"krj" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example
a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to
any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition.
Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat
building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps
or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people
in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards.
About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no
standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's
six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in
this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no
standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly
attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few
examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any
accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is
the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof
that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine
anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually
paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat
building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of
affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?


Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a
cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use.
Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking
around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap,
shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in
your things means no pride in yourself. Sad!

Wilbur Hubbard
Wilber,
I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap
posing as a human being.


You've seen my Swan 68? Where did you see her?

Wilbur Hubbard

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:47:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure
it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no
accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you
are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't
have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you
but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's
really very simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at
the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low
standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

I believe the Wauquiez I mentioned earlier, which had a serious build
defect, touts the Lloyds Standards imprimatur in one fashion or
another. While not disagreeing about standards being essential in
just about any endeavor, there are standards and there are standards.
For Powersailors (very cool term) the Mac sets the standard.
Would you think less of the Coronado if it didn't have a Lloyds
Standard stamp of approval?
Here's a link giving a cursory look at Lloyds Standards and others.
http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=2773
Very costly initially and must be renewed yearly.
Other browsing indicates the term Lloyds Standards is used - or
misused - dishonestly, as a true Lloyds Standard boat must meet many
requirements. Using the term Lloyds Standards is often just sizzle.
In your heart you know that.
One of my concerns with the Mac is the standards used in its materials
and construction. Since it will mostly be used parked near your
Coronado, it must have a solid enough deck to install thru-deck A/C
and room in the cockpit or transom for the genset.
But it won't go to blue water so the Lloyds Standards are not an
issue. Gunkholing, slow cruising and leisurely sailing are the Macs
suite of capabilities in my eyes, and owners seem pretty happy doing
those things with them., Lloyds or no Lloyds.

--Vic

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no accepted
measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you are trading
safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't have any
reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you but if you
have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's really very
simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at
the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low
standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

Wilbur Hubbard

Your definition of Quality is not explicit and you do not have any means of
measuring it.
Your understanding is vague and speculative.
Therefore I can only conclude that you do not know what is quality. Nor
will you be able to understand the meaning of building standards let alone
the Mil Specs, history dockets and inspection and test plan.
If you were to build a sailboat how much budget will you allocate for
standards, quality programs and control.

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"krj" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example
a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to
any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition.
Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat
building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps
or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people
in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards.
About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no
standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's
six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in
this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no
standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly
attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few
examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any
accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is
the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof
that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine
anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually
paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat
building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of
affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?


Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a
cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use.
Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking
around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap,
shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in
your things means no pride in yourself. Sad!

Wilbur Hubbard
Wilber,
I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap
posing as a human being.


You've seen my Swan 68? Where did you see her?

Wilbur Hubbard
Swan 68? You really are delusional. It's a musturd yellow Coronado that
was in Buttonwood or Black Water Sound a couple of years ago

wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure
it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no
accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but
you are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you
don't have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable
to you but if you have high standards it will to entirely
unacceptable. It's really very simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post
at the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have
low standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

Wilbur Hubbard

Your definition of Quality is not explicit and you do not have any
means of measuring it.
Your understanding is vague and speculative.
Therefore I can only conclude that you do not know what is quality.
Nor will you be able to understand the meaning of building standards
let alone the Mil Specs, history dockets and inspection and test plan.
If you were to build a sailboat how much budget will you allocate for
standards, quality programs and control.


I fail to see your logic. I don't have to know the ins and outs of
quality myself as I don't build boats myself. All I have to know is
there exists certain boat building quality standards among which are
Lloyds and ABS. These organizations certify boat building according to
their established tried-and-true building methods and inspect for
compliance as the boat is being built.

We're talking yachts here not military ships so military specs. and
irrelevant.

As for budget requirements to build a boat to Lloyds specifications I
believe the article posted above mentioned it might be up to 10% more
for the inspection process alone. Of course, quality materials and
proper scantlings necessarily add more to the cost than some cheap,
fly-by-night outfit like MacGregor who just builds to the "sell a boat
cheaper than anybody else can" standards.

Wilbur Hubbard

"krj" wrote in message
.. .
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"krj" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For,
example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built
compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat
that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very
questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be
unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned
with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should
ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people
these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the
people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no
standards. About 10% of the people in this country are
illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are
Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other.
About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of
television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people
in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral
standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less
society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me,
lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to
any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat
is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing
proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you
imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat
construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built
to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think
such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?


Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's
a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term
use. Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like
walking around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm
a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being."
No pride in your things means no pride in yourself. Sad!

Wilbur Hubbard
Wilber,
I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap
posing as a human being.


You've seen my Swan 68? Where did you see her?

Wilbur Hubbard
Swan 68? You really are delusional. It's a musturd yellow Coronado
that was in Buttonwood or Black Water Sound a couple of years ago

Capt. Neal sails a yellow Coronado 27 by the name of "Cuts the Mustard"
and that boat can be seen just about any place on the face of the planet
that communicates with blue water, but what's that got to do with me,
Wilbur Hubbard?

Wilbur Hubbard

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 18:26:47 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:




Thanks. That's a good link. It proves my point. It says:
"For that same reason, American builders have been slow to encourage the
use of classifications because buyers aren't familiar with them and,
almost to a man, they all claim to build better boats than required by
the societies. Whether that is true or not is just as debatable as
whether a buyer would want a boat built to society standards. One
well-known builder noted that it is impossible to build the high-speed
motoryachts, now so popular, to classification because of the sacrifices
necessary to keep the weight to a minimum. The societies, on the other
hand, point out that they have been classing high-speed patrol craft and
other speed-oriented vessels for many years, and suggest that the
builder is probably cutting many corners in search of an extra knot or
two."

Cutting many corners in search for an extra knot or two? Sound familiar?
Sounds like it describes a MacGregor 26.

Maybe, but
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._61555439/pg_3
"Even though ABS's customer base is primarily big shipping, its rules
on scantlings, the dimensions of a boat's structural members, are
sometimes referenced by manufacturers of recreational vessels. Private
mega-yachts are usually built to ABS rules, which are all but unheard
of for the average pleasure boat."

Neither the Mac or Coronado can be classified as a mega-yacht.
Here's a link pointing to the ABS standards guidebooks.
http://www.eagle.org/rules/intro.html
If you'll tell me which book I need to verify standards for a boat
such as a Mac 26 or a Coronado 27 I'll buy it and take it down to the
boat builder to see if he is up to snuff.
Without your help, I'll have to rely on the experience of people who
actually own the boat.

--Vic

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
..
snipped.
As for budget requirements to build a boat to Lloyds specifications I
believe the article posted above mentioned it might be up to 10% more for
the inspection process alone. Of course, quality materials and proper
scantlings necessarily add more to the cost than some cheap, fly-by-night
outfit

You are not quite correct here. Anybody can build to Lloyds
specifications-they are available for anyone who wishes to follow them and
certainly they will involve some extra cost if you compare the result with
run-of-the-mill yacht builders specifications.
But this does not involve getting Lloyds to inspect the boat either during
or after building. If a builder says he is building to Lloyds specifications
you have to take his word for it.
If you want a gold plated assurance that the boat complies then you must
specify not only that she is built to Lloyds requirements but also under
under Lloyds survey, inspection and test. That is what is going to cost
serious money as the material suppliers will have to have this requirement
passed down to them to ensure the materials comply. Then the Lloyds surveyor
(N.B. not 'inspector'!) will have to visit the yard at certain defined
stages of construction and sign her off so that work can proceed. Then after
sea trials you will get final approval .
Your chances of getting this done for any mass produced yacht are not good.

Edgar wrote:
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
..
snipped.
As for budget requirements to build a boat to Lloyds
specifications I
believe the article posted above mentioned it might be up to 10%
more for the inspection process alone. Of course, quality materials
and proper scantlings necessarily add more to the cost than some
cheap, fly-by-night outfit

You are not quite correct here. Anybody can build to Lloyds
specifications-they are available for anyone who wishes to follow
them and certainly they will involve some extra cost if you compare
the result with run-of-the-mill yacht builders specifications.
But this does not involve getting Lloyds to inspect the boat either
during or after building. If a builder says he is building to Lloyds
specifications you have to take his word for it.
If you want a gold plated assurance that the boat complies then you
must specify not only that she is built to Lloyds requirements but
also under under Lloyds survey, inspection and test. That is what
is going to cost serious money as the material suppliers will have to
have this requirement passed down to them to ensure the materials
comply. Then the Lloyds surveyor (N.B. not 'inspector'!) will have to
visit the yard at certain defined stages of construction and sign her
off so that work can proceed. Then after sea trials you will get
final approval .
Your chances of getting this done for any mass produced yacht are not
good.

I seem to recall that one of Edward Heath's yachts (Morning Cloud 3
perhaps?) was built to Lloyds 100+A1 standards. She broke up in a storm in
the English Channel whilst on delivery from Kent to The Solent.

Standards? Don't make me laugh!


DNP

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
..
snipped.
As for budget requirements to build a boat to Lloyds specifications
I
believe the article posted above mentioned it might be up to 10% more
for the inspection process alone. Of course, quality materials and
proper scantlings necessarily add more to the cost than some cheap,
fly-by-night outfit

You are not quite correct here. Anybody can build to Lloyds
specifications-they are available for anyone who wishes to follow them
and certainly they will involve some extra cost if you compare the
result with run-of-the-mill yacht builders specifications.
But this does not involve getting Lloyds to inspect the boat either
during or after building. If a builder says he is building to Lloyds
specifications you have to take his word for it.

An individual may build a vessel to Lloyd's standards but it will not be
Lloyd's certified unless it's inpected by Lloyds in the processess of
it's being built. Personally, I would not take the word of a builder. I
would have to see the certificate of compliance or whatever it's called
nowadays before I would trust it is built to Lloyd's standards.

If you want a gold plated assurance that the boat complies then you
must specify not only that she is built to Lloyds requirements but
also under under Lloyds survey, inspection and test.

Yes, that's the value of complying with Lloyds specs - getting the
certificate. Going full zoot. . .

That is what is going to cost serious money as the material suppliers
will have to have this requirement passed down to them to ensure the
materials comply. Then the Lloyds surveyor (N.B. not 'inspector'!)
will have to visit the yard at certain defined stages of construction
and sign her off so that work can proceed. Then after sea trials you
will get final approval .
Your chances of getting this done for any mass produced yacht are not
good.

It's good if the builder is willing to pay for it and the buyer is
willing to pay for the quality. Probably even save the extra costs over
a ten year period on reduced insurance premiums.

Wilbur Hubbard