Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:36:38 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote: Steve, Thanks for the pics of your system. Any suggestions on TP vs PT filter? I'd say that if you have the room, go for the big one. I didn't have the room for the height of the PT filter so I went with 2 TP filters. For the elements, I use the 1000 sheet Scott rolls. They're tightly wound, dense, and when compressed into the cartridge and soaked in fuel oil make a surprisingly solid mass. It's interesting that when you soak a roll of TP in water, it falls apart but when you soak it in diesel, it becomes a strong solid element. Steve "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:01:15 -0500, DSK wrote: Steven Shelikoff wrote: ..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They probably do trap a lot of particles but also shed them. That hasn't been my experience with them. My experience is that they do not shed significantly (they haven't clogged the 2 micron Racor behind them yet) and that they do trap a lot of particles. I guess they also make good water separaters but I wouldn't know that since I've never had a problem with water in my fuel even before I put on the GCF filters. .... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom. You lol, not quite. Otherwise, we'd be changing Racor elements every time we start the engine. Unlike condoms, the Racor elements are safe to keep using until they get dirty. could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead of the TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel. That also hasn't been anywhere near my experience. A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location. That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to either 1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change the filter element easily & quickly. My Racor is very easy to change. The engine mounted filter a little less easy, but it's still only a 10 minute job. Changing either of them required bleeding the fuel system though. With what I have now, I can change either the GCF filter or the Racor and not get any air into the engine. I can shut off fuel to the engine and bleed the part of the system with those filters with the walbro pump. I can even change the GCF filters and bypass them to keep the engine running if it's necessary. I do have to shut off fuel to the engine to bleed them properly, although filling them with fuel before putting the lid on really helps there so if it was really an emergency, I could probably keep the engine running. BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of them and not pay much. The main problem is that I had to change 2 of the Racor elements when the engine died after operating only 20 minutes each. And with the amount of crud in the tank, that trend was likely to continue for a long time. That's totally unacceptable no matter how cheap you get the elements (they're still expensive even by the case) or how many you carry. The GCF 01-Jr filters before the Racor totally solved the problem and cost me about the same as having the tank cleaned and the fuel in it polished. Now, I have that accomplished and still have the system installed for future use. I know a lot of people here will tell you a lot of bad things about the GCF PT or TP filters. But probably none of those people actually used them to solve a specific problem. I have first hand experience and for me, they're working great. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Steven Shelikoff wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Not much other than viscosity, flow rate, condensate content, contaminants filtered, use of the product being filtered and reason for being filtered in the first place. :-) -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Steven Shelikoff wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Not much other than viscosity, flow rate, condensate content, contaminants filtered, use of the product being filtered and reason for being filtered in the first place. :-) -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast
filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though :) Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Steve Rufus wrote: About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed truck and heavy equipment fleets. They swore by the paper filters (paper towel or TP) and used them on their own personal trucks. You could probably find the threads on google. Rufus -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast
filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though :) Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Steve Rufus wrote: About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed truck and heavy equipment fleets. They swore by the paper filters (paper towel or TP) and used them on their own personal trucks. You could probably find the threads on google. Rufus -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
I'm building a whole new unit for all the uptakes and returns. My
tanks are built-in. Integral to the hull. A plate containing everything bolts through the top of the tank. But if I decide to place the return for the polishing system at the opposite end of the tank, I'll have to fashion a second unit at the opposite end. Doug s/v Callista "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... That works. I put the pickup at bottom and return at top thru the filler hole. Some people use the tank return -- they remove hose or have a three-way valve. You might be able to connect a hose to your draincock -- which would simplify things. Len I had thought of a bubbling mechanism to stir the tank while polishing. Also thought if the return from the polishing system was placed at the opposite end of the tank from the uptake it might keep things mixed up a bit. I have a draincock at the lowest of each of my tanks so draining out water and a bit of sediment is pretty easy. Doug "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... Concerns were expressed on this thread about pulling too much flow thru a polishing filter. I polish with a Racor 500 in a stand-alone system. Some time ago I called Racor and found out it's cartridge is rated for 20-25psi. I equipped my polishing system with a vacuum gauge, same as on my engine. Vacuum can then be monitored and regulated in a couple ways. One way is variable speed pump. The other uses a bypass valve, so that not all fuel being pumped goes thru pump. I'll usually keep the filter vacuum around 10 psi to be conservative. When it rises 5psi that's sign the filter is getting clogged. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. Before "bubbling" the tank or doing anything else, first pump a quart or two off the bottom into glass jar and check for water. And continue this, discarding the water, until no more is seen. FWIW. Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
I'm building a whole new unit for all the uptakes and returns. My
tanks are built-in. Integral to the hull. A plate containing everything bolts through the top of the tank. But if I decide to place the return for the polishing system at the opposite end of the tank, I'll have to fashion a second unit at the opposite end. Doug s/v Callista "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... That works. I put the pickup at bottom and return at top thru the filler hole. Some people use the tank return -- they remove hose or have a three-way valve. You might be able to connect a hose to your draincock -- which would simplify things. Len I had thought of a bubbling mechanism to stir the tank while polishing. Also thought if the return from the polishing system was placed at the opposite end of the tank from the uptake it might keep things mixed up a bit. I have a draincock at the lowest of each of my tanks so draining out water and a bit of sediment is pretty easy. Doug "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... Concerns were expressed on this thread about pulling too much flow thru a polishing filter. I polish with a Racor 500 in a stand-alone system. Some time ago I called Racor and found out it's cartridge is rated for 20-25psi. I equipped my polishing system with a vacuum gauge, same as on my engine. Vacuum can then be monitored and regulated in a couple ways. One way is variable speed pump. The other uses a bypass valve, so that not all fuel being pumped goes thru pump. I'll usually keep the filter vacuum around 10 psi to be conservative. When it rises 5psi that's sign the filter is getting clogged. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. Before "bubbling" the tank or doing anything else, first pump a quart or two off the bottom into glass jar and check for water. And continue this, discarding the water, until no more is seen. FWIW. Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Ah, now I see why you have 2 TP units. I'll have to do some
measuring and see what I can accomodate. Doug "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:36:38 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote: Steve, Thanks for the pics of your system. Any suggestions on TP vs PT filter? I'd say that if you have the room, go for the big one. I didn't have the room for the height of the PT filter so I went with 2 TP filters. For the elements, I use the 1000 sheet Scott rolls. They're tightly wound, dense, and when compressed into the cartridge and soaked in fuel oil make a surprisingly solid mass. It's interesting that when you soak a roll of TP in water, it falls apart but when you soak it in diesel, it becomes a strong solid element. Steve "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:01:15 -0500, DSK wrote: Steven Shelikoff wrote: ..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They probably do trap a lot of particles but also shed them. That hasn't been my experience with them. My experience is that they do not shed significantly (they haven't clogged the 2 micron Racor behind them yet) and that they do trap a lot of particles. I guess they also make good water separaters but I wouldn't know that since I've never had a problem with water in my fuel even before I put on the GCF filters. .... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom. You lol, not quite. Otherwise, we'd be changing Racor elements every time we start the engine. Unlike condoms, the Racor elements are safe to keep using until they get dirty. could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead of the TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel. That also hasn't been anywhere near my experience. A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location. That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to either 1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change the filter element easily & quickly. My Racor is very easy to change. The engine mounted filter a little less easy, but it's still only a 10 minute job. Changing either of them required bleeding the fuel system though. With what I have now, I can change either the GCF filter or the Racor and not get any air into the engine. I can shut off fuel to the engine and bleed the part of the system with those filters with the walbro pump. I can even change the GCF filters and bypass them to keep the engine running if it's necessary. I do have to shut off fuel to the engine to bleed them properly, although filling them with fuel before putting the lid on really helps there so if it was really an emergency, I could probably keep the engine running. BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of them and not pay much. The main problem is that I had to change 2 of the Racor elements when the engine died after operating only 20 minutes each. And with the amount of crud in the tank, that trend was likely to continue for a long time. That's totally unacceptable no matter how cheap you get the elements (they're still expensive even by the case) or how many you carry. The GCF 01-Jr filters before the Racor totally solved the problem and cost me about the same as having the tank cleaned and the fuel in it polished. Now, I have that accomplished and still have the system installed for future use. I know a lot of people here will tell you a lot of bad things about the GCF PT or TP filters. But probably none of those people actually used them to solve a specific problem. I have first hand experience and for me, they're working great. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Ah, now I see why you have 2 TP units. I'll have to do some
measuring and see what I can accomodate. Doug "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:36:38 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote: Steve, Thanks for the pics of your system. Any suggestions on TP vs PT filter? I'd say that if you have the room, go for the big one. I didn't have the room for the height of the PT filter so I went with 2 TP filters. For the elements, I use the 1000 sheet Scott rolls. They're tightly wound, dense, and when compressed into the cartridge and soaked in fuel oil make a surprisingly solid mass. It's interesting that when you soak a roll of TP in water, it falls apart but when you soak it in diesel, it becomes a strong solid element. Steve "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:01:15 -0500, DSK wrote: Steven Shelikoff wrote: ..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They probably do trap a lot of particles but also shed them. That hasn't been my experience with them. My experience is that they do not shed significantly (they haven't clogged the 2 micron Racor behind them yet) and that they do trap a lot of particles. I guess they also make good water separaters but I wouldn't know that since I've never had a problem with water in my fuel even before I put on the GCF filters. .... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom. You lol, not quite. Otherwise, we'd be changing Racor elements every time we start the engine. Unlike condoms, the Racor elements are safe to keep using until they get dirty. could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead of the TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel. That also hasn't been anywhere near my experience. A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location. That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to either 1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change the filter element easily & quickly. My Racor is very easy to change. The engine mounted filter a little less easy, but it's still only a 10 minute job. Changing either of them required bleeding the fuel system though. With what I have now, I can change either the GCF filter or the Racor and not get any air into the engine. I can shut off fuel to the engine and bleed the part of the system with those filters with the walbro pump. I can even change the GCF filters and bypass them to keep the engine running if it's necessary. I do have to shut off fuel to the engine to bleed them properly, although filling them with fuel before putting the lid on really helps there so if it was really an emergency, I could probably keep the engine running. BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of them and not pay much. The main problem is that I had to change 2 of the Racor elements when the engine died after operating only 20 minutes each. And with the amount of crud in the tank, that trend was likely to continue for a long time. That's totally unacceptable no matter how cheap you get the elements (they're still expensive even by the case) or how many you carry. The GCF 01-Jr filters before the Racor totally solved the problem and cost me about the same as having the tank cleaned and the fuel in it polished. Now, I have that accomplished and still have the system installed for future use. I know a lot of people here will tell you a lot of bad things about the GCF PT or TP filters. But probably none of those people actually used them to solve a specific problem. I have first hand experience and for me, they're working great. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
WHAT A ****TY MESS -
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:29:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: Here's a picture of my installation. http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image20.jpg The two GCF filters are the black cylinders center left. The Racor after them is the white one lower left. The engine final filter isn't visible but it's just behind the air intake, which is just behind the oil fill. The plumbing behind the filters lets me do things like bypass the filters so I can change them when the engine is running, power prime the engine, shutoff fuel to the engine while I'm polishing, etc. The pump isn't visible but the hose in front coming off the Racor with the vacuum gauge on it leads to the pump. Closer up, http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image18.jpg Yes, it looks like a plumbers nightmare.:) But it's all pretty straight foward to figure out and operate. Normally, all valves are open except for the one letting fuel bypass the GCF filters. There are 3 vacuum gauges, one before the GCF filters, one between the GCF and the Racor and one after the Racor. If the vacuum difference is more then a couple of lbs between the input and output of a filter, it's time for an element change. "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote: This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge. This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine. However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if* you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter. The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank, manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of fuel, like a half gallon. After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter condition with vacuum gauges. When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2 micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2 of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters. Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron. Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are working great for me. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast
filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though :) Doug s/v Callista Doug- I can supply you with either the Gulf Coast F-1 (paper towell) or the JR (TP) filters and the Walbro 6092...I have all in stock...contact me by email or phone if I can help. Note that there are some clearance issues with the F-1 filter...see the Gulf Coast Filter web site http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/Product%20Info.htm for dimensions. Charlie Johnson JTB Marine Service St. Petersburg, FL 33701 727.560.9065 |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast
filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though :) Doug s/v Callista Doug- I can supply you with either the Gulf Coast F-1 (paper towell) or the JR (TP) filters and the Walbro 6092...I have all in stock...contact me by email or phone if I can help. Note that there are some clearance issues with the F-1 filter...see the Gulf Coast Filter web site http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/Product%20Info.htm for dimensions. Charlie Johnson JTB Marine Service St. Petersburg, FL 33701 727.560.9065 |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Thanks Charlie!
I'll send you an email direct to get details. I took a quick look at the GC website and specifically the F1 filter. It shows no indication that paper towel rolls are used as the filter element. They show a element that they sell. This is not a problem as a specific filter element designed for the unit is OK with me, and I can always fall back on PT rolls. Also don't see any mention of the Jr unit. Doug "Charlie J" wrote in message ... From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though :) Doug s/v Callista Doug- I can supply you with either the Gulf Coast F-1 (paper towell) or the JR (TP) filters and the Walbro 6092...I have all in stock...contact me by or phone if I can help. Note that there are some clearance issues with the F-1 filter...see the Gulf Coast Filter web site http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/Product%20Info.htm for dimensions. Charlie Johnson JTB Marine Service St. Petersburg, FL 33701 727.560.9065 |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Thanks Charlie!
I'll send you an email direct to get details. I took a quick look at the GC website and specifically the F1 filter. It shows no indication that paper towel rolls are used as the filter element. They show a element that they sell. This is not a problem as a specific filter element designed for the unit is OK with me, and I can always fall back on PT rolls. Also don't see any mention of the Jr unit. Doug "Charlie J" wrote in message ... From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though :) Doug s/v Callista Doug- I can supply you with either the Gulf Coast F-1 (paper towell) or the JR (TP) filters and the Walbro 6092...I have all in stock...contact me by or phone if I can help. Note that there are some clearance issues with the F-1 filter...see the Gulf Coast Filter web site http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/Product%20Info.htm for dimensions. Charlie Johnson JTB Marine Service St. Petersburg, FL 33701 727.560.9065 |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Doug - Since you're messing around with changes, you might what to have a
look at what friend Ray did for ideas if nothing else. See: http://sundowner.thebilge.com/fuelsystem.htm Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I'm building a whole new unit for all the uptakes and returns. My tanks are built-in. Integral to the hull. A plate containing everything bolts through the top of the tank. But if I decide to place the return for the polishing system at the opposite end of the tank, I'll have to fashion a second unit at the opposite end. Doug s/v Callista "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... That works. I put the pickup at bottom and return at top thru the filler hole. Some people use the tank return -- they remove hose or have a three-way valve. You might be able to connect a hose to your draincock -- which would simplify things. Len I had thought of a bubbling mechanism to stir the tank while polishing. Also thought if the return from the polishing system was placed at the opposite end of the tank from the uptake it might keep things mixed up a bit. I have a draincock at the lowest of each of my tanks so draining out water and a bit of sediment is pretty easy. Doug "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... Concerns were expressed on this thread about pulling too much flow thru a polishing filter. I polish with a Racor 500 in a stand-alone system. Some time ago I called Racor and found out it's cartridge is rated for 20-25psi. I equipped my polishing system with a vacuum gauge, same as on my engine. Vacuum can then be monitored and regulated in a couple ways. One way is variable speed pump. The other uses a bypass valve, so that not all fuel being pumped goes thru pump. I'll usually keep the filter vacuum around 10 psi to be conservative. When it rises 5psi that's sign the filter is getting clogged. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. Before "bubbling" the tank or doing anything else, first pump a quart or two off the bottom into glass jar and check for water. And continue this, discarding the water, until no more is seen. FWIW. Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Doug - Since you're messing around with changes, you might what to have a
look at what friend Ray did for ideas if nothing else. See: http://sundowner.thebilge.com/fuelsystem.htm Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I'm building a whole new unit for all the uptakes and returns. My tanks are built-in. Integral to the hull. A plate containing everything bolts through the top of the tank. But if I decide to place the return for the polishing system at the opposite end of the tank, I'll have to fashion a second unit at the opposite end. Doug s/v Callista "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... That works. I put the pickup at bottom and return at top thru the filler hole. Some people use the tank return -- they remove hose or have a three-way valve. You might be able to connect a hose to your draincock -- which would simplify things. Len I had thought of a bubbling mechanism to stir the tank while polishing. Also thought if the return from the polishing system was placed at the opposite end of the tank from the uptake it might keep things mixed up a bit. I have a draincock at the lowest of each of my tanks so draining out water and a bit of sediment is pretty easy. Doug "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... Concerns were expressed on this thread about pulling too much flow thru a polishing filter. I polish with a Racor 500 in a stand-alone system. Some time ago I called Racor and found out it's cartridge is rated for 20-25psi. I equipped my polishing system with a vacuum gauge, same as on my engine. Vacuum can then be monitored and regulated in a couple ways. One way is variable speed pump. The other uses a bypass valve, so that not all fuel being pumped goes thru pump. I'll usually keep the filter vacuum around 10 psi to be conservative. When it rises 5psi that's sign the filter is getting clogged. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. Before "bubbling" the tank or doing anything else, first pump a quart or two off the bottom into glass jar and check for water. And continue this, discarding the water, until no more is seen. FWIW. Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Good info, thanks!
Doug "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... Doug - Since you're messing around with changes, you might what to have a look at what friend Ray did for ideas if nothing else. See: http://sundowner.thebilge.com/fuelsystem.htm Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I'm building a whole new unit for all the uptakes and returns. My tanks are built-in. Integral to the hull. A plate containing everything bolts through the top of the tank. But if I decide to place the return for the polishing system at the opposite end of the tank, I'll have to fashion a second unit at the opposite end. Doug s/v Callista "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... That works. I put the pickup at bottom and return at top thru the filler hole. Some people use the tank return -- they remove hose or have a three-way valve. You might be able to connect a hose to your draincock -- which would simplify things. Len I had thought of a bubbling mechanism to stir the tank while polishing. Also thought if the return from the polishing system was placed at the opposite end of the tank from the uptake it might keep things mixed up a bit. I have a draincock at the lowest of each of my tanks so draining out water and a bit of sediment is pretty easy. Doug "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... Concerns were expressed on this thread about pulling too much flow thru a polishing filter. I polish with a Racor 500 in a stand-alone system. Some time ago I called Racor and found out it's cartridge is rated for 20-25psi. I equipped my polishing system with a vacuum gauge, same as on my engine. Vacuum can then be monitored and regulated in a couple ways. One way is variable speed pump. The other uses a bypass valve, so that not all fuel being pumped goes thru pump. I'll usually keep the filter vacuum around 10 psi to be conservative. When it rises 5psi that's sign the filter is getting clogged. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. Before "bubbling" the tank or doing anything else, first pump a quart or two off the bottom into glass jar and check for water. And continue this, discarding the water, until no more is seen. FWIW. Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Good info, thanks!
Doug "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... Doug - Since you're messing around with changes, you might what to have a look at what friend Ray did for ideas if nothing else. See: http://sundowner.thebilge.com/fuelsystem.htm Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I'm building a whole new unit for all the uptakes and returns. My tanks are built-in. Integral to the hull. A plate containing everything bolts through the top of the tank. But if I decide to place the return for the polishing system at the opposite end of the tank, I'll have to fashion a second unit at the opposite end. Doug s/v Callista "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... That works. I put the pickup at bottom and return at top thru the filler hole. Some people use the tank return -- they remove hose or have a three-way valve. You might be able to connect a hose to your draincock -- which would simplify things. Len I had thought of a bubbling mechanism to stir the tank while polishing. Also thought if the return from the polishing system was placed at the opposite end of the tank from the uptake it might keep things mixed up a bit. I have a draincock at the lowest of each of my tanks so draining out water and a bit of sediment is pretty easy. Doug "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... Concerns were expressed on this thread about pulling too much flow thru a polishing filter. I polish with a Racor 500 in a stand-alone system. Some time ago I called Racor and found out it's cartridge is rated for 20-25psi. I equipped my polishing system with a vacuum gauge, same as on my engine. Vacuum can then be monitored and regulated in a couple ways. One way is variable speed pump. The other uses a bypass valve, so that not all fuel being pumped goes thru pump. I'll usually keep the filter vacuum around 10 psi to be conservative. When it rises 5psi that's sign the filter is getting clogged. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. Before "bubbling" the tank or doing anything else, first pump a quart or two off the bottom into glass jar and check for water. And continue this, discarding the water, until no more is seen. FWIW. Len -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson" Makes sense, but there is quite alot of evidence out there that a polishing system is a good thing to have. I can't really increase the size of my on-engine filter. I could increase the size of the Raycor, but at the pore sizes I run (30 micron) in it make it necessary to change the on-engine filter regularly as well. Bigger Raycor won't fix the problem. What's the GPH on your engine? If you go to a larger Racor you could easily change to a smaller micron element. It fact, I have never understood why people don't run as small a micron element as they can in the first filter after the fuel tank. Why let anything near the micron size of the engine mounted filter get to that filter at all? Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson" Makes sense, but there is quite alot of evidence out there that a polishing system is a good thing to have. I can't really increase the size of my on-engine filter. I could increase the size of the Raycor, but at the pore sizes I run (30 micron) in it make it necessary to change the on-engine filter regularly as well. Bigger Raycor won't fix the problem. What's the GPH on your engine? If you go to a larger Racor you could easily change to a smaller micron element. It fact, I have never understood why people don't run as small a micron element as they can in the first filter after the fuel tank. Why let anything near the micron size of the engine mounted filter get to that filter at all? Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:35:51 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote: Steven Shelikoff wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Not much other than viscosity, flow rate, condensate content, contaminants filtered, use of the product being filtered and reason for being filtered in the first place. :-) Hmm, would be interesting to find out the viscosity difference of 220F motor oil vs. cool diesel fuel. I'd guess they are pretty similar with similar flow rates and condensate content. The contaminants filtered would obviosly be different but the reason for filtering in the first place is the same... to rid them of particulants. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:35:51 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote: Steven Shelikoff wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Not much other than viscosity, flow rate, condensate content, contaminants filtered, use of the product being filtered and reason for being filtered in the first place. :-) Hmm, would be interesting to find out the viscosity difference of 220F motor oil vs. cool diesel fuel. I'd guess they are pretty similar with similar flow rates and condensate content. The contaminants filtered would obviosly be different but the reason for filtering in the first place is the same... to rid them of particulants. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:53:43 -0800, Jed wrote:
WHAT A ****TY MESS - It sure looks that way, doesn't it? But that's what you get when you try and fit a whole lot of plumbing, tubing, filters, etc., into a tight space that already had a stuff in it. I wish I had more room to make it look neater, with straight hose runs, separating the wiring from the valve area, etc. But I don't. Steve On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:29:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: Here's a picture of my installation. http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image20.jpg The two GCF filters are the black cylinders center left. The Racor after them is the white one lower left. The engine final filter isn't visible but it's just behind the air intake, which is just behind the oil fill. The plumbing behind the filters lets me do things like bypass the filters so I can change them when the engine is running, power prime the engine, shutoff fuel to the engine while I'm polishing, etc. The pump isn't visible but the hose in front coming off the Racor with the vacuum gauge on it leads to the pump. Closer up, http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image18.jpg Yes, it looks like a plumbers nightmare.:) But it's all pretty straight foward to figure out and operate. Normally, all valves are open except for the one letting fuel bypass the GCF filters. There are 3 vacuum gauges, one before the GCF filters, one between the GCF and the Racor and one after the Racor. If the vacuum difference is more then a couple of lbs between the input and output of a filter, it's time for an element change. "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote: This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge. This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine. However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if* you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter. The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank, manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of fuel, like a half gallon. After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter condition with vacuum gauges. When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2 micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2 of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters. Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron. Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are working great for me. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:53:43 -0800, Jed wrote:
WHAT A ****TY MESS - It sure looks that way, doesn't it? But that's what you get when you try and fit a whole lot of plumbing, tubing, filters, etc., into a tight space that already had a stuff in it. I wish I had more room to make it look neater, with straight hose runs, separating the wiring from the valve area, etc. But I don't. Steve On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:29:11 GMT, (Steven Shelikoff) wrote: Here's a picture of my installation. http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image20.jpg The two GCF filters are the black cylinders center left. The Racor after them is the white one lower left. The engine final filter isn't visible but it's just behind the air intake, which is just behind the oil fill. The plumbing behind the filters lets me do things like bypass the filters so I can change them when the engine is running, power prime the engine, shutoff fuel to the engine while I'm polishing, etc. The pump isn't visible but the hose in front coming off the Racor with the vacuum gauge on it leads to the pump. Closer up, http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image18.jpg Yes, it looks like a plumbers nightmare.:) But it's all pretty straight foward to figure out and operate. Normally, all valves are open except for the one letting fuel bypass the GCF filters. There are 3 vacuum gauges, one before the GCF filters, one between the GCF and the Racor and one after the Racor. If the vacuum difference is more then a couple of lbs between the input and output of a filter, it's time for an element change. "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote: This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge. This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine. However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if* you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter. The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank, manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of fuel, like a half gallon. After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter condition with vacuum gauges. When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2 micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2 of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters. Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron. Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are working great for me. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching
the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that was clogging up most. Like I said, look into putting a large size small micron filter BEFORE the engine mounted one. I want my filtration system to stop crud before it gets to the engine filter. By the way, and I might have missed this, what kind of engine do you have? And what is it's true GHP flow rating? In other words it's burn plus return GPH. Capt. Bill Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching
the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that was clogging up most. Like I said, look into putting a large size small micron filter BEFORE the engine mounted one. I want my filtration system to stop crud before it gets to the engine filter. By the way, and I might have missed this, what kind of engine do you have? And what is it's true GHP flow rating? In other words it's burn plus return GPH. Capt. Bill Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: Brian Whatcott Ahem...you meant mineral lubricating oil, rather than mineral fuel oil? Yeah, that's what he means. And check out the tolerances in a "mineral oil" lubricating pump verses the tolerances in a "mineral oil" fuel injector pump. Then maybe you will grasp why proper "mineral oil" fuel filtration is more critical than "mineral oil" lubrication filtation. Capt. Bill Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: Brian Whatcott Ahem...you meant mineral lubricating oil, rather than mineral fuel oil? Yeah, that's what he means. And check out the tolerances in a "mineral oil" lubricating pump verses the tolerances in a "mineral oil" fuel injector pump. Then maybe you will grasp why proper "mineral oil" fuel filtration is more critical than "mineral oil" lubrication filtation. Capt. Bill Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: (Steven Shelikoff) Not much difference between diesel and oil. Perhaps, but there is a world of difference between the tolerances of a fuel injector pump and an oil pump. Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: (Steven Shelikoff) Not much difference between diesel and oil. Perhaps, but there is a world of difference between the tolerances of a fuel injector pump and an oil pump. Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On 29 Nov 2003 20:48:01 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: (Steven Shelikoff) Not much difference between diesel and oil. Perhaps, but there is a world of difference between the tolerances of a fuel injector pump and an oil pump. True. But that's a red herring since it's not usually the oil pump that wears out due to dirty lubricating oil. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On 29 Nov 2003 20:48:01 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: (Steven Shelikoff) Not much difference between diesel and oil. Perhaps, but there is a world of difference between the tolerances of a fuel injector pump and an oil pump. True. But that's a red herring since it's not usually the oil pump that wears out due to dirty lubricating oil. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Len Krauss" As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. But he is only stirring up one baffeled area in the tank unless he has access plates to each area. No offense, but how many of you have actually seen the insides of a well built marine fuel tank? Capt. Bill |
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