Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well. So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From:

By the way, instead of saying "But that's a red herring since it's not
usually the oil pump that wears out due to dirty lubricating oil." I
should have said "But that's a red herring since it's not usually the
oil pump that wears out *prematurely" due to dirty lubricating oil."

True.
I was just using the pump to pump comparison because those are the first things
each oil sees (not counting the diaphragm pump on most diesels) as they get to
the engine. Perhaps not the best comparison.

But I still believe my point is valid.
That fuel oil needs to be filtered and kept clean to a higher degree than fuel
oil to keep a fuel injected engine running well.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From:

By the way, instead of saying "But that's a red herring since it's not
usually the oil pump that wears out due to dirty lubricating oil." I
should have said "But that's a red herring since it's not usually the
oil pump that wears out *prematurely" due to dirty lubricating oil."

True.
I was just using the pump to pump comparison because those are the first things
each oil sees (not counting the diaphragm pump on most diesels) as they get to
the engine. Perhaps not the best comparison.

But I still believe my point is valid.
That fuel oil needs to be filtered and kept clean to a higher degree than fuel
oil to keep a fuel injected engine running well.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

After having my lift pump fail half way across the Gulf Stream, I think
I'll stick to what Yanmar and the mechanic in FL suggested even
beyond the warranty.

Did your sails fail too? :-)

And didn't you say you had electric priming pumps?
If so, why did you not use those to run the engine?

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

After having my lift pump fail half way across the Gulf Stream, I think
I'll stick to what Yanmar and the mechanic in FL suggested even
beyond the warranty.

Did your sails fail too? :-)

And didn't you say you had electric priming pumps?
If so, why did you not use those to run the engine?

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Getting things shaken
up is the best thing I can hope for.

I can just see the looks on the crews faces as you say, "pray for rough
weather, I need to clean my fuel". :-)

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Getting things shaken
up is the best thing I can hope for.

I can just see the looks on the crews faces as you say, "pray for rough
weather, I need to clean my fuel". :-)

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"



"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From:

On 29 Nov 2003 20:48:01 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: (Steven Shelikoff)

Not much difference between diesel and oil.

Perhaps, but there is a world of difference between the tolerances
of a
fuel
injector pump and an oil pump.

True. But that's a red herring since it's not usually the oil pump
that
wears out due to dirty lubricating oil.

Not quite. A 350 Chevy engine will run for a long time, years maybe,
with
dirty
oil.
A diesel injection pump and/or injectors with dirty fuel will not.

Capt. Bill

Invalid statement.

Really? Without foundation. How so?

Are you saying a diesel will run a long time with dirty fuel?

No, I said that a diesel will run a long time with dirty oil.

In one case you are talking about lubrication oil,
in the other your are talking about fuel.

Correct. But that does that make those statements "invalid"?

Yes.

A diesel will run quite a
long time without changing the oil just a s gas engine will.

Of course it will.
But that has no relation to how long it will run with dirty or poorly
filtered
fuel. Other than to back up just what I was saying, that lubricating oil
does
not need to be filtered as well as fuel oil to keep a fuel injected engine
running.

Absolutely.


Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"



"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From:

On 29 Nov 2003 20:48:01 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: (Steven Shelikoff)

Not much difference between diesel and oil.

Perhaps, but there is a world of difference between the tolerances
of a
fuel
injector pump and an oil pump.

True. But that's a red herring since it's not usually the oil pump
that
wears out due to dirty lubricating oil.

Not quite. A 350 Chevy engine will run for a long time, years maybe,
with
dirty
oil.
A diesel injection pump and/or injectors with dirty fuel will not.

Capt. Bill

Invalid statement.

Really? Without foundation. How so?

Are you saying a diesel will run a long time with dirty fuel?

No, I said that a diesel will run a long time with dirty oil.

In one case you are talking about lubrication oil,
in the other your are talking about fuel.

Correct. But that does that make those statements "invalid"?

Yes.

A diesel will run quite a
long time without changing the oil just a s gas engine will.

Of course it will.
But that has no relation to how long it will run with dirty or poorly
filtered
fuel. Other than to back up just what I was saying, that lubricating oil
does
not need to be filtered as well as fuel oil to keep a fuel injected engine
running.

Absolutely.


Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

If it is away from the pickup, then it isn't entering into the problem.
If things get stirred up then the polishing system will do its job
better.

Of course. But in the context of "bubbling" the fuel to "polish" it, it doesn't
do much good.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

If it is away from the pickup, then it isn't entering into the problem.
If things get stirred up then the polishing system will do its job
better.

Of course. But in the context of "bubbling" the fuel to "polish" it, it doesn't
do much good.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From:

By the way, instead of saying "But that's a red herring since it's not
usually the oil pump that wears out due to dirty lubricating oil." I
should have said "But that's a red herring since it's not usually the
oil pump that wears out *prematurely" due to dirty lubricating oil."

True.
I was just using the pump to pump comparison because those are the first
things
each oil sees (not counting the diaphragm pump on most diesels) as they
get to
the engine. Perhaps not the best comparison.

But I still believe my point is valid.
That fuel oil needs to be filtered and kept clean to a higher degree than
fuel
oil to keep a fuel injected engine running well.

Have another beer. Please clarify that "...fuel oil needs to be kept clean
to a higher
degree than fuel oil..."? You lost me.


Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From:

By the way, instead of saying "But that's a red herring since it's not
usually the oil pump that wears out due to dirty lubricating oil." I
should have said "But that's a red herring since it's not usually the
oil pump that wears out *prematurely" due to dirty lubricating oil."

True.
I was just using the pump to pump comparison because those are the first
things
each oil sees (not counting the diaphragm pump on most diesels) as they
get to
the engine. Perhaps not the best comparison.

But I still believe my point is valid.
That fuel oil needs to be filtered and kept clean to a higher degree than
fuel
oil to keep a fuel injected engine running well.

Have another beer. Please clarify that "...fuel oil needs to be kept clean
to a higher
degree than fuel oil..."? You lost me.


Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

After having my lift pump fail half way across the Gulf Stream, I think
I'll stick to what Yanmar and the mechanic in FL suggested even
beyond the warranty.

Did your sails fail too? :-)

No, we sailed to the point where we needed a tow to get into Lake Worth
Inlet.
Didn't seem prudent to try and sail through the inlet.

And didn't you say you had electric priming pumps?

No. Not until after getting repairs at Rybovich. We have one now.

If so, why did you not use those to run the engine?

QED

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

After having my lift pump fail half way across the Gulf Stream, I think
I'll stick to what Yanmar and the mechanic in FL suggested even
beyond the warranty.

Did your sails fail too? :-)

No, we sailed to the point where we needed a tow to get into Lake Worth
Inlet.
Didn't seem prudent to try and sail through the inlet.

And didn't you say you had electric priming pumps?

No. Not until after getting repairs at Rybovich. We have one now.

If so, why did you not use those to run the engine?

QED

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

I assumed it was understood that there would have to be a way for the fuel
to
travel from one baffled area to the next.

And hence the crud as well.

Yes, but only if the fuel is well shaken, not "bubbled" in one baffle. And
that's the context that my answer was written in.

I assumed that was understood. :-)

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

I assumed it was understood that there would have to be a way for the fuel
to
travel from one baffled area to the next.

And hence the crud as well.

Yes, but only if the fuel is well shaken, not "bubbled" in one baffle. And
that's the context that my answer was written in.

I assumed that was understood. :-)

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Whatever. You've lost sight of the outcome being strived for. Don't
need bad weather. Just a trip down the ICW will stir up the fuel
tanks.

Doug
s/v Callista


"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Getting things shaken
up is the best thing I can hope for.

I can just see the looks on the crews faces as you say, "pray for rough
weather, I need to clean my fuel". :-)

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Whatever. You've lost sight of the outcome being strived for. Don't
need bad weather. Just a trip down the ICW will stir up the fuel
tanks.

Doug
s/v Callista


"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Getting things shaken
up is the best thing I can hope for.

I can just see the looks on the crews faces as you say, "pray for rough
weather, I need to clean my fuel". :-)

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well. So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well. So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:44:05 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

With the system I described below, what you can do is, while the engine
is not running (there are long periods when it's off, right?) shut off
the valve to the engine intake. Then you have your system that can
recirculate fuel through the filtering system and clean the fuel in the
tank without it going to the engine. Leave the pump on for a few days
or until the filters clog, whichever comes first, before opening the
valve to the engine. Then open the engine valve to run it and it'll get
the freshest filtered fuel possible because it's drawing it right from
the polishing system.

Of course, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that if you don't
install polishing system bypass valves, you have to run the walbro pump
whenever you're running the engine. I've found that to be not all that
much of a disadvantage and the advantage is that fuel is being polished
whenever the engine is running. You can always wire it into the
ignition switch with a double solenoid relay so that the pump can be
controlled via the ignition switch or another switch with a 12 hour
timer so you can set it and leave the boat and it'll turn off on it's
own after running for 12 hours.

There sre so many different ways you can plumb the thing. The more
flexability you want, the more valves and piping you need. The
disadvantage to making it too flexable is that it becomes too complex
and prone to operator error as well as developing a vacuum leak
somewhere.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

I know. I didn't use tabs though, just spaces. So if you cut'n'paste
the schematic into a word processor and choose a fixed width font it'll
look fine.

Steve

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well. So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:44:05 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

With the system I described below, what you can do is, while the engine
is not running (there are long periods when it's off, right?) shut off
the valve to the engine intake. Then you have your system that can
recirculate fuel through the filtering system and clean the fuel in the
tank without it going to the engine. Leave the pump on for a few days
or until the filters clog, whichever comes first, before opening the
valve to the engine. Then open the engine valve to run it and it'll get
the freshest filtered fuel possible because it's drawing it right from
the polishing system.

Of course, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that if you don't
install polishing system bypass valves, you have to run the walbro pump
whenever you're running the engine. I've found that to be not all that
much of a disadvantage and the advantage is that fuel is being polished
whenever the engine is running. You can always wire it into the
ignition switch with a double solenoid relay so that the pump can be
controlled via the ignition switch or another switch with a 12 hour
timer so you can set it and leave the boat and it'll turn off on it's
own after running for 12 hours.

There sre so many different ways you can plumb the thing. The more
flexability you want, the more valves and piping you need. The
disadvantage to making it too flexable is that it becomes too complex
and prone to operator error as well as developing a vacuum leak
somewhere.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

I know. I didn't use tabs though, just spaces. So if you cut'n'paste
the schematic into a word processor and choose a fixed width font it'll
look fine.

Steve

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well. So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On 04 Dec 2003 04:04:56 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

If it is away from the pickup, then it isn't entering into the problem.
If things get stirred up then the polishing system will do its job
better.

Of course. But in the context of "bubbling" the fuel to "polish" it, it doesn't
do much good.

This is why I like the way my system is plumbed, i.e., the engine draws
from the polishing system. That way, you don't have to worry about
stirring up the fuel to polish it. If the engine is running and you're
in rough weather, it's being filtered before going to the engine. If
you have it in a separate loop and you run into rough weather that stirs
up the tank, you can introduce dirt from the tank wall that wasn't
dislodged while you were polishing and it'll get to the engine.

You don't have to worry about bubbling or stirring it up if it's always
being filtered before getting to the engine. And you can run the system
with the engine off also to get a multiple pass circulation just like if
it was in a separate loop.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On 04 Dec 2003 04:04:56 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

If it is away from the pickup, then it isn't entering into the problem.
If things get stirred up then the polishing system will do its job
better.

Of course. But in the context of "bubbling" the fuel to "polish" it, it doesn't
do much good.

This is why I like the way my system is plumbed, i.e., the engine draws
from the polishing system. That way, you don't have to worry about
stirring up the fuel to polish it. If the engine is running and you're
in rough weather, it's being filtered before going to the engine. If
you have it in a separate loop and you run into rough weather that stirs
up the tank, you can introduce dirt from the tank wall that wasn't
dislodged while you were polishing and it'll get to the engine.

You don't have to worry about bubbling or stirring it up if it's always
being filtered before getting to the engine. And you can run the system
with the engine off also to get a multiple pass circulation just like if
it was in a separate loop.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Good suggestions. I'll try and clean up the schematic and take a
closer look at it.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:44:05 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the
engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine
than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

With the system I described below, what you can do is, while the engine
is not running (there are long periods when it's off, right?) shut off
the valve to the engine intake. Then you have your system that can
recirculate fuel through the filtering system and clean the fuel in the
tank without it going to the engine. Leave the pump on for a few days
or until the filters clog, whichever comes first, before opening the
valve to the engine. Then open the engine valve to run it and it'll get
the freshest filtered fuel possible because it's drawing it right from
the polishing system.

Of course, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that if you don't
install polishing system bypass valves, you have to run the walbro pump
whenever you're running the engine. I've found that to be not all that
much of a disadvantage and the advantage is that fuel is being polished
whenever the engine is running. You can always wire it into the
ignition switch with a double solenoid relay so that the pump can be
controlled via the ignition switch or another switch with a 12 hour
timer so you can set it and leave the boat and it'll turn off on it's
own after running for 12 hours.

There sre so many different ways you can plumb the thing. The more
flexability you want, the more valves and piping you need. The
disadvantage to making it too flexable is that it becomes too complex
and prone to operator error as well as developing a vacuum leak
somewhere.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

I know. I didn't use tabs though, just spaces. So if you cut'n'paste
the schematic into a word processor and choose a fixed width font it'll
look fine.

Steve

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing
system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well.
So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes
to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install
vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor
and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return
lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system
return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also
use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Good suggestions. I'll try and clean up the schematic and take a
closer look at it.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:44:05 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the
engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine
than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

With the system I described below, what you can do is, while the engine
is not running (there are long periods when it's off, right?) shut off
the valve to the engine intake. Then you have your system that can
recirculate fuel through the filtering system and clean the fuel in the
tank without it going to the engine. Leave the pump on for a few days
or until the filters clog, whichever comes first, before opening the
valve to the engine. Then open the engine valve to run it and it'll get
the freshest filtered fuel possible because it's drawing it right from
the polishing system.

Of course, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that if you don't
install polishing system bypass valves, you have to run the walbro pump
whenever you're running the engine. I've found that to be not all that
much of a disadvantage and the advantage is that fuel is being polished
whenever the engine is running. You can always wire it into the
ignition switch with a double solenoid relay so that the pump can be
controlled via the ignition switch or another switch with a 12 hour
timer so you can set it and leave the boat and it'll turn off on it's
own after running for 12 hours.

There sre so many different ways you can plumb the thing. The more
flexability you want, the more valves and piping you need. The
disadvantage to making it too flexable is that it becomes too complex
and prone to operator error as well as developing a vacuum leak
somewhere.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

I know. I didn't use tabs though, just spaces. So if you cut'n'paste
the schematic into a word processor and choose a fixed width font it'll
look fine.

Steve

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing
system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well.
So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes
to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install
vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor
and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return
lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system
return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also
use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Whatever.

It was a joke Doug. Note the :-)

You've lost sight of the outcome being strived for.

Hardly.

Don't
need bad weather. Just a trip down the ICW will stir up the fuel
tanks.


If you say so.
But I would doubt it.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Whatever.

It was a joke Doug. Note the :-)

You've lost sight of the outcome being strived for.

Hardly.

Don't
need bad weather. Just a trip down the ICW will stir up the fuel
tanks.


If you say so.
But I would doubt it.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From:

This is why I like the way my system is plumbed, i.e., the engine draws
from the polishing system. That way, you don't have to worry about
stirring up the fuel to polish it. If the engine is running and you're
in rough weather, it's being filtered before going to the engine. If
you have it in a separate loop and you run into rough weather that stirs
up the tank, you can introduce dirt from the tank wall that wasn't
dislodged while you were polishing and it'll get to the engine.

You don't have to worry about bubbling or stirring it up if it's always
being filtered before getting to the engine. And you can run the system
with the engine off also to get a multiple pass circulation just like if
it was in a separate loop.

Sounds good to me.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From:

This is why I like the way my system is plumbed, i.e., the engine draws
from the polishing system. That way, you don't have to worry about
stirring up the fuel to polish it. If the engine is running and you're
in rough weather, it's being filtered before going to the engine. If
you have it in a separate loop and you run into rough weather that stirs
up the tank, you can introduce dirt from the tank wall that wasn't
dislodged while you were polishing and it'll get to the engine.

You don't have to worry about bubbling or stirring it up if it's always
being filtered before getting to the engine. And you can run the system
with the engine off also to get a multiple pass circulation just like if
it was in a separate loop.

Sounds good to me.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Have another beer. Please clarify that "...fuel oil needs to be kept clean
to a higher
degree than fuel oil..."? You lost me.



It's an obvious miss statement.
I of course meant to write: "...fuel oil needs to be kept clean
to a higher
degree than lubricating oil..."

I'm not drinking Doug. But based on some of your replys I have had my doubts
about you. :-)
Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Have another beer. Please clarify that "...fuel oil needs to be kept clean
to a higher
degree than fuel oil..."? You lost me.



It's an obvious miss statement.
I of course meant to write: "...fuel oil needs to be kept clean
to a higher
degree than lubricating oil..."

I'm not drinking Doug. But based on some of your replys I have had my doubts
about you. :-)
Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

Doug


"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Have another beer. Please clarify that "...fuel oil needs to be kept
clean
to a higher
degree than fuel oil..."? You lost me.



It's an obvious miss statement.
I of course meant to write: "...fuel oil needs to be kept clean
to a higher
degree than lubricating oil..."

I'm not drinking Doug. But based on some of your replys I have had my
doubts
about you. :-)
Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

Doug


"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Have another beer. Please clarify that "...fuel oil needs to be kept
clean
to a higher
degree than fuel oil..."? You lost me.



It's an obvious miss statement.
I of course meant to write: "...fuel oil needs to be kept clean
to a higher
degree than lubricating oil..."

I'm not drinking Doug. But based on some of your replys I have had my
doubts
about you. :-)
Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

After having my lift pump fail half way across the Gulf Stream, I think
I'll stick to what Yanmar and the mechanic in FL suggested even
beyond the warranty.

Did your sails fail too? :-)

No, we sailed to the point where we needed a tow to get into Lake Worth
Inlet.
Didn't seem prudent to try and sail through the inlet.

Makes sense.


And didn't you say you had electric priming pumps?

No. Not until after getting repairs at Rybovich. We have one now.

Ok, I wasn't sure of the time line.

If so, why did you not use those to run the engine?

QED

Got it.


Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

"LaBomba182" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

After having my lift pump fail half way across the Gulf Stream, I think
I'll stick to what Yanmar and the mechanic in FL suggested even
beyond the warranty.

Did your sails fail too? :-)

No, we sailed to the point where we needed a tow to get into Lake Worth
Inlet.
Didn't seem prudent to try and sail through the inlet.

Makes sense.


And didn't you say you had electric priming pumps?

No. Not until after getting repairs at Rybovich. We have one now.

Ok, I wasn't sure of the time line.

If so, why did you not use those to run the engine?

QED

Got it.


Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

It seems you can't take a joke.
Not to mention your poor reading in context skills.

As to useful information put forth, same to you. :-)

Good luck with your "polishing" system.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

It seems you can't take a joke.
Not to mention your poor reading in context skills.

As to useful information put forth, same to you. :-)

Good luck with your "polishing" system.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Correct. But that does that make those statements "invalid"?

Yes.

Expound please.
Capt. Bill