I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has
been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some
direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat.
Here is my scenario:

My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both
sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that
of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a
boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a
couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters
(pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he
could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's
idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids,
and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently
enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our
daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would
never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think
the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the
boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for
example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in
moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed).

The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I
won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their
father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm
determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us.
Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes
out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort
through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.

I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish
all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting
pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season
is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and
swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's
time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If
we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better.

I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at
home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located
on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the
next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Elizabeth

Elizabeth, your experience is not at all uncommon. But you have a desire to
learn, and that will carry you through with a proper instructor. You
mentioned that your local classes are taught in small boats -- you can and
will learn a LOT about sailing in dinghies. You are responsible for
everything on the small boats, and have to learn how to steer, trim sails,
hoist and dowse sails and trim the boat -- sometimes all at the same time.
Learning how to sail dinghies will give you a boatload of confidence in
handling larger keel boats.

Mostly, though, you need to find an instructor who is competent to teach.
Clearly your husband doesn't fit the bill.
You might look into the National Women's Sailing Association at
www.womensailing.org

Karin

wrote in message
ups.com...
I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has
been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some
direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat.
Here is my scenario:

My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both
sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that
of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a
boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a
couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters
(pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he
could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's
idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids,
and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently
enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our
daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would
never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think
the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the
boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for
example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in
moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed).

The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I
won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their
father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm
determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us.
Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes
out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort
through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.

I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish
all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting
pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season
is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and
swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's
time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If
we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better.

I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at
home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located
on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the
next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Elizabeth

There is a yacht charter in Chicago's Bellmont Harbor that also teaches,
possibly in larger boats than your local school
Michigan City Sailboat Charter (I think I have the name correct) also give
classes in boats up to 39 ft, last time I was there.


"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et...
Elizabeth, your experience is not at all uncommon. But you have a desire
to learn, and that will carry you through with a proper instructor. You
mentioned that your local classes are taught in small boats -- you can and
will learn a LOT about sailing in dinghies. You are responsible for
everything on the small boats, and have to learn how to steer, trim sails,
hoist and dowse sails and trim the boat -- sometimes all at the same time.
Learning how to sail dinghies will give you a boatload of confidence in
handling larger keel boats.

Mostly, though, you need to find an instructor who is competent to teach.
Clearly your husband doesn't fit the bill.
You might look into the National Women's Sailing Association at
www.womensailing.org

Karin

wrote in message
ups.com...
I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has
been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some
direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat.
Here is my scenario:

My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both
sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that
of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a
boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a
couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters
(pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he
could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's
idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids,
and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently
enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our
daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would
never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think
the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the
boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for
example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in
moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed).

The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I
won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their
father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm
determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us.
Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes
out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort
through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.

I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish
all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting
pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season
is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and
swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's
time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If
we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better.

I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at
home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located
on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the
next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Elizabeth

wrote in message
ups.com...
I've been reading this newsgroup for the past year while rehabbing a
24', swing-keel sailboat, and the information that I've gleaned has
been invaluable. I'm hoping now that you can provide me with some
direction in obtaining the instruction I'll require to sail this boat.
Here is my scenario:

My husband is a life-long boater, with extensive experience in both
sailing and powerboating. My experience as a boater is primarily that
of a powerboat passenger -- in other words, minimal. We rehabbed a
boat to sail as a family, a boat into which I have personally put a
couple hundred hours worth of work. I asked my husband if my daughters
(pre-teen) and I should take sailing lessons, and he replied that he
could teach us everything that we needed to know. Well, my husband's
idea of sailing instruction was barking orders at his wife and kids,
and then yelling at us when we didn't do it fast enough or confidently
enough. After a handful of fsailing excursions ending with our
daughters huddling in tears in the cabin, he told us that he would
never sail with us again and that we'd ruined sailing for him. I think
the primary issue for me and my daughters is comfort level on the
boat. The experiences are new to us, and it's difficult to, for
example, to be immediately comfortable hoisting the mainsail in
moderate - heavy chop (we do it, just not with great speed).

This is not atypical in family dynamics. I teach sailing (SF area) and I
would never attempt to teach someone in my immediate family or even in my
immediate circle of friends. Even though I don't yell (a bad idea unless
you're trying to be heard), there's too much interpersonal history to
overcome. Sailing, especially learning to sail, should be fun and
low-stress. This is nearly impossible when being taught by a spouse or close
friend. I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband, but
he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as
experienced as you claim, then he should know better.

The boat was something that we were looking forward to as a family. I
won't teach my kids that it's ok to quit at this just because their
father has determined that we're "incompetent" on the boat. I'm
determined to prove him wrong. The problem is that he won't help us.
Here's where I need some direction. There are a lot of boating classes
out there, and the pros and cons of each are difficult to sort
through. The sailing classes that I've located in our immediate area
use tiny little one person sailboats for instruction. This seems
inappropriate for us, since we've all read up on and experienced,
albeit to a small extent, the basic principles and logistics sailing
our particular boat. The biggest challenge we face at the moment is
getting the boat in and our of our slip at the marina... without that
ability, we're stuck in our lawn chairs hanging out at the dock. It
seems as though my immediate needs include boat handling, safety,
rules of the water and such.

Books aren't going to do it. You need to take sailing lessons from someone,
typically in a school setting. I'm not familiar with your area, but if
possible, find a school that specializes in teaching women *by* women. If
that's not possible, then make sure the instructor doesn't do what your
husband did. There should be no yelling. Instruction should be clear, calm,
and thorough. All questions (there are no dumb ones, just dumb answers)
should be answered. If for example, a student asks me a question I can't
answer, I respond with "I don't know, but I'll find out and get back to
you." And, I do!

Docking and leaving the dock is one of the more difficult aspects of
"sailing." Your instructor should spend an adequate amount of time going
over engine and docking techniques, including docking under sail alone (in
case the engine dies when you're coming in).

I know that there is a lot to learn, and I don't expect to accomplish
all of this in a hurry, but I could sure use some help getting
pointed in the right direction. My only goal for the end of the season
is to get us out of the marina so that we can at least drop anchor and
swim a little. We don't have to be sailing pros within a few month's
time... just one small success will tide us over until next season. If
we manage to accomplish more, then that's all the better.

Don't worry... you won't be, but you do need basic instruction, confidence
building (which many women, young and old, seem to lack from time to time),
and time on the water, the latter of which is the ultimate teacher.

I currently have the electronic version of America's Boating Course at
home and I'm working my way through it as a first step. We are located
on the Illinois-Wisconsin border. What's your recommendation for the
next step? Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Elizabeth


Books are great, but ultimately sailing is what counts. In a cult-classic
film call "Captain Ron," the protagonist says, "If it's going to happen,
it's going to happen out there," and that's absolutely true. Take a look at
some of USSailing's books, e.g., Basic Keelboat, or one of ASA's books,
e.g., Sailing Fundamentals. We use both of them in our programs out here.
They give good, basic explanations of most everything you need to know
about, but again, the most important thing is to find a good instructor (and
if you find a lousy one, dump him or her) and get out on the water.

I hope this helps....

Jonathan

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:59:30 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

.... I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband, but
he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as
experienced as you claim, then he should know better.
....
Jonathan

This may be a key point: the 'experienced' folks who are full of
bluster may possibly have an exaggerated view of their
competence. In training horses, I know that patience trumps
almost any other virtue. It may possibly be similar with instructors?

:-)

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:59:30 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

.... I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband, but
he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as
experienced as you claim, then he should know better.
...
Jonathan

This may be a key point: the 'experienced' folks who are full of
bluster may possibly have an exaggerated view of their
competence. In training horses, I know that patience trumps
almost any other virtue. It may possibly be similar with instructors?

:-)

Brian Whatcott Altus OK


For sure... those who yell or bully usually don't know as much as they claim
to know.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 2007-08-01 21:33:40 -0400, Brian Whatcott said:

On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:59:30 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

.... I don't want to be in the business of putting down your husband,
but he certainly has no business doing what you say he did. If he's as
experienced as you claim, then he should know better.
...
Jonathan

This may be a key point: the 'experienced' folks who are full of
bluster may possibly have an exaggerated view of their competence.

I agree with this and the one I can't find now about he should be able
to comfortably single-hand the boat if he's competent. We essentially
single-hand Xan (below) most of time, the off-helm person is on
stand-by in case things go south.

Thought: Why not have "Girls" and "Guys" days?

Another thought to make docking easier: Tie or splice loops into the
dock lines right where they need to be. The dock crew merely drops the
line on the cleats, no adjusting. One of those lines should be a spring
line from the "inside" outer piling that the helm can drop on a winch.
That keeps the bow off of the dock and by turning the tiller or
outboard in slow forward gear, the bow can be swung from side to side
to ease the dock crew's job. When that one line is on, the boat's
safely in the slip.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

This is an all too common story. I'm afraid that I must tell you that what
is going on here has absolutely NOTHING to do with boats or seamanship. You
and your daughters could become prime candidates for America's Cup crew
positions and things would not improve much. Don't distract yourself from
the real issues here by trying to become sailors that meet your husband's
standards.

This is a 26 foot boat. Your husband should be able to get it in and out of
the slip and do everything required to take it anywhere it has any business
going with no one else on board. I do it all the time on my 32 footer and
others do it with larger boats. Generally, when "captains" are yelling, it
is because they don't feel in control. I'm quite sure your husband doesn't
feel nearly as competent as you describe him. Even if he does, then the
boat has become a venue where he feels it is legitimate for him to berate
and belittle you and your daughters. The fact that he is taking such great
advantage of that illusion is something that smoother line handling is not
going to fix.

Boats tend to become stages that magnify and bring to the surface the
underlying dynamics. Believe me, I know that from recent experience. You
need to get a handle, as a family, why he would treat you and your daughters
like this in any situation. This is NOT happening because you are a little
inexperienced and clutzy at handling docklines.

To the very minimal extent that seamanship has anything to do with this, you
are also focusing on the wrong end of the problem. Your husband should go
out and sail alone, a lot, until he is so smooth and comfortable handling
the boat without help that he can integrate teaching you into the process.

A week long intensive course should make you and your daughters sufficiently
competent to cruise in this boat if you exercise good judgement and respect
the limitations of your experience. You would, at least, be more competent
than 85% of the other people out there in 26 foot sailboats.

By all means, go out and learn everything you can and become a completely
competent sailor. Have your daughters do it with you. Just keep it in your
mind that you are doing it for yourselves as one of the most worthwhile and
bonding things you could do with the girls and that it has NOTHING to do
with changing your husband's behavior. Then go out and go sailing without
him.

--
Roger Long

On 2007-08-01 13:19:23 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

By all means, go out and learn everything you can and become a completely
competent sailor. Have your daughters do it with you. Just keep it in your
mind that you are doing it for yourselves as one of the most worthwhile and
bonding things you could do with the girls and that it has NOTHING to do
with changing your husband's behavior. Then go out and go sailing without
him.

That is great advice. I suspect you and your daughters will have a far
better time sailing without your spouse than with him!

Ruby

Wanted to restate bits of Rogers Long's advice, to highlight my belief
he nailed this one right on the head.

=======
PART 1
=======

On Aug 1, 1:19 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
This is a 26 foot boat. Your husband should be able to get it in and out of
the slip and do everything required to take it anywhere it has any business
going with no one else on board. I do it all the time on my 32 footer and
others do it with larger boats. Generally, when "captains" are yelling, it
is because they don't feel in control. I'm quite sure your husband doesn't
feel nearly as competent as you describe him. Even if he does, then the
boat has become a venue where he feels it is legitimate for him to berate
and belittle you and your daughters. The fact that he is taking such great
advantage of that illusion is something that smoother line handling is not
going to fix.

Your husband should go
out and sail alone, a lot, until he is so smooth and comfortable handling
the boat without help that he can integrate teaching you into the process.

Absolutely Roger !!! - The whole problem here is with him, and Sailing
alone is
just the right medicine. If he feels he cannot, get him the instructor
first, not you!!

Perhaps you can talk him into custom instruction for the skill of
"single handing"
the boat. If he thinks of this as a "new" skill he dosn't have,
perhaps the thought
that his experience somehow exempts him from the need for a teacher
won't occur.
Once he can confidently sail this boat alone, he can as roger wrote,
"integrate
you and your daughters into the process"

For me, it only took a single 4 hour on the water lesson from an
instructor to learn how
to singlehand a 23 foot Sonar that had all the necessary cleats in
place to sail the
boat that way.

There are some single handed sailing web sites that also give useful
advise on how
to sail alone too.


=======
PART 2
=======

A week long intensive course should make you and your daughters sufficiently
competent to cruise in this boat if you exercise good judgement and respect
the limitations of your experience. You would, at least, be more competent
than 85% of the other people out there in 26 foot sailboats.


I would add to this, once you take the class, without delay get you
and your daughters into a situation where you are
taking the boat out yourselves once a week, and even better, get into
an informal racing group. An informal racing group
, beer can racing we call it, are welcoming to new crew all the time,
most can laugh at mistakes rather then feel put
crew in the position of feeling they lost a critical race, and really
helps cement the class instruction to the inside of your scull.
You might also end up with different captain each week, or take turns
being the captain yourself.

The big benefit of racing, and the purpose it gives to good rather
then just ok sail handling, is that you will find yourself
anticipating what has to happen next before it does. Once your at that
level, you will find it more enjoyable to
be with your husband. Imagine if you know what he might ask you to do
next, and what around you might
prevent you from doing it correct that you should fix ahead of time,
becomes much easier to be a crew member.
My best crew members figure out what I forgot to ask them to do, and
either drop suggestions or just mention that they are doing
it. As a captain ... it's much more fun when your crew is covering
for your ommisions of commands. It feels less like your giving
commands and more like your all working together to get the boat
moving.


Best Wishes for succesful Family Sailing !