Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Correct. But that does that make those statements "invalid"?

Yes.

Expound please.
Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

My 'read' from your statment is that perhaps you miss the functional
point of a recirculation filtration system - which is using a filter of
LARGE pore/rentention size to eventually wind up with a fluid with very
few very small particles.

A recirc filter only removes a paltry few percent of the 'target' size
particles (for example 5% of 2uM particles.). A large pore size filter
will have very little resistance to flow, will have more permeability
(open space), will have more ultimate 'dirt capacity'. If you pass the
fluid 20 times through the filter, you will remove approximately a
value approaching 100% of the target particles. With the same pump, a
LARGE filter is be able to pass a LARGE volume very quickly, whereas
2uM filter will take longer (due to resistance to flow - pump slows
down or starts to slip and fluid begins to bypass the vanes, etc. ).

For single pass filtration (and without knowing the particle size
distribution) one typically needs a prefilter of the same surface area
(or dirt capacity) that is 5 times the size of the final filter.
eg.: 10uM followed by 2uM, where the prefilter is used to prolong the
life of the final filter. This is somewhat simplistic. When you
design a filtration system with a prefilter or multistage prefilters
one typically attempts to make ALL the filters fail at the exact same
time - so maximum debris is removed and the cost of change is minimized
- and you dont throw away filters that still have some capture ability
left in them.



Why not just always leave the polishing system in-line? Allow for a
bypass to change a filter or if it develops a vacuum leak, but other
then that, there's nothing wrong with always using "just polished" fuel.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

My 'read' from your statment is that perhaps you miss the functional
point of a recirculation filtration system - which is using a filter of
LARGE pore/rentention size to eventually wind up with a fluid with very
few very small particles.

A recirc filter only removes a paltry few percent of the 'target' size
particles (for example 5% of 2uM particles.). A large pore size filter
will have very little resistance to flow, will have more permeability
(open space), will have more ultimate 'dirt capacity'. If you pass the
fluid 20 times through the filter, you will remove approximately a
value approaching 100% of the target particles. With the same pump, a
LARGE filter is be able to pass a LARGE volume very quickly, whereas
2uM filter will take longer (due to resistance to flow - pump slows
down or starts to slip and fluid begins to bypass the vanes, etc. ).

For single pass filtration (and without knowing the particle size
distribution) one typically needs a prefilter of the same surface area
(or dirt capacity) that is 5 times the size of the final filter.
eg.: 10uM followed by 2uM, where the prefilter is used to prolong the
life of the final filter. This is somewhat simplistic. When you
design a filtration system with a prefilter or multistage prefilters
one typically attempts to make ALL the filters fail at the exact same
time - so maximum debris is removed and the cost of change is minimized
- and you dont throw away filters that still have some capture ability
left in them.



Why not just always leave the polishing system in-line? Allow for a
bypass to change a filter or if it develops a vacuum leak, but other
then that, there's nothing wrong with always using "just polished" fuel.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Doug Dotson wrote:

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing.

That's called "Godwins Law". From
http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/g/GodwinsLaw.html

Godwin's Law /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread
is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever
argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the
existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Doug Dotson wrote:

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing.

That's called "Godwins Law". From
http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/g/GodwinsLaw.html

Godwin's Law /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread
is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever
argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the
existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

If there isn't already, there should be one that states: "The usefulness of
a thread is inversely proportional to it's length."

"Michael Kelly" wrote in message
...
Doug Dotson wrote:

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal
insults
start appearing.

That's called "Godwins Law". From
http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/g/GodwinsLaw.html

Godwin's Law /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread
is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever
argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the
existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

If there isn't already, there should be one that states: "The usefulness of
a thread is inversely proportional to it's length."

"Michael Kelly" wrote in message
...
Doug Dotson wrote:

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal
insults
start appearing.

That's called "Godwins Law". From
http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/g/GodwinsLaw.html

Godwin's Law /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread
is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever
argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the
existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:28:01 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:
Why not just always leave the polishing system in-line? Allow for a
bypass to change a filter or if it develops a vacuum leak, but other
then that, there's nothing wrong with always using "just polished" fuel.

My 'read' from your statment is that perhaps you miss the functional
point of a recirculation filtration system - which is using a filter of
LARGE pore/rentention size to eventually wind up with a fluid with very
few very small particles.

A recirc filter only removes a paltry few percent of the 'target' size
particles (for example 5% of 2uM particles.). A large pore size filter
will have very little resistance to flow, will have more permeability
(open space), will have more ultimate 'dirt capacity'. If you pass the
fluid 20 times through the filter, you will remove approximately a
value approaching 100% of the target particles. With the same pump, a
LARGE filter is be able to pass a LARGE volume very quickly, whereas
2uM filter will take longer (due to resistance to flow - pump slows
down or starts to slip and fluid begins to bypass the vanes, etc. ).

Actually, I do understand that it's best to recirculate fuel many times
through the polishing system. That is what I do. But the engine has to
draw fuel from somewhere and I don't see why it's not better to draw
fuel from the outlet of the polishing system and always leave it on
while the engine is running (most of the flow from the system goes back
to the tank to be recirculated anyway) then to draw fuel directly from
the tank. Doing it this way allows for the most fuel passes through the
polishing system since it's running more often and because you get that
"one last time through" that you wouldn't get if you draw from the tank.

For single pass filtration (and without knowing the particle size
distribution) one typically needs a prefilter of the same surface area
(or dirt capacity) that is 5 times the size of the final filter.
eg.: 10uM followed by 2uM, where the prefilter is used to prolong the
life of the final filter. This is somewhat simplistic. When you
design a filtration system with a prefilter or multistage prefilters
one typically attempts to make ALL the filters fail at the exact same
time - so maximum debris is removed and the cost of change is minimized
- and you dont throw away filters that still have some capture ability
left in them.

Well, since we're talking about a polishing system and not single pass
filtration, the above may not be applicable. But for a recirculating
polishing system on our own boat where we do the filter changes
ourselves, to make it most cost effective I'd design it not so that all
of the filters fail at the exact same time but that the cost of
filtering of each stage in a multistage system is the same. That is, if
your second stage filter element costs 10x the first stage filter
element I'd want that second stage element to last 10x longer before it
needs to be replaced to be as cost effective.

If you monitor each stage with independent vacuum gauges you won't be
throwing away filters that still have some capture ability left in them.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:28:01 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:
Why not just always leave the polishing system in-line? Allow for a
bypass to change a filter or if it develops a vacuum leak, but other
then that, there's nothing wrong with always using "just polished" fuel.

My 'read' from your statment is that perhaps you miss the functional
point of a recirculation filtration system - which is using a filter of
LARGE pore/rentention size to eventually wind up with a fluid with very
few very small particles.

A recirc filter only removes a paltry few percent of the 'target' size
particles (for example 5% of 2uM particles.). A large pore size filter
will have very little resistance to flow, will have more permeability
(open space), will have more ultimate 'dirt capacity'. If you pass the
fluid 20 times through the filter, you will remove approximately a
value approaching 100% of the target particles. With the same pump, a
LARGE filter is be able to pass a LARGE volume very quickly, whereas
2uM filter will take longer (due to resistance to flow - pump slows
down or starts to slip and fluid begins to bypass the vanes, etc. ).

Actually, I do understand that it's best to recirculate fuel many times
through the polishing system. That is what I do. But the engine has to
draw fuel from somewhere and I don't see why it's not better to draw
fuel from the outlet of the polishing system and always leave it on
while the engine is running (most of the flow from the system goes back
to the tank to be recirculated anyway) then to draw fuel directly from
the tank. Doing it this way allows for the most fuel passes through the
polishing system since it's running more often and because you get that
"one last time through" that you wouldn't get if you draw from the tank.

For single pass filtration (and without knowing the particle size
distribution) one typically needs a prefilter of the same surface area
(or dirt capacity) that is 5 times the size of the final filter.
eg.: 10uM followed by 2uM, where the prefilter is used to prolong the
life of the final filter. This is somewhat simplistic. When you
design a filtration system with a prefilter or multistage prefilters
one typically attempts to make ALL the filters fail at the exact same
time - so maximum debris is removed and the cost of change is minimized
- and you dont throw away filters that still have some capture ability
left in them.

Well, since we're talking about a polishing system and not single pass
filtration, the above may not be applicable. But for a recirculating
polishing system on our own boat where we do the filter changes
ourselves, to make it most cost effective I'd design it not so that all
of the filters fail at the exact same time but that the cost of
filtering of each stage in a multistage system is the same. That is, if
your second stage filter element costs 10x the first stage filter
element I'd want that second stage element to last 10x longer before it
needs to be replaced to be as cost effective.

If you monitor each stage with independent vacuum gauges you won't be
throwing away filters that still have some capture ability left in them.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Steve,

I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing
I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the
other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move
fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the
depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that
advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the
TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from
your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of
shedding
right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on
a subsequent pass or by the engine filters.

Doug

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Steve,

I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing
I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the
other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move
fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the
depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that
advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the
TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from
your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of
shedding
right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on
a subsequent pass or by the engine filters.

Doug

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied
that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit
that it was intended, that being a joke.

It seems you can't take a joke.

Seems that you can't either.

Not to mention your poor reading in context skills.

We all make mistakes. It was a mistake that you made that
led to this sillyness. I just tried to make light of your mistake.

As to useful information put forth, same to you. :-)

I started this thread to gather information.

Good luck with your "polishing" system.

Thanks. I think it will work well.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied
that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit
that it was intended, that being a joke.

It seems you can't take a joke.

Seems that you can't either.

Not to mention your poor reading in context skills.

We all make mistakes. It was a mistake that you made that
led to this sillyness. I just tried to make light of your mistake.

As to useful information put forth, same to you. :-)

I started this thread to gather information.

Good luck with your "polishing" system.

Thanks. I think it will work well.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

You are correct !!!
Most folks dont realize that a filter isnt a 'screen door' .... it
can pass particulate LARGER than the 'rating'.
:-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:28:01 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:
Why not just always leave the polishing system in-line? Allow for a
bypass to change a filter or if it develops a vacuum leak, but other
then that, there's nothing wrong with always using "just polished" fuel.

My 'read' from your statment is that perhaps you miss the functional
point of a recirculation filtration system - which is using a filter of
LARGE pore/rentention size to eventually wind up with a fluid with very
few very small particles.

A recirc filter only removes a paltry few percent of the 'target' size
particles (for example 5% of 2uM particles.). A large pore size filter
will have very little resistance to flow, will have more permeability
(open space), will have more ultimate 'dirt capacity'. If you pass the
fluid 20 times through the filter, you will remove approximately a
value approaching 100% of the target particles. With the same pump, a
LARGE filter is be able to pass a LARGE volume very quickly, whereas
2uM filter will take longer (due to resistance to flow - pump slows
down or starts to slip and fluid begins to bypass the vanes, etc. ).

Actually, I do understand that it's best to recirculate fuel many times
through the polishing system. That is what I do. But the engine has to
draw fuel from somewhere and I don't see why it's not better to draw
fuel from the outlet of the polishing system and always leave it on
while the engine is running (most of the flow from the system goes back
to the tank to be recirculated anyway) then to draw fuel directly from
the tank. Doing it this way allows for the most fuel passes through the
polishing system since it's running more often and because you get that
"one last time through" that you wouldn't get if you draw from the tank.

For single pass filtration (and without knowing the particle size
distribution) one typically needs a prefilter of the same surface area
(or dirt capacity) that is 5 times the size of the final filter.
eg.: 10uM followed by 2uM, where the prefilter is used to prolong the
life of the final filter. This is somewhat simplistic. When you
design a filtration system with a prefilter or multistage prefilters
one typically attempts to make ALL the filters fail at the exact same
time - so maximum debris is removed and the cost of change is minimized
- and you dont throw away filters that still have some capture ability
left in them.

Well, since we're talking about a polishing system and not single pass
filtration, the above may not be applicable. But for a recirculating
polishing system on our own boat where we do the filter changes
ourselves, to make it most cost effective I'd design it not so that all
of the filters fail at the exact same time but that the cost of
filtering of each stage in a multistage system is the same. That is, if
your second stage filter element costs 10x the first stage filter
element I'd want that second stage element to last 10x longer before it
needs to be replaced to be as cost effective.

If you monitor each stage with independent vacuum gauges you won't be
throwing away filters that still have some capture ability left in them.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

You are correct !!!
Most folks dont realize that a filter isnt a 'screen door' .... it
can pass particulate LARGER than the 'rating'.
:-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:28:01 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:
Why not just always leave the polishing system in-line? Allow for a
bypass to change a filter or if it develops a vacuum leak, but other
then that, there's nothing wrong with always using "just polished" fuel.

My 'read' from your statment is that perhaps you miss the functional
point of a recirculation filtration system - which is using a filter of
LARGE pore/rentention size to eventually wind up with a fluid with very
few very small particles.

A recirc filter only removes a paltry few percent of the 'target' size
particles (for example 5% of 2uM particles.). A large pore size filter
will have very little resistance to flow, will have more permeability
(open space), will have more ultimate 'dirt capacity'. If you pass the
fluid 20 times through the filter, you will remove approximately a
value approaching 100% of the target particles. With the same pump, a
LARGE filter is be able to pass a LARGE volume very quickly, whereas
2uM filter will take longer (due to resistance to flow - pump slows
down or starts to slip and fluid begins to bypass the vanes, etc. ).

Actually, I do understand that it's best to recirculate fuel many times
through the polishing system. That is what I do. But the engine has to
draw fuel from somewhere and I don't see why it's not better to draw
fuel from the outlet of the polishing system and always leave it on
while the engine is running (most of the flow from the system goes back
to the tank to be recirculated anyway) then to draw fuel directly from
the tank. Doing it this way allows for the most fuel passes through the
polishing system since it's running more often and because you get that
"one last time through" that you wouldn't get if you draw from the tank.

For single pass filtration (and without knowing the particle size
distribution) one typically needs a prefilter of the same surface area
(or dirt capacity) that is 5 times the size of the final filter.
eg.: 10uM followed by 2uM, where the prefilter is used to prolong the
life of the final filter. This is somewhat simplistic. When you
design a filtration system with a prefilter or multistage prefilters
one typically attempts to make ALL the filters fail at the exact same
time - so maximum debris is removed and the cost of change is minimized
- and you dont throw away filters that still have some capture ability
left in them.

Well, since we're talking about a polishing system and not single pass
filtration, the above may not be applicable. But for a recirculating
polishing system on our own boat where we do the filter changes
ourselves, to make it most cost effective I'd design it not so that all
of the filters fail at the exact same time but that the cost of
filtering of each stage in a multistage system is the same. That is, if
your second stage filter element costs 10x the first stage filter
element I'd want that second stage element to last 10x longer before it
needs to be replaced to be as cost effective.

If you monitor each stage with independent vacuum gauges you won't be
throwing away filters that still have some capture ability left in them.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Rich,

What do you recommend for a depth filter rather then the TP ot PT
filters?

Doug

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
You are correct !!!
Most folks dont realize that a filter isnt a 'screen door' .... it
can pass particulate LARGER than the 'rating'.
:-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:28:01 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:
Why not just always leave the polishing system in-line? Allow for a
bypass to change a filter or if it develops a vacuum leak, but other
then that, there's nothing wrong with always using "just polished"
fuel.

My 'read' from your statment is that perhaps you miss the functional
point of a recirculation filtration system - which is using a filter of
LARGE pore/rentention size to eventually wind up with a fluid with very
few very small particles.

A recirc filter only removes a paltry few percent of the 'target' size
particles (for example 5% of 2uM particles.). A large pore size filter
will have very little resistance to flow, will have more permeability
(open space), will have more ultimate 'dirt capacity'. If you pass the
fluid 20 times through the filter, you will remove approximately a
value approaching 100% of the target particles. With the same pump, a
LARGE filter is be able to pass a LARGE volume very quickly, whereas
2uM filter will take longer (due to resistance to flow - pump slows
down or starts to slip and fluid begins to bypass the vanes, etc. ).

Actually, I do understand that it's best to recirculate fuel many times
through the polishing system. That is what I do. But the engine has to
draw fuel from somewhere and I don't see why it's not better to draw
fuel from the outlet of the polishing system and always leave it on
while the engine is running (most of the flow from the system goes back
to the tank to be recirculated anyway) then to draw fuel directly from
the tank. Doing it this way allows for the most fuel passes through the
polishing system since it's running more often and because you get that
"one last time through" that you wouldn't get if you draw from the tank.

For single pass filtration (and without knowing the particle size
distribution) one typically needs a prefilter of the same surface area
(or dirt capacity) that is 5 times the size of the final filter.
eg.: 10uM followed by 2uM, where the prefilter is used to prolong the
life of the final filter. This is somewhat simplistic. When you
design a filtration system with a prefilter or multistage prefilters
one typically attempts to make ALL the filters fail at the exact same
time - so maximum debris is removed and the cost of change is minimized
- and you dont throw away filters that still have some capture ability
left in them.

Well, since we're talking about a polishing system and not single pass
filtration, the above may not be applicable. But for a recirculating
polishing system on our own boat where we do the filter changes
ourselves, to make it most cost effective I'd design it not so that all
of the filters fail at the exact same time but that the cost of
filtering of each stage in a multistage system is the same. That is, if
your second stage filter element costs 10x the first stage filter
element I'd want that second stage element to last 10x longer before it
needs to be replaced to be as cost effective.

If you monitor each stage with independent vacuum gauges you won't be
throwing away filters that still have some capture ability left in them.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Rich,

What do you recommend for a depth filter rather then the TP ot PT
filters?

Doug

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
You are correct !!!
Most folks dont realize that a filter isnt a 'screen door' .... it
can pass particulate LARGER than the 'rating'.
:-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:28:01 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:
Why not just always leave the polishing system in-line? Allow for a
bypass to change a filter or if it develops a vacuum leak, but other
then that, there's nothing wrong with always using "just polished"
fuel.

My 'read' from your statment is that perhaps you miss the functional
point of a recirculation filtration system - which is using a filter of
LARGE pore/rentention size to eventually wind up with a fluid with very
few very small particles.

A recirc filter only removes a paltry few percent of the 'target' size
particles (for example 5% of 2uM particles.). A large pore size filter
will have very little resistance to flow, will have more permeability
(open space), will have more ultimate 'dirt capacity'. If you pass the
fluid 20 times through the filter, you will remove approximately a
value approaching 100% of the target particles. With the same pump, a
LARGE filter is be able to pass a LARGE volume very quickly, whereas
2uM filter will take longer (due to resistance to flow - pump slows
down or starts to slip and fluid begins to bypass the vanes, etc. ).

Actually, I do understand that it's best to recirculate fuel many times
through the polishing system. That is what I do. But the engine has to
draw fuel from somewhere and I don't see why it's not better to draw
fuel from the outlet of the polishing system and always leave it on
while the engine is running (most of the flow from the system goes back
to the tank to be recirculated anyway) then to draw fuel directly from
the tank. Doing it this way allows for the most fuel passes through the
polishing system since it's running more often and because you get that
"one last time through" that you wouldn't get if you draw from the tank.

For single pass filtration (and without knowing the particle size
distribution) one typically needs a prefilter of the same surface area
(or dirt capacity) that is 5 times the size of the final filter.
eg.: 10uM followed by 2uM, where the prefilter is used to prolong the
life of the final filter. This is somewhat simplistic. When you
design a filtration system with a prefilter or multistage prefilters
one typically attempts to make ALL the filters fail at the exact same
time - so maximum debris is removed and the cost of change is minimized
- and you dont throw away filters that still have some capture ability
left in them.

Well, since we're talking about a polishing system and not single pass
filtration, the above may not be applicable. But for a recirculating
polishing system on our own boat where we do the filter changes
ourselves, to make it most cost effective I'd design it not so that all
of the filters fail at the exact same time but that the cost of
filtering of each stage in a multistage system is the same. That is, if
your second stage filter element costs 10x the first stage filter
element I'd want that second stage element to last 10x longer before it
needs to be replaced to be as cost effective.

If you monitor each stage with independent vacuum gauges you won't be
throwing away filters that still have some capture ability left in them.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation
most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that
each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or
state-of-the-art results.

ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a
recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of
degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.
If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers
blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an
emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or
allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the
main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry
will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have
a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or
its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically
fail ....

My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost
due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention,
knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY
prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will '
deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and
differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then
unload and bypass.

As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such
devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound
cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world
started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc.
If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such
system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a
cost cutting measure!!!!!

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.


;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation
most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that
each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or
state-of-the-art results.

ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a
recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of
degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.
If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers
blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an
emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or
allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the
main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry
will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have
a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or
its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically
fail ....

My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost
due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention,
knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY
prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will '
deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and
differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then
unload and bypass.

As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such
devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound
cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world
started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc.
If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such
system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a
cost cutting measure!!!!!

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.


;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Rich,

What would you suggest in a stiuation where mechanical cleaning of
the tanks is not practical. In my case, the tanks are an integral part
of the hull. Inspection ports have been cut into the sides, but cannot
be opened without removing a couple of dozen bolts and slicing
through whatever they are bedded in. Then rebedding and bolting
them back in place. 3 ports in each tank probably corresponding to
baffled areas.

I don't think the tanks are in that bad of shape in terms of sediment.
In 4 years since we bought the boat we have bashed around the
Chesapeake, down the ICW, offshore for most of FL without
a problem. We started having problems after taking on fuel in
Palm Beach , then Man-O-War Cay, then Fernandina beach
on the way back north last spring. Its been problematic ever since.

Doug

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation
most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that
each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or
state-of-the-art results.

ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a
recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of
degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.
If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers
blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an
emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or
allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the
main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry
will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have
a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or
its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically
fail ....

My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost
due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention,
knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY
prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will '
deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and
differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then
unload and bypass.

As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such
devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound
cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world
started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc.
If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such
system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a
cost cutting measure!!!!!

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.


;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Rich,

What would you suggest in a stiuation where mechanical cleaning of
the tanks is not practical. In my case, the tanks are an integral part
of the hull. Inspection ports have been cut into the sides, but cannot
be opened without removing a couple of dozen bolts and slicing
through whatever they are bedded in. Then rebedding and bolting
them back in place. 3 ports in each tank probably corresponding to
baffled areas.

I don't think the tanks are in that bad of shape in terms of sediment.
In 4 years since we bought the boat we have bashed around the
Chesapeake, down the ICW, offshore for most of FL without
a problem. We started having problems after taking on fuel in
Palm Beach , then Man-O-War Cay, then Fernandina beach
on the way back north last spring. Its been problematic ever since.

Doug

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation
most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that
each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or
state-of-the-art results.

ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a
recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of
degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.
If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers
blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an
emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or
allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the
main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry
will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have
a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or
its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically
fail ....

My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost
due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention,
knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY
prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will '
deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and
differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then
unload and bypass.

As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such
devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound
cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world
started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc.
If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such
system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a
cost cutting measure!!!!!

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.


;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied
that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit
that it was intended, that being a joke.

It must have been the lack of a :-) that threw me.
That or you're full of more than just "fuel polishing" ideas. :-)

By the way don't forget to let us know what you find when you open your tank.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied
that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit
that it was intended, that being a joke.

It must have been the lack of a :-) that threw me.
That or you're full of more than just "fuel polishing" ideas. :-)

By the way don't forget to let us know what you find when you open your tank.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.

I considered it. And I realize that mechanically cleaning the tank and
entire fuel system on a regular basis would be the best solution. But
the polishing system I installed was much cheaper and solved the
problem. Even though it may be a band aid in your view in that the tank
walls are still dirty, that doesn't matter much to me as long as the
fuel going to the engine is clean. I'd probably be much more concerned
if I had a motorboat and depended entirely on the engine for motion.
But I have a sailboat and don't use the engine all that much. I only
burn maybe 30 gallons a year, and it's a 78 gallon tank.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.

I considered it. And I realize that mechanically cleaning the tank and
entire fuel system on a regular basis would be the best solution. But
the polishing system I installed was much cheaper and solved the
problem. Even though it may be a band aid in your view in that the tank
walls are still dirty, that doesn't matter much to me as long as the
fuel going to the engine is clean. I'd probably be much more concerned
if I had a motorboat and depended entirely on the engine for motion.
But I have a sailboat and don't use the engine all that much. I only
burn maybe 30 gallons a year, and it's a 78 gallon tank.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:32:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing
I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the
other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move
fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the
depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that
advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the
TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from
your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of
shedding
right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on
a subsequent pass or by the engine filters.

I would still put a filter after the TP filter just to be sure. If not
a 2uM, then maybe a 10uM or 15uM. On my system, there's still the
engine mounted final filter after the TP and the Racor. But that one is
a bit more of a pain to change so I really want to keep the fuel to it
as clean as possible. That's why I use the 2uM.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:32:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing
I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the
other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move
fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the
depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that
advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the
TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from
your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of
shedding
right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on
a subsequent pass or by the engine filters.

I would still put a filter after the TP filter just to be sure. If not
a 2uM, then maybe a 10uM or 15uM. On my system, there's still the
engine mounted final filter after the TP and the Racor. But that one is
a bit more of a pain to change so I really want to keep the fuel to it
as clean as possible. That's why I use the 2uM.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

I also have an on-engine filter that is a pain to change, but putting a
fine filter prior to the lift pump is what caused it to fail. Another reason
to install a permanent electric pump.

Doug

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:32:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing
I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the
other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move
fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the
depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that
advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the
TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from
your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of
shedding
right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on
a subsequent pass or by the engine filters.

I would still put a filter after the TP filter just to be sure. If not
a 2uM, then maybe a 10uM or 15uM. On my system, there's still the
engine mounted final filter after the TP and the Racor. But that one is
a bit more of a pain to change so I really want to keep the fuel to it
as clean as possible. That's why I use the 2uM.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

I also have an on-engine filter that is a pain to change, but putting a
fine filter prior to the lift pump is what caused it to fail. Another reason
to install a permanent electric pump.

Doug

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:32:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing
I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the
other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move
fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the
depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that
advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the
TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from
your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of
shedding
right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on
a subsequent pass or by the engine filters.

I would still put a filter after the TP filter just to be sure. If not
a 2uM, then maybe a 10uM or 15uM. On my system, there's still the
engine mounted final filter after the TP and the Racor. But that one is
a bit more of a pain to change so I really want to keep the fuel to it
as clean as possible. That's why I use the 2uM.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

And that is the rub. I have 2 96 gallon tanks on a sailboat.
I can't use fuel fast enough to keep the tanks out of trouble so a
polishing system seems to be the most practical.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.

I considered it. And I realize that mechanically cleaning the tank and
entire fuel system on a regular basis would be the best solution. But
the polishing system I installed was much cheaper and solved the
problem. Even though it may be a band aid in your view in that the tank
walls are still dirty, that doesn't matter much to me as long as the
fuel going to the engine is clean. I'd probably be much more concerned
if I had a motorboat and depended entirely on the engine for motion.
But I have a sailboat and don't use the engine all that much. I only
burn maybe 30 gallons a year, and it's a 78 gallon tank.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

And that is the rub. I have 2 96 gallon tanks on a sailboat.
I can't use fuel fast enough to keep the tanks out of trouble so a
polishing system seems to be the most practical.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.

I considered it. And I realize that mechanically cleaning the tank and
entire fuel system on a regular basis would be the best solution. But
the polishing system I installed was much cheaper and solved the
problem. Even though it may be a band aid in your view in that the tank
walls are still dirty, that doesn't matter much to me as long as the
fuel going to the engine is clean. I'd probably be much more concerned
if I had a motorboat and depended entirely on the engine for motion.
But I have a sailboat and don't use the engine all that much. I only
burn maybe 30 gallons a year, and it's a 78 gallon tank.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. More comments below.

Doug
s/v Callista

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal
insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first
implied
that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit
that it was intended, that being a joke.

It must have been the lack of a :-) that threw me.
That or you're full of more than just "fuel polishing" ideas. :-)

By the way don't forget to let us know what you find when you open your
tank.

Be afraid! Be very afraid!

As a winter project (since I have to spend this winter up here in the great
white Mid Atlantic) I will be removing the existing fuel system, jury rig
something
to transfer the existing fuel from the port to the starboard tank and open
one
of the inspection ports. I have to do that to install the new pickup
tube/return
unit anyway. Should be interesting peering inside there. Have any idea what
might
have been used to bed the inspection ports? They are about halfway up the
side of the
tanks so are "under-diesel" much of the time.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. More comments below.

Doug
s/v Callista

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal
insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first
implied
that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit
that it was intended, that being a joke.

It must have been the lack of a :-) that threw me.
That or you're full of more than just "fuel polishing" ideas. :-)

By the way don't forget to let us know what you find when you open your
tank.

Be afraid! Be very afraid!

As a winter project (since I have to spend this winter up here in the great
white Mid Atlantic) I will be removing the existing fuel system, jury rig
something
to transfer the existing fuel from the port to the starboard tank and open
one
of the inspection ports. I have to do that to install the new pickup
tube/return
unit anyway. Should be interesting peering inside there. Have any idea what
might
have been used to bed the inspection ports? They are about halfway up the
side of the
tanks so are "under-diesel" much of the time.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Rich,

I'm looking through the McMaster-Carr catalog and am finding a bewildering
number of filter cartridges. None of them mention the term "depth
media" or such. Many come in regular and pleated versions. I did
find a nice SS housing with a T handle. It seems that a string-wound
polyester with 304 SS core is OK. I also see a Spun Polypropylene
media for $2.69 ea but the pleated version costs a whopping $30.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation
most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that
each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or
state-of-the-art results.

ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a
recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of
degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.
If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers
blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an
emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or
allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the
main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry
will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have
a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or
its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically
fail ....

My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost
due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention,
knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY
prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will '
deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and
differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then
unload and bypass.

As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such
devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound
cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world
started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc.
If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such
system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a
cost cutting measure!!!!!

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.


;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Rich,

I'm looking through the McMaster-Carr catalog and am finding a bewildering
number of filter cartridges. None of them mention the term "depth
media" or such. Many come in regular and pleated versions. I did
find a nice SS housing with a T handle. It seems that a string-wound
polyester with 304 SS core is OK. I also see a Spun Polypropylene
media for $2.69 ea but the pleated version costs a whopping $30.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation
most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that
each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or
state-of-the-art results.

ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a
recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of
degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.
If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers
blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an
emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or
allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the
main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry
will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have
a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or
its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically
fail ....

My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost
due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention,
knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY
prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will '
deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and
differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then
unload and bypass.

As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such
devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound
cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world
started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc.
If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such
system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a
cost cutting measure!!!!!

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.


;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and around critical filtration/separation
most of my working life ...

Sounds good to me...

/// Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.

Perhaps a test at home would be helpful.

Take a kitchen collender, A seive or funnel would also work well.
Place a sheet of kitchen roll in the aperture, pleated once to fit.
Spray the surface with Pam, olive oil, or soybean oil or any other oil
Momma has on hand. Make sure the paper is saturated.

Now pour water onto the surface.
Let me know how many particles break loose.
We'll compare notes if you like...
///
My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers
\////
You either believe the folks who say that depth filters have saved
their fine surface filters from blocking, or you don't.
If you do believe that they are reporting honestly, then I imagine
you would say that at the operational level, that's the kind of
efficiency they prefer?

The home test may (or may not) demonstrate that an oil-soaked paper
tissue does not migrate particles or fibers.
I expect you will let us know if this is misconceived...

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system.
////

Or in the version I prefer, referring only to the surface filters that
you use and prefer:
DO NOT depend on fine surface filters to remove crud in your system -
they will certainly block: fast.

Respectfully,

Brian Whatcott

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and around critical filtration/separation
most of my working life ...

Sounds good to me...

/// Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.

Perhaps a test at home would be helpful.

Take a kitchen collender, A seive or funnel would also work well.
Place a sheet of kitchen roll in the aperture, pleated once to fit.
Spray the surface with Pam, olive oil, or soybean oil or any other oil
Momma has on hand. Make sure the paper is saturated.

Now pour water onto the surface.
Let me know how many particles break loose.
We'll compare notes if you like...
///
My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers
\////
You either believe the folks who say that depth filters have saved
their fine surface filters from blocking, or you don't.
If you do believe that they are reporting honestly, then I imagine
you would say that at the operational level, that's the kind of
efficiency they prefer?

The home test may (or may not) demonstrate that an oil-soaked paper
tissue does not migrate particles or fibers.
I expect you will let us know if this is misconceived...

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system.
////

Or in the version I prefer, referring only to the surface filters that
you use and prefer:
DO NOT depend on fine surface filters to remove crud in your system -
they will certainly block: fast.

Respectfully,

Brian Whatcott

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Have any idea what
might
have been used to bed the inspection ports?

The ones I have dealt with have had gaskets on them. If yours don't I would
look into making some and/or using a fuel resistant sealant.
http://www.watkins-associates.com/index.html
Capt. Bill