I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has
been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some
direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat.
Here is my scenario:

My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both
sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that
of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a
boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a
couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters
(pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he
could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's
idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids,
and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently
enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our
daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would
never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think
the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the
boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for
example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in
moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed).

The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I
won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their
father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm
determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us.
Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes
out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort
through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.

I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish
all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting
pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season
is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and
swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's
time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If
we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better.

I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at
home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located
on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the
next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Elizabeth

Elizabeth, your experience is not at all uncommon. But you have a desire to
learn, and that will carry you through with a proper instructor. You
mentioned that your local classes are taught in small boats -- you can and
will learn a LOT about sailing in dinghies. You are responsible for
everything on the small boats, and have to learn how to steer, trim sails,
hoist and dowse sails and trim the boat -- sometimes all at the same time.
Learning how to sail dinghies will give you a boatload of confidence in
handling larger keel boats.

Mostly, though, you need to find an instructor who is competent to teach.
Clearly your husband doesn't fit the bill.
You might look into the National Women's Sailing Association at
www.womensailing.org

Karin

wrote in message
ups.com...
I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has
been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some
direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat.
Here is my scenario:

My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both
sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that
of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a
boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a
couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters
(pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he
could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's
idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids,
and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently
enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our
daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would
never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think
the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the
boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for
example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in
moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed).

The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I
won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their
father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm
determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us.
Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes
out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort
through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.

I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish
all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting
pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season
is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and
swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's
time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If
we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better.

I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at
home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located
on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the
next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Elizabeth

wrote in message
ups.com...
I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has
been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some
direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat.
Here is my scenario:

My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both
sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that
of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a
boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a
couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters
(pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he
could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's
idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids,
and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently
enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our
daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would
never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think
the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the
boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for
example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in
moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed).

This is not atypical in family dynamics. I teach sailing (SF area) and I
would never attempt to teach someone in my immediate family or even in my
immediate circle of friends. Even though I don't yell (a bad idea unless
you're trying to be heard), there's too much interpersonal history to
overcome. Sailing, especially learning to sail, should be fun and
low-stress. This is nearly impossible when being taught by a spouse or close
friend. I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband, but
he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as
experienced as you claim, then he should know better.

The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I
won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their
father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm
determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us.
Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes
out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort
through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.

Books aren't going to do it. You need to take sailing lessons from someone,
typically in a school setting. I'm not familiar with your area, but if
possible, find a school that specializes in teaching women *by* women. If
that's not possible, then make sure the instructor doesn't do what your
husband did. There should be no yelling. Instruction should be clear, calm,
and thorough. All questions (there are no dumb ones, just dumb answers)
should be answered. If for example, a student asks me a question I can't
answer, I respond with "I don't know, but I'll find out and get back to
you." And, I do!

Docking and leaving the dock is one of the more difficult aspects of
"sailing." Your instructor should spend an adequate amount of time going
over engine and docking techniques, including docking under sail alone (in
case the engine dies when you're coming in).

I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish
all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting
pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season
is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and
swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's
time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If
we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better.

Don't worry... you won't be, but you do need basic instruction, confidence
building (which many women, young and old, seem to lack from time to time),
and time on the water, the latter of which is the ultimate teacher.

I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at
home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located
on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the
next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Elizabeth


Books are great, but ultimately sailing is what counts. In a cult-classic
film call "Captain Ron," the protagonist says, "If it's going to happen,
it's going to happen out there," and that's absolutely true. Take a look at
some of USSailing's books, e.g., Basic Keelboat, or one of ASA's books,
e.g., Sailing Fundamentals. We use both of them in our programs out here.
They give good, basic explanations of most everything you need to know
about, but again, the most important thing is to find a good instructor (and
if you find a lousy one, dump him or her) and get out on the water.

I hope this helps....

Jonathan

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

This is an all too common story. I'm afraid that I must tell you that what
is going on here has absolutely NOTHING to do with boats or seamanship. You
and your daughters could become prime candidates for America's Cup crew
positions and things would not improve much. Don't distract yourself from
the real issues here by trying to become sailors that meet your husband's
standards.

This is a 26 foot boat. Your husband should be able to get it in and out of
the slip and do everything required to take it anywhere it has any business
going with no one else on board. I do it all the time on my 32 footer and
others do it with larger boats. Generally, when "captains" are yelling, it
is because they don't feel in control. I'm quite sure your husband doesn't
feel nearly as competent as you describe him. Even if he does, then the
boat has become a venue where he feels it is legitimate for him to berate
and belittle you and your daughters. The fact that he is taking such great
advantage of that illusion is something that smoother line handling is not
going to fix.

Boats tend to become stages that magnify and bring to the surface the
underlying dynamics. Believe me, I know that from recent experience. You
need to get a handle, as a family, why he would treat you and your daughters
like this in any situation. This is NOT happening because you are a little
inexperienced and clutzy at handling docklines.

To the very minimal extent that seamanship has anything to do with this, you
are also focusing on the wrong end of the problem. Your husband should go
out and sail alone, a lot, until he is so smooth and comfortable handling
the boat without help that he can integrate teaching you into the process.

A week long intensive course should make you and your daughters sufficiently
competent to cruise in this boat if you exercise good judgement and respect
the limitations of your experience. You would, at least, be more competent
than 85% of the other people out there in 26 foot sailboats.

By all means, go out and learn everything you can and become a completely
competent sailor. Have your daughters do it with you. Just keep it in your
mind that you are doing it for yourselves as one of the most worthwhile and
bonding things you could do with the girls and that it has NOTHING to do
with changing your husband's behavior. Then go out and go sailing without
him.

--
Roger Long

Elizabeth,

Sorry to hear about your "learning" experience so far, and good for
you for having the determination to keep going.

I would suggest taking the small boat instruction available near you.
Small boats handle like big ones, but respond quicker. And since they
are 1 person boats, you (and your daughters) learn how to be the
captain for real. Once you can sail a small boat the bigger boat will
be easy. Docking isn't as hard as it looks, if you take it slow and
easy.

Learn the basic rules of the road. Don't worry about the complicated
ones.

If you can take a week long course, do it. Me and my girlfriend did a
week a Jworld when I started taking her sailing, it was a very
thorough course (http://www.jworldschool.com/).

Sail the small boats, then keep at it.
Todd

There is a yacht charter in Chicago's Bellmont Harbor that also teaches,
possibly in larger boats than your local school
Michigan City Sailboat Charter (I think I have the name correct) also give
classes in boats up to 39 ft, last time I was there.


"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et...
Elizabeth, your experience is not at all uncommon. But you have a desire
to learn, and that will carry you through with a proper instructor. You
mentioned that your local classes are taught in small boats -- you can and
will learn a LOT about sailing in dinghies. You are responsible for
everything on the small boats, and have to learn how to steer, trim sails,
hoist and dowse sails and trim the boat -- sometimes all at the same time.
Learning how to sail dinghies will give you a boatload of confidence in
handling larger keel boats.

Mostly, though, you need to find an instructor who is competent to teach.
Clearly your husband doesn't fit the bill.
You might look into the National Women's Sailing Association at
www.womensailing.org

Karin

wrote in message
ups.com...
I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has
been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some
direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat.
Here is my scenario:

My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both
sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that
of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a
boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a
couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters
(pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he
could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's
idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids,
and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently
enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our
daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would
never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think
the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the
boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for
example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in
moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed).

The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I
won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their
father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm
determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us.
Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes
out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort
through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.

I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish
all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting
pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season
is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and
swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's
time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If
we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better.

I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at
home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located
on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the
next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Elizabeth

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:19:16 -0000, wrote:

I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has
been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some
direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat.
Here is my scenario:

My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both
sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that
of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a
boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a
couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters
(pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he
could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's
idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids,
and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently
enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our
daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would
never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think
the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the
boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for
example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in
moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed).

The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I
won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their
father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm
determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us.
Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes
out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort
through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.

I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish
all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting
pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season
is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and
swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's
time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If
we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better.

I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at
home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located
on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the
next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Elizabeth

While it probably isn't of much direct help, let me offer my own
experiences in trying to teach my wife to drive.

We went through exactly the same cycles that your family is. Me
directing and her trying to comply. Ultimately shrieking and tears.

One of the main reasons is, I think, lack of communication, "Push in
the clutch!" "Clutch?"" Does he mean "grab it?" "Shift into first
gear" "Is that first one to the left, or first on the right?"

I was in the military and got reassigned overseas for a short period.
Because of the kids, schools, etc., it was decided that I would do an
unaccompanied tour and the wife & kids would stay at home.

While I was gone my wife went out and enrolled in a driver training
course, graduated, got her license and was driving around like a demon
when I returned home.In fact she was driving well enough that I didn't
mind ridding shotgun with her.

That is one family's tory.

If it is impossible to take lessons then another alternative is group
discussions BEFORE whatever it is, is done. Raising anchors can be
explained in steps, "You stand by until you see the anchor coming out
of the water and then holler, "STOP". "You take that hose; the one on
the left, there, and wash the mud off the chain." If y'all know what
you're supposed to do there is less screaming and hollering.

Hang in there and remember, sailing IS fun!






Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:19:16 -0000, wrote:

....The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.
....
Elizabeth


Sailing a small dinghy on all points of sail would be a very good
basis for something bigger. It's easy to suppose your husband is a
jerk, but the story is quite familiar from reading about wives and
daughters attempting to learn to drive a car by instruction from
Dad....
It often gives miserable results, though it can work out.

You badly need an instructor whom you are paying, who will treat you
and the kids as a customer - i.e. with civility.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:59:30 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

.... I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband, but
he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as
experienced as you claim, then he should know better.
....
Jonathan

This may be a key point: the 'experienced' folks who are full of
bluster may possibly have an exaggerated view of their
competence. In training horses, I know that patience trumps
almost any other virtue. It may possibly be similar with instructors?

:-)

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

I have nothing to do with this organization. But, they list 4 places in
Illinois and 6 place in Wisconsin that offer lessons.

http://www.american-sailing.com/find...ng_school.html