There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are
more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You
should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since
most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen
of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive
hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people
in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These
are but a few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned
with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for
a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's
incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more
concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should
ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most
of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the
other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of
television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this
country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a
few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard
of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that
size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no
personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and
proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's
built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think
such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?

First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it.

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are
more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You
should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most
of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the
other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of
television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this
country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but
a few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard
of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that
size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no
personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and
proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's
built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think
such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?

wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure
it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no
accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you
are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't
have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you
but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's
really very simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at
the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low
standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

Wilbur Hubbard

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:47:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure
it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no
accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you
are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't
have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you
but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's
really very simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at
the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low
standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

I believe the Wauquiez I mentioned earlier, which had a serious build
defect, touts the Lloyds Standards imprimatur in one fashion or
another. While not disagreeing about standards being essential in
just about any endeavor, there are standards and there are standards.
For Powersailors (very cool term) the Mac sets the standard.
Would you think less of the Coronado if it didn't have a Lloyds
Standard stamp of approval?
Here's a link giving a cursory look at Lloyds Standards and others.
http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=2773
Very costly initially and must be renewed yearly.
Other browsing indicates the term Lloyds Standards is used - or
misused - dishonestly, as a true Lloyds Standard boat must meet many
requirements. Using the term Lloyds Standards is often just sizzle.
In your heart you know that.
One of my concerns with the Mac is the standards used in its materials
and construction. Since it will mostly be used parked near your
Coronado, it must have a solid enough deck to install thru-deck A/C
and room in the cockpit or transom for the genset.
But it won't go to blue water so the Lloyds Standards are not an
issue. Gunkholing, slow cruising and leisurely sailing are the Macs
suite of capabilities in my eyes, and owners seem pretty happy doing
those things with them., Lloyds or no Lloyds.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:47:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure
it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no
accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you
are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't
have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you
but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's
really very simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post
at
the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low
standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

I believe the Wauquiez I mentioned earlier, which had a serious build
defect, touts the Lloyds Standards imprimatur in one fashion or
another. While not disagreeing about standards being essential in
just about any endeavor, there are standards and there are standards.
For Powersailors (very cool term) the Mac sets the standard.
Would you think less of the Coronado if it didn't have a Lloyds
Standard stamp of approval?
Here's a link giving a cursory look at Lloyds Standards and others.
http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=2773
Very costly initially and must be renewed yearly.
Other browsing indicates the term Lloyds Standards is used - or
misused - dishonestly, as a true Lloyds Standard boat must meet many
requirements. Using the term Lloyds Standards is often just sizzle.
In your heart you know that.
One of my concerns with the Mac is the standards used in its materials
and construction. Since it will mostly be used parked near your
Coronado, it must have a solid enough deck to install thru-deck A/C
and room in the cockpit or transom for the genset.
But it won't go to blue water so the Lloyds Standards are not an
issue. Gunkholing, slow cruising and leisurely sailing are the Macs
suite of capabilities in my eyes, and owners seem pretty happy doing
those things with them., Lloyds or no Lloyds.

--Vic


Thanks. That's a good link. It proves my point. It says:
"For that same reason, American builders have been slow to encourage the
use of classifications because buyers aren't familiar with them and,
almost to a man, they all claim to build better boats than required by
the societies. Whether that is true or not is just as debatable as
whether a buyer would want a boat built to society standards. One
well-known builder noted that it is impossible to build the high-speed
motoryachts, now so popular, to classification because of the sacrifices
necessary to keep the weight to a minimum. The societies, on the other
hand, point out that they have been classing high-speed patrol craft and
other speed-oriented vessels for many years, and suggest that the
builder is probably cutting many corners in search of an extra knot or
two."

Cutting many corners in search for an extra knot or two? Sound familiar?
Sounds like it describes a MacGregor 26.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no accepted
measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you are trading
safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't have any
reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you but if you
have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's really very
simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at
the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low
standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

Wilbur Hubbard

Your definition of Quality is not explicit and you do not have any means of
measuring it.
Your understanding is vague and speculative.
Therefore I can only conclude that you do not know what is quality. Nor
will you be able to understand the meaning of building standards let alone
the Mil Specs, history dockets and inspection and test plan.
If you were to build a sailboat how much budget will you allocate for
standards, quality programs and control.

wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure
it.

One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working.
That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and
true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no
accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but
you are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you
don't have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable
to you but if you have high standards it will to entirely
unacceptable. It's really very simple.

Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post
at the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have
low standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26...

Wilbur Hubbard

Your definition of Quality is not explicit and you do not have any
means of measuring it.
Your understanding is vague and speculative.
Therefore I can only conclude that you do not know what is quality.
Nor will you be able to understand the meaning of building standards
let alone the Mil Specs, history dockets and inspection and test plan.
If you were to build a sailboat how much budget will you allocate for
standards, quality programs and control.


I fail to see your logic. I don't have to know the ins and outs of
quality myself as I don't build boats myself. All I have to know is
there exists certain boat building quality standards among which are
Lloyds and ABS. These organizations certify boat building according to
their established tried-and-true building methods and inspect for
compliance as the boat is being built.

We're talking yachts here not military ships so military specs. and
irrelevant.

As for budget requirements to build a boat to Lloyds specifications I
believe the article posted above mentioned it might be up to 10% more
for the inspection process alone. Of course, quality materials and
proper scantlings necessarily add more to the cost than some cheap,
fly-by-night outfit like MacGregor who just builds to the "sell a boat
cheaper than anybody else can" standards.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to
any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition.
Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building
standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the
head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in
this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10%
of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But
since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and
half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country
watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less
than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e.,
no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less
society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody
concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying
good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building
standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has
eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?


Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a
cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use.
Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking around
with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap, shoddy,
**** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in your things
means no pride in yourself. Sad!

Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to
any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition.
Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building
standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the
head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in
this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10%
of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But
since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and
half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country
watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less
than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e.,
no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less
society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody
concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying
good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building
standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has
eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?


Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a
cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use.
Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking around
with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap, shoddy,
**** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in your things
means no pride in yourself. Sad!

Wilbur Hubbard
Wilber,
I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap
posing as a human being.