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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Len Krauss" As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. But he is only stirring up one baffeled area in the tank unless he has access plates to each area. No offense, but how many of you have actually seen the insides of a well built marine fuel tank? Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Len Krauss" That works. Only if your tank has no baffels. Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Len Krauss" That works. Only if your tank has no baffels. Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Len Krauss" Doug - Since you're messing around with changes, you might what to have a look at what friend Ray did for ideas if nothing else. See: http://sundowner.thebilge.com/fuelsystem.htm Len "So far the system has been great. After the initial polishing of all of the old fuel (it turned out to be perfectly clean wouldn't you know!), I have had no issues at all. Now they're is a glowing unbiased review. :-) Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Len Krauss" Doug - Since you're messing around with changes, you might what to have a look at what friend Ray did for ideas if nothing else. See: http://sundowner.thebilge.com/fuelsystem.htm Len "So far the system has been great. After the initial polishing of all of the old fuel (it turned out to be perfectly clean wouldn't you know!), I have had no issues at all. Now they're is a glowing unbiased review. :-) Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Bill,
That's what I used to have and it lead to the failure of my lift pump. That's why Yanmar sent me a letter threatening to void my warranty it I used any filter smaller than 30 uM. That's why the mechanic in FL said that they replace hundreds of failed lift pumps a year due to folks using 2 uM Raycors. Mostly because the engine mounted filters are harder to charge because they generally require the system to be bled. So folks use a Raycor that is too small out of laziness to avoid changing the engine filter. The stress on the lift pump causes it to fail prematurely. Engine is a Perkins 4-236. It burns 1 GPH. Don't know the true flow rate but the return flow rate is pretty small. Doug "LaBomba182" wrote in message ... The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that was clogging up most. Like I said, look into putting a large size small micron filter BEFORE the engine mounted one. I want my filtration system to stop crud before it gets to the engine filter. By the way, and I might have missed this, what kind of engine do you have? And what is it's true GHP flow rating? In other words it's burn plus return GPH. Capt. Bill Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Bill,
That's what I used to have and it lead to the failure of my lift pump. That's why Yanmar sent me a letter threatening to void my warranty it I used any filter smaller than 30 uM. That's why the mechanic in FL said that they replace hundreds of failed lift pumps a year due to folks using 2 uM Raycors. Mostly because the engine mounted filters are harder to charge because they generally require the system to be bled. So folks use a Raycor that is too small out of laziness to avoid changing the engine filter. The stress on the lift pump causes it to fail prematurely. Engine is a Perkins 4-236. It burns 1 GPH. Don't know the true flow rate but the return flow rate is pretty small. Doug "LaBomba182" wrote in message ... The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that was clogging up most. Like I said, look into putting a large size small micron filter BEFORE the engine mounted one. I want my filtration system to stop crud before it gets to the engine filter. By the way, and I might have missed this, what kind of engine do you have? And what is it's true GHP flow rating? In other words it's burn plus return GPH. Capt. Bill Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
"LaBomba182" wrote in message ... Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Doug Dotson" Makes sense, but there is quite alot of evidence out there that a polishing system is a good thing to have. I can't really increase the size of my on-engine filter. I could increase the size of the Raycor, but at the pore sizes I run (30 micron) in it make it necessary to change the on-engine filter regularly as well. Bigger Raycor won't fix the problem. What's the GPH on your engine? 1 GPH is what I consume. Don't know the fuel return rate. If you go to a larger Racor you could easily change to a smaller micron element. It fact, I have never understood why people don't run as small a micron element as they can in the first filter after the fuel tank. Why let anything near the micron size of the engine mounted filter get to that filter at all? Because small filters ahead of the lift pump stress the pump and cause premature failure. No fun. Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
"LaBomba182" wrote in message ... Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Doug Dotson" Makes sense, but there is quite alot of evidence out there that a polishing system is a good thing to have. I can't really increase the size of my on-engine filter. I could increase the size of the Raycor, but at the pore sizes I run (30 micron) in it make it necessary to change the on-engine filter regularly as well. Bigger Raycor won't fix the problem. What's the GPH on your engine? 1 GPH is what I consume. Don't know the fuel return rate. If you go to a larger Racor you could easily change to a smaller micron element. It fact, I have never understood why people don't run as small a micron element as they can in the first filter after the fuel tank. Why let anything near the micron size of the engine mounted filter get to that filter at all? Because small filters ahead of the lift pump stress the pump and cause premature failure. No fun. Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Not sure that matters much. If the fuel can negoatiate the baffles
then I suspect the crud can as well. Hence the problem. Once the fuel is shaken not stirred :) Doug "LaBomba182" wrote in message ... Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Len Krauss" That works. Only if your tank has no baffels. Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Not sure that matters much. If the fuel can negoatiate the baffles
then I suspect the crud can as well. Hence the problem. Once the fuel is shaken not stirred :) Doug "LaBomba182" wrote in message ... Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Len Krauss" That works. Only if your tank has no baffels. Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
I don't think mine is a well built marine fuel tank. But is what I have.
I'll know more when I open it up this winter an peer inside. Doug "LaBomba182" wrote in message ... Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Len Krauss" As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. But he is only stirring up one baffeled area in the tank unless he has access plates to each area. No offense, but how many of you have actually seen the insides of a well built marine fuel tank? Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
I don't think mine is a well built marine fuel tank. But is what I have.
I'll know more when I open it up this winter an peer inside. Doug "LaBomba182" wrote in message ... Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Len Krauss" As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. But he is only stirring up one baffeled area in the tank unless he has access plates to each area. No offense, but how many of you have actually seen the insides of a well built marine fuel tank? Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump/on a mini tear
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump/on a mini tear
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
LaBomba182 wrote:
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Doug Dotson" Makes sense, but there is quite alot of evidence out there that a polishing system is a good thing to have. I can't really increase the size of my on-engine filter. I could increase the size of the Raycor, but at the pore sizes I run (30 micron) in it make it necessary to change the on-engine filter regularly as well. Bigger Raycor won't fix the problem. What's the GPH on your engine? If you go to a larger Racor you could easily change to a smaller micron element. It fact, I have never understood why people don't run as small a micron element as they can in the first filter after the fuel tank. Why let anything near the micron size of the engine mounted filter get to that filter at all? Capt. Bill You don't want too fine a filter on the suction side. On Yanmars (and others), the lift pump can fail sooner due to the restriction. The idea is to do the cleaning in stages: 30 micron before the lift pump, 10 micron just before the high pressure pump. That said, we used 10 micron Racor elements for 8-9 seasons and 1000 hours with no significant ill effects except when we got a shot of algae. The on-engine filter never had any significant dirt on it (or in the bowl). That didn't change much when we went to 30 microns, as it happens. Note: We were able to limp home when the last filter on board clogged up during the algae incident: Pulled the filter and gently brushed junk off of the surface, and drained and cleaned the bowl (again). For a couple of hours, we could only pull half revs, but the fuel cleaned up nicely at reduced flow and (after draining the dead bodies from the bowl again) we had full power for the rest of the season. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
LaBomba182 wrote:
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Doug Dotson" Makes sense, but there is quite alot of evidence out there that a polishing system is a good thing to have. I can't really increase the size of my on-engine filter. I could increase the size of the Raycor, but at the pore sizes I run (30 micron) in it make it necessary to change the on-engine filter regularly as well. Bigger Raycor won't fix the problem. What's the GPH on your engine? If you go to a larger Racor you could easily change to a smaller micron element. It fact, I have never understood why people don't run as small a micron element as they can in the first filter after the fuel tank. Why let anything near the micron size of the engine mounted filter get to that filter at all? Capt. Bill You don't want too fine a filter on the suction side. On Yanmars (and others), the lift pump can fail sooner due to the restriction. The idea is to do the cleaning in stages: 30 micron before the lift pump, 10 micron just before the high pressure pump. That said, we used 10 micron Racor elements for 8-9 seasons and 1000 hours with no significant ill effects except when we got a shot of algae. The on-engine filter never had any significant dirt on it (or in the bowl). That didn't change much when we went to 30 microns, as it happens. Note: We were able to limp home when the last filter on board clogged up during the algae incident: Pulled the filter and gently brushed junk off of the surface, and drained and cleaned the bowl (again). For a couple of hours, we could only pull half revs, but the fuel cleaned up nicely at reduced flow and (after draining the dead bodies from the bowl again) we had full power for the rest of the season. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Ah. And I do believe you're right. Looks like I've started to equate all
petros in my old age.... Rufus Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Rufus wrote: About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Ah. And I do believe you're right. Looks like I've started to equate all
petros in my old age.... Rufus Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Rufus wrote: About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). Next time you get into this type of discussion, ask them how the fibers are held together so that they dont release particles under increasing differential pressure. You need a resin to hold the fibers together. Then ask them how much particulate bypasses the 'knife edge' seal that 'bites' into the end of the paper roll. Then get a glass of water, crumple up some of their paper roll, put it into the glass of water. Wait to see how long the paper takes to disintegrate into a slurry. Tell me where on this planet that there is NO water in fuel oil, either as free water or as an emulsion. ;-) |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). Next time you get into this type of discussion, ask them how the fibers are held together so that they dont release particles under increasing differential pressure. You need a resin to hold the fibers together. Then ask them how much particulate bypasses the 'knife edge' seal that 'bites' into the end of the paper roll. Then get a glass of water, crumple up some of their paper roll, put it into the glass of water. Wait to see how long the paper takes to disintegrate into a slurry. Tell me where on this planet that there is NO water in fuel oil, either as free water or as an emulsion. ;-) |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Most definitely there is a difference. Lubricating oil is at engine temperature which boils off the water vapor of combustion, therefore virtually free of water (which digests the paper). Not so in fuel oil - condensation and ground water leaks into the storage tanks. |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Most definitely there is a difference. Lubricating oil is at engine temperature which boils off the water vapor of combustion, therefore virtually free of water (which digests the paper). Not so in fuel oil - condensation and ground water leaks into the storage tanks. |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Thats entirely untrue (Im being 'kind' here)
If you generate a bacterial slime/gel, that slime will 'de-polarize' and block the flow based on surface area. Just compare the surface of an open spaced (pleats not toughing together) pleated filter versus the surface area of a cylindrical paper roll. Also show me ANY data that you have on removal capacity on a per weight basis vs. particle retention for a "roll of paper" filter. You can of course document to an industry wide standard OSU F-2 test stand test regime ???? I think not. Do you have any retention efficiencies versus face velocity or gpm/psid?? Whats the wet-strength of a roll of Charmin? Bounty? What is thier average retention rating? If you cant, its just SNAKE-OIL. In article , Keith wrote: You need to look at depth filtration for polishing vs. surface filtration like the Racors. They will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel. See the link I posted earlier, and take a look at depth filters like the GCF F-1 or Jr. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I don't have a filter problem, I have a pump question. Doug "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message hlink.net... "Doug Dotson" writes: I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be slow when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump (Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)? Have built the system above which BTW, uses a lot of 1/2" bronze ball valves. You solve the filter problem in a straight forward fashion. Multiple filters (Larger than 500) in parallel to reach at least 60 GPH. I'd built in a safety margin and shoot for at least 75 GPH. HTH -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Thats entirely untrue (Im being 'kind' here)
If you generate a bacterial slime/gel, that slime will 'de-polarize' and block the flow based on surface area. Just compare the surface of an open spaced (pleats not toughing together) pleated filter versus the surface area of a cylindrical paper roll. Also show me ANY data that you have on removal capacity on a per weight basis vs. particle retention for a "roll of paper" filter. You can of course document to an industry wide standard OSU F-2 test stand test regime ???? I think not. Do you have any retention efficiencies versus face velocity or gpm/psid?? Whats the wet-strength of a roll of Charmin? Bounty? What is thier average retention rating? If you cant, its just SNAKE-OIL. In article , Keith wrote: You need to look at depth filtration for polishing vs. surface filtration like the Racors. They will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel. See the link I posted earlier, and take a look at depth filters like the GCF F-1 or Jr. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I don't have a filter problem, I have a pump question. Doug "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message hlink.net... "Doug Dotson" writes: I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be slow when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump (Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)? Have built the system above which BTW, uses a lot of 1/2" bronze ball valves. You solve the filter problem in a straight forward fashion. Multiple filters (Larger than 500) in parallel to reach at least 60 GPH. I'd built in a safety margin and shoot for at least 75 GPH. HTH -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:14:16 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote: At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). Next time you get into this type of discussion, ask them how the fibers are held together so that they dont release particles under increasing differential pressure. You need a resin to hold the fibers together. Then ask them how much particulate bypasses the 'knife edge' seal that 'bites' into the end of the paper roll. Then get a glass of water, crumple up some of their paper roll, put it into the glass of water. Wait to see how long the paper takes to disintegrate into a slurry. Tell me where on this planet that there is NO water in fuel oil, either as free water or as an emulsion. ;-) Apparently in my tank since after filtering quite a lot of fuel, the paper elements come out in one hard solid piece. Even before I installed the filters, I got tiny amounts of water in the bottom drain of my Racor. One other thing you're forgetting is that even if the paper element does trap water (which of course it will if there is water in the fuel) the water ends up staying on the bottom of the element because it's heavier then the fuel, and since oil and water don't mix the water doesn't get drawn up into the top part of the filter since it's already soaked in oil. The fuel flows from bottom to top through the canister so any "disintegrated" paper will be trapped by the water-free paper above it. You have to significantly fill the canister with water before any water impregnated paper "slurry" can possibly get out. If you have that much of a water problem, you should be changing the elements frequently. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:14:16 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote: At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). Next time you get into this type of discussion, ask them how the fibers are held together so that they dont release particles under increasing differential pressure. You need a resin to hold the fibers together. Then ask them how much particulate bypasses the 'knife edge' seal that 'bites' into the end of the paper roll. Then get a glass of water, crumple up some of their paper roll, put it into the glass of water. Wait to see how long the paper takes to disintegrate into a slurry. Tell me where on this planet that there is NO water in fuel oil, either as free water or as an emulsion. ;-) Apparently in my tank since after filtering quite a lot of fuel, the paper elements come out in one hard solid piece. Even before I installed the filters, I got tiny amounts of water in the bottom drain of my Racor. One other thing you're forgetting is that even if the paper element does trap water (which of course it will if there is water in the fuel) the water ends up staying on the bottom of the element because it's heavier then the fuel, and since oil and water don't mix the water doesn't get drawn up into the top part of the filter since it's already soaked in oil. The fuel flows from bottom to top through the canister so any "disintegrated" paper will be trapped by the water-free paper above it. You have to significantly fill the canister with water before any water impregnated paper "slurry" can possibly get out. If you have that much of a water problem, you should be changing the elements frequently. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/
Belgoes used to be a good supplier, but they're gone TU. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though :) Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Steve Rufus wrote: About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed truck and heavy equipment fleets. They swore by the paper filters (paper towel or TP) and used them on their own personal trucks. You could probably find the threads on google. Rufus -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/
Belgoes used to be a good supplier, but they're gone TU. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though :) Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote: I believe that was for OIL not diesel. Not much difference between diesel and oil. Steve Rufus wrote: About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed truck and heavy equipment fleets. They swore by the paper filters (paper towel or TP) and used them on their own personal trucks. You could probably find the threads on google. Rufus -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
What's untrue? That a racor element will clog up very fast if you have dirty
fuel? Actually the "surface area" would be much greater in a paper towel, since you are filtering through from one end to the other, while the racor only filters through the pleated surface. By the way, what do you mean by "de-polarize"? Are you saying that slime is magnetic? Or that they are polar molecules, like water? Maybe that's how those algae-x things work! Can you quote the specs for all those test methods you mentioned for a Racor... any racor/filter combination? Pick one. "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Thats entirely untrue (Im being 'kind' here) If you generate a bacterial slime/gel, that slime will 'de-polarize' and block the flow based on surface area. Just compare the surface of an open spaced (pleats not toughing together) pleated filter versus the surface area of a cylindrical paper roll. Also show me ANY data that you have on removal capacity on a per weight basis vs. particle retention for a "roll of paper" filter. You can of course document to an industry wide standard OSU F-2 test stand test regime ???? I think not. Do you have any retention efficiencies versus face velocity or gpm/psid?? Whats the wet-strength of a roll of Charmin? Bounty? What is thier average retention rating? If you cant, its just SNAKE-OIL. In article , Keith wrote: You need to look at depth filtration for polishing vs. surface filtration like the Racors. They will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel. See the link I posted earlier, and take a look at depth filters like the GCF F-1 or Jr. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I don't have a filter problem, I have a pump question. Doug "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message hlink.net... "Doug Dotson" writes: I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be slow when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump (Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)? Have built the system above which BTW, uses a lot of 1/2" bronze ball valves. You solve the filter problem in a straight forward fashion. Multiple filters (Larger than 500) in parallel to reach at least 60 GPH. I'd built in a safety margin and shoot for at least 75 GPH. HTH -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
What's untrue? That a racor element will clog up very fast if you have dirty
fuel? Actually the "surface area" would be much greater in a paper towel, since you are filtering through from one end to the other, while the racor only filters through the pleated surface. By the way, what do you mean by "de-polarize"? Are you saying that slime is magnetic? Or that they are polar molecules, like water? Maybe that's how those algae-x things work! Can you quote the specs for all those test methods you mentioned for a Racor... any racor/filter combination? Pick one. "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Thats entirely untrue (Im being 'kind' here) If you generate a bacterial slime/gel, that slime will 'de-polarize' and block the flow based on surface area. Just compare the surface of an open spaced (pleats not toughing together) pleated filter versus the surface area of a cylindrical paper roll. Also show me ANY data that you have on removal capacity on a per weight basis vs. particle retention for a "roll of paper" filter. You can of course document to an industry wide standard OSU F-2 test stand test regime ???? I think not. Do you have any retention efficiencies versus face velocity or gpm/psid?? Whats the wet-strength of a roll of Charmin? Bounty? What is thier average retention rating? If you cant, its just SNAKE-OIL. In article , Keith wrote: You need to look at depth filtration for polishing vs. surface filtration like the Racors. They will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel. See the link I posted earlier, and take a look at depth filters like the GCF F-1 or Jr. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I don't have a filter problem, I have a pump question. Doug "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message hlink.net... "Doug Dotson" writes: I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be slow when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump (Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)? Have built the system above which BTW, uses a lot of 1/2" bronze ball valves. You solve the filter problem in a straight forward fashion. Multiple filters (Larger than 500) in parallel to reach at least 60 GPH. I'd built in a safety margin and shoot for at least 75 GPH. HTH -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
No offense -- but have you? They're are not solid top to bottom as you seem
to suggest. The plate bottoms, in particular, usually have tunnels. -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. But he is only stirring up one baffeled area in the tank unless he has access plates to each area. No offense, but how many of you have actually seen the insides of a elwell built marine fuel tank?el Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
No offense -- but have you? They're are not solid top to bottom as you seem
to suggest. The plate bottoms, in particular, usually have tunnels. -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. But he is only stirring up one baffeled area in the tank unless he has access plates to each area. No offense, but how many of you have actually seen the insides of a elwell built marine fuel tank?el Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Even with all the things Rich mentions here, the bottom line is that
these systems seem to work. From all those I have talked to that have a Raycor following the TP filter, the 2 uM Raycor element stays very clean for long periods of time and only accumulates a small bit of water. Then when the fuel is taken up by the engine it is going through another Raycor and then the engine filter. I have pretty high confidence that the engine is getting clean fuel. One other thing I am planning is to have the polishing system uptake lower in the tank than the engine fuel uptake. Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:14:16 GMT, Rich Hampel wrote: At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). Next time you get into this type of discussion, ask them how the fibers are held together so that they dont release particles under increasing differential pressure. You need a resin to hold the fibers together. Then ask them how much particulate bypasses the 'knife edge' seal that 'bites' into the end of the paper roll. Then get a glass of water, crumple up some of their paper roll, put it into the glass of water. Wait to see how long the paper takes to disintegrate into a slurry. Tell me where on this planet that there is NO water in fuel oil, either as free water or as an emulsion. ;-) Apparently in my tank since after filtering quite a lot of fuel, the paper elements come out in one hard solid piece. Even before I installed the filters, I got tiny amounts of water in the bottom drain of my Racor. One other thing you're forgetting is that even if the paper element does trap water (which of course it will if there is water in the fuel) the water ends up staying on the bottom of the element because it's heavier then the fuel, and since oil and water don't mix the water doesn't get drawn up into the top part of the filter since it's already soaked in oil. The fuel flows from bottom to top through the canister so any "disintegrated" paper will be trapped by the water-free paper above it. You have to significantly fill the canister with water before any water impregnated paper "slurry" can possibly get out. If you have that much of a water problem, you should be changing the elements frequently. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Even with all the things Rich mentions here, the bottom line is that
these systems seem to work. From all those I have talked to that have a Raycor following the TP filter, the 2 uM Raycor element stays very clean for long periods of time and only accumulates a small bit of water. Then when the fuel is taken up by the engine it is going through another Raycor and then the engine filter. I have pretty high confidence that the engine is getting clean fuel. One other thing I am planning is to have the polishing system uptake lower in the tank than the engine fuel uptake. Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:14:16 GMT, Rich Hampel wrote: At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). Next time you get into this type of discussion, ask them how the fibers are held together so that they dont release particles under increasing differential pressure. You need a resin to hold the fibers together. Then ask them how much particulate bypasses the 'knife edge' seal that 'bites' into the end of the paper roll. Then get a glass of water, crumple up some of their paper roll, put it into the glass of water. Wait to see how long the paper takes to disintegrate into a slurry. Tell me where on this planet that there is NO water in fuel oil, either as free water or as an emulsion. ;-) Apparently in my tank since after filtering quite a lot of fuel, the paper elements come out in one hard solid piece. Even before I installed the filters, I got tiny amounts of water in the bottom drain of my Racor. One other thing you're forgetting is that even if the paper element does trap water (which of course it will if there is water in the fuel) the water ends up staying on the bottom of the element because it's heavier then the fuel, and since oil and water don't mix the water doesn't get drawn up into the top part of the filter since it's already soaked in oil. The fuel flows from bottom to top through the canister so any "disintegrated" paper will be trapped by the water-free paper above it. You have to significantly fill the canister with water before any water impregnated paper "slurry" can possibly get out. If you have that much of a water problem, you should be changing the elements frequently. Steve |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
But the reality is that these things do work. There is tons of
annecdotal evedence. Please explain to me how it is that after hours of polishing, the TP element is black with gunk and the 2uM Raycor following it still relatively clean. I really don't need all these specs to allow me to believe what I can see with my own eyes. Plus having the 2 uM Raycor at the end gives me a safety net in case any of the little bugger sneak around the TP. Then another couple filters (Raycor + engine filter) further protect the engine. Is the filter on the engine the Primary or Secondary. DIfferent folks seem to use different terminology. Doug s/v Callista "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Thats entirely untrue (Im being 'kind' here) If you generate a bacterial slime/gel, that slime will 'de-polarize' and block the flow based on surface area. Just compare the surface of an open spaced (pleats not toughing together) pleated filter versus the surface area of a cylindrical paper roll. Also show me ANY data that you have on removal capacity on a per weight basis vs. particle retention for a "roll of paper" filter. You can of course document to an industry wide standard OSU F-2 test stand test regime ???? I think not. Do you have any retention efficiencies versus face velocity or gpm/psid?? Whats the wet-strength of a roll of Charmin? Bounty? What is thier average retention rating? If you cant, its just SNAKE-OIL. In article , Keith wrote: You need to look at depth filtration for polishing vs. surface filtration like the Racors. They will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel. See the link I posted earlier, and take a look at depth filters like the GCF F-1 or Jr. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I don't have a filter problem, I have a pump question. Doug "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message hlink.net... "Doug Dotson" writes: I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be slow when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump (Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)? Have built the system above which BTW, uses a lot of 1/2" bronze ball valves. You solve the filter problem in a straight forward fashion. Multiple filters (Larger than 500) in parallel to reach at least 60 GPH. I'd built in a safety margin and shoot for at least 75 GPH. HTH -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
But the reality is that these things do work. There is tons of
annecdotal evedence. Please explain to me how it is that after hours of polishing, the TP element is black with gunk and the 2uM Raycor following it still relatively clean. I really don't need all these specs to allow me to believe what I can see with my own eyes. Plus having the 2 uM Raycor at the end gives me a safety net in case any of the little bugger sneak around the TP. Then another couple filters (Raycor + engine filter) further protect the engine. Is the filter on the engine the Primary or Secondary. DIfferent folks seem to use different terminology. Doug s/v Callista "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Thats entirely untrue (Im being 'kind' here) If you generate a bacterial slime/gel, that slime will 'de-polarize' and block the flow based on surface area. Just compare the surface of an open spaced (pleats not toughing together) pleated filter versus the surface area of a cylindrical paper roll. Also show me ANY data that you have on removal capacity on a per weight basis vs. particle retention for a "roll of paper" filter. You can of course document to an industry wide standard OSU F-2 test stand test regime ???? I think not. Do you have any retention efficiencies versus face velocity or gpm/psid?? Whats the wet-strength of a roll of Charmin? Bounty? What is thier average retention rating? If you cant, its just SNAKE-OIL. In article , Keith wrote: You need to look at depth filtration for polishing vs. surface filtration like the Racors. They will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel. See the link I posted earlier, and take a look at depth filters like the GCF F-1 or Jr. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I don't have a filter problem, I have a pump question. Doug "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message hlink.net... "Doug Dotson" writes: I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be slow when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump (Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)? Have built the system above which BTW, uses a lot of 1/2" bronze ball valves. You solve the filter problem in a straight forward fashion. Multiple filters (Larger than 500) in parallel to reach at least 60 GPH. I'd built in a safety margin and shoot for at least 75 GPH. HTH -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
They have to, and there is usually a hole through the baffles at the
lowest point of each baffle. Doug s/v Callista "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... No offense -- but have you? They're are not solid top to bottom as you seem to suggest. The plate bottoms, in particular, usually have tunnels. -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. But he is only stirring up one baffeled area in the tank unless he has access plates to each area. No offense, but how many of you have actually seen the insides of a elwell built marine fuel tank?el Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
They have to, and there is usually a hole through the baffles at the
lowest point of each baffle. Doug s/v Callista "Len Krauss" wrote in message ... No offense -- but have you? They're are not solid top to bottom as you seem to suggest. The plate bottoms, in particular, usually have tunnels. -- Eliminate "ns" for email address. As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air around the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air hose, and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it around. He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to help keep particulate matter in suspension. But he is only stirring up one baffeled area in the tank unless he has access plates to each area. No offense, but how many of you have actually seen the insides of a elwell built marine fuel tank?el Capt. Bill |
Fuel transfer/polishing pump
In article , Keith
wrote: What's untrue? That a racor element will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel? ***** Not in comparison to a cylindrical paper roll. Or do you mean that the efficiency of a toilt paper roll is soooooo low that it captures virtually nothing except very large visible particles that is continues to unload at the same rate that it captures.... and all the while buirning up amperage to run the pump to overcome the high CLEAN differential pressure required. If a filter plugs, then it did its job !!!!!!!!!! Its not the job of a filter to pass particulate at its designated retention rating. Whats the retention rating of toilet paper ??????? .... why doesnt it plug up when hit with a slug of particles???? Have any data on the residual particle level in a tank after X passes through the 'filter'. Actually the "surface area" would be much greater in a paper towel, ***** How is the surface of a pleated filter less than the surface of a cylinder?. Doesnt make sense. A typical pleated 2.5" dia. X 10" filter has a surface area of 5 to 6 sq. ft. A toilet paper roll of 4.5" dia X 4" long has a surface of 0.4 square ft. Thats 12 to 15 times MORE surface area for the pleated for a normal recirc. installation. since you are filtering through from one end to the other, while the racor only filters through the pleated surface. By the way, what do you mean by "de-polarize"? ***** Electropolization of the long chain agglomerated macro-molecules ..... same thing that probably allows a woman to get pregnenat once a month. ... Are you saying that slime is magnetic? *****NO Or that they are polar molecules, like water? ***** Yes they can be Maybe that's how those algae-x things work! Yes....But, I have NO idea (nor interest) about algae-x ... if it works or not :-) Can you quote the specs for all those test methods you mentioned for a Racor... any racor/filter combination? Pick one. Any 'reliable' filter manufactuerer uses (and can document compliance to) the following data to compare filters. Those that cant or wont are usually 'shysters' or are totally ignorant of filtration and offer ratings that are ENTIRELY ARBITRARY (a kind word for: liars). The test is a universal standardized test adopted ASTM. The test curently used was developed about 1960 for comparisons of filtration efficiency by the Oklahoma State University - called the OSU F2 test-stand (and defines a standardized test contaminent to establish equal comparisons between filtration media) - its THE industry standard for coarse filtration. A Racor type or other resinated pleated paper will usually test out to a 'beta value' (log of upstream challenge to downstream challenge between a beta value of 1000 - meaning about 95-98% weight efficiency. An unresinated paper upon increasing differential pressure will ***unload*** at approximately a beta value of 50 (less than ~25% efficiency). I am deeply involved in filtration engineering and do consulting work that includes depth filters made of cellulose (with binding resins). A cellulosic filter media needs a binder for strength and sometimes the addition of Perlite to enhance wet-strength .... or it simply compresses to stop flow OR falls apart in the presence of water and other liquids. Commercial/Industrial depth filters for fuel oil also sometimes include diatomaceous earth to enhance the retention and service life .... plus the addition of elemental starches for the absorbtion of free water (for 'trimming' /absorbtion of water emulsion). Without a graded pore density a cellulosic filter captures virutally ALL the particles on the surface (cylinder). A paper made into toilet paper or paper towels is made from very coarse fiber stock - poor permeability vs. flow AND contains lots of small chopped fibers that they themselves are free to migrate out of the paper matrix (particles themselves). That a toilet paper filter works (at all) depends on LOW differential pressure (or the cellulose compresses into a 'sludge') but does take into account statistical particle reduction of multiple pass filtration of recirculation mode. Its pretty false economy to have overpriced, poorly performing/designed housings and then put in a poorly performing 'toilet paper' 'filter' that has NO certifiable retention rating, is made from paper that is variable in density, is made from paper that is specifically MADE TO DIGEST and FALL APART in the presence of water/liquids. Fibers for toilet paper and paper towel rolls are NOT arranged into a graded pore density (the retention of the upsteam surface is larger than the downstream or exit portion of the depth of media) such as a typical TRUE depth filter': which means grade pore density....pores/cpature sites get smaller as one goes deeper into the matrix. For a fixed pre density (such a roll of toilet paper) what is not captured on the surface can migrate all-the-way-through the 'filter. Your implication of successive potential sucessive capture sites is only for VERY LARGE particles as with smaller and smaller size particles the removal mechanism of inertial impaction capture decrease logrithmically. A roll of toilet paper will wrinkle-up into a 'little knot' when high differential pressures are applied while UNLOADING most of the debris that it originally captured. This 'technology' came out the "oil-patch" in the 1920s, has been replaced by fixed pore, graded pore density depth pads or cartridges (in the 1970s). A pleated resin bound filter cartridge uses a vastly smaller filter housing. A pleated paper. Typical true depth filtration in cartridge form requires housings that are 5-10 times the size (cost) of a pleated configuration -------- to do the same exact job. The pleated resinated paper filter has VASTLY less resistance to flow, has a defined retention rating, will allow the pump to deliver more volumetric flow rate and at less amperage draw, requires smaller housing (on an equal flow basis) @ first /installation cost, has documented retention, flux. .... because of these advantages will reduce the resident particles in a tank to nearly undetectable limits ****exponentially faster**** than a filter that inherently DOES NOT FLOW and has poor retention ability, .... I guess an advantage is that the amperage draw of such a toilet paper system can help heat the interior of a boat in winter! Please answer the following: What is the collapse pressure of a toilet paper roll? What is the particle retention rating on either an absolute basis or 'nominal' rating? How about a beta value? or do you just depends on 'dumb luck'. What is the loss of efficiency due to the 'knife edge seals? What is the percent of bypass at 30uM at the knife edge? 20uM, 10uM, 2uM What is the wet strength rating? What is the recommended flow rate of a toilet paper roll? How do you 'size' a toilet paper filter to operate at the low motive pressure of a fuel system? Is it ....."Just BUY one and see if it works" .... hardly! Tell me which toilet paper mill makes a 'technical grade' of paper? Tell again that a rolled paper filter is more efficient than a 'cartridge'. ... include the PRICE of the housing in your evaluation/reply. Whats the 'dirt capacity' of a to9ilet paper roll? A 2.5" dia X 10" pleated typically has about 150 grams capacity..... an equivalent cartridge true depth filter (in cartridge format) will have about 20-25 grams capacity. ;-) |
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