I'm glad that you decided to take my advice. If you continue, you
might turn into a respectable netizen, and earn the respect of your
fellow group members.

As for the issue at hand:
Solar panels are better than wind for day by day power. A good wind
system costs about $1500, and that buys a lot of panels. Output can
be greatly improved by adjusting the panels to point toward the sun,
and by avoiding shading, so anything that can facilitate that will be
worth the effort. My three panels are fixed on the hardtop, and often
shaded by the boom, so all I can do is move the boom from side to
side. Were I to add panels, they would go on the davits where I could
tilt them as a appropriate.

The reason to have wind generation in addition to solar is that on
those days when there is little Sun, there is often a breeze. Its
frustrating to be hanging out below on a rainy day, using more power
with the TV and computer going, but generating nothing. The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


* NE Sailboat wrote, On 3/22/2007 10:21 AM:
Larry ,, I did some research on the net about the wind generators. Most
posting, stories I read were like the following which is reposted without
permission or attribute ... as in I DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE THIS .. TAKE THAT
JEFF.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why I would not put another wind generator on a boat:

Specifically, the Southwest Power Air Power Wind Turbine, AIR-X or
AIR-404/3. Noise: Everyone complains about the noise, at anchorages, crew
complains underway, they make a moaning noise that is very disturbing
especially if you are trying to sleep in a cabin under the generator. Power
Generation: They produce amazingly little power. They require at least
15 -25 knots of apparent wind to produce any meaningful power. They don't
produce power at anchorages because most anchorages by their nature are in
low-wind areas, they don't produce power going downwind because the apparent
wind is often low. They don't produce power at the dock because you will [?]
of the noise. They only produce power going up wind in a pretty good wind.
Go slow: The wind generator and mast provide a pretty good wind profile and
hence wind resistance.

Southwest Power's air turbines are not well built for the salt water marine
environment and require significant maintenance. The Aluminum components
like the generator body and mast tubes are powder-coated aluminum. After a
few years the coating comes off in big potato-chip-like flakes. I sent mine
back once and have had to paint it twice in five years. I put the mast tubes
in heat-shrunk tubes which has worked well and they stay white. The
generator body has to be painted about every year. The Stainless Steel (SS)
hardware that Southwest uses is 304 SS not nearly as good as 316 SS which
means that it is prone to rust and leave streaks on the deck and topside. I
have removed these and bathed the hardware in mild solution of Oxalic acid
which removes the rust stains and the rust from the hardware; this must be
done two or three times per year.

In summary don't put a wind generator on your boat, and not a Southwest Air
Power turbine. Based on my experience the more solar cells the better.


[It seems as if they have there drawback for sure. The noise was the
biggest complaint. The other item I kept reading about them was that they
needed lots of wind to make power. When in an anchorage, you don't want
lots of wind .. that is why it is an anchorage. ]
================================================== ===============================


This is from an ad I saw on the net .. on solar ... ad, Jeff. No author as
far as I can tell.. Got it Jeff.

Solar panels provide a silent dependable way to supply electricity anywhere,
particularly in places where utility power is not available. Whether its a
mountaintop cabin, a cruising sailboat, a roving RV, or the family home,
there is a solar electric system to meet your needs.

Solar power allows you to live on beautiful rural land without foregoing all
the conveniences of the city, and without expensive utility line extensions
or noisy generators. Thousands of photovoltaic powered homes exist
throughout the country.

Sailboat cruising time can be extended with a few solar modules, since
precious fuel does not need to be used for charging batteries to power the
bilgepump, communications equipment, lights, or refrigerator. Dockside,
solar panels keeps the batteries alive and the bilge pump running without
power hookups.

Recreational vehicles can park anywhere with full use of lights and
appliances without being disturbed by the sound or smell of a generator.
Even if your RV spends a few weeks between trips in a storage lot, solar
panels will keep the battery charged and ready to go when you are ready to
go.

How do they work? To be brief, energy from the sun's light strikes the
solar panels crystals knocking some electrons loose and creating
electricity. Each solar cell in a panel creates a potential of about .45
volts. To create a voltage sufficient to charge a 12 volt battery, 34 to
36 cells are connected in series to produce 15 to 17 volts. The current a
panel is capable of producing is porportional to the area of each cell.
Larger cells produce more electricity: 6" cells = 7.1 amps, 5" cells = 5
amps, 4" cells = 3.1 amps.

How much output can I expect from a solar panel? We use a basic design
rule that a solar panel will contributer about 30% to 35% of its wattage in
amphours each day if the panel is directed toward the sun. This means that
an 80 watt solar panel can be expected to produce approximately 24 to 28
amphours per day when aimed at the sun.

What type panel is best? There are three main types of solar panels:
Monocrystalline (Siemens), Polycrystalline (Kyocera, Solarex, PowerValue),
and Thin Film or amorphous (Uni-Solar). Monocrystalline panels have
uniform dark gray cells and have the highest output per cell area and tend
to be the most expensive. Polycrystalline cells look somewhat like
shattered glass and tend to be less expensive and only slightly less
efficient per cell area. These cells are usually square and result in a
slightly smaller solar panel than solar panels constructed using the more
efficient monocrystalline which tend to be rounder. Monocrystalline and
polycrysalline solar panels are rigid and have a glass cover. Thin Film
type panels are made by depositing the active silicon on either a stainles
plate or a flexible backing. Thin film type panels are about half as
efficient per cell area but are consided unbreakable and shadow protected.

Do solar panels require regulation? As a general rule, very small solar
panels that put out 5 watts or less can get by without a regulator but a
regulator should be used on all solar panels. The self-regulating panels
produce less voltage and theoretically will not overcharge your batteries.
We would rather use higher voltage solar panels and use a regulator which is
quite inexpensive to buy and it can save your batteries.


Here is something on solar.. I think the author is listed .. also from the
net.

From James Forsyth on SailNet liveaboard-list: In reasonably sunny climates,
you can figure solar panels will produce AH roughly equal to 1/3 their rated
watts without messing with them. E.g. a 45 watt panel should be expected to
produce about 15 AH per day. You can increase that to about half if you fuss
with them to keep them properly oriented, so you might get 22 or 23 AH from
a 45 watt panel - but that's under ideal conditions. That's a useful amount
of electricity, but not enough to run a boat, even with two or three panels.

Wind generators vary widely in both output and noise. The small ones,
such as Ampair 100's and the Fourwinds three, are virtually silent, but
their output is pretty small too. We looked at a lot of different models,
read a lot of reviews, and finally settled on a Fourwinds Two. The output
still varies with windspeed, but it comes pretty close to the advertised
values. It's quiet, but not silent. Most of the time underway the wind
generator is quieter than the usual wind and water noise. In winds of under
20 knots, we actually have to look at it to be sure it's running. You can
hear it at anchor, but we don't find it obnoxious. My suggestion is to find
people in your area who have different brands, then go stand by their boats,
or dinghy next to them, and listen. Also, put your hand on their hull or toe
rail to check for vibration. We're quite satisfied with ours. If you're
considering a Marine Aire, talk to people on boats near one ...

With the wind generator and one solar panel we can supply most to all
of our needs if it's sunny, and if the relative wind stays at 10 knots or
more, and we're careful. We have a house bank of about 400 AH, and a 100 amp
Powerline alternator with a Balmar 612 regulator run from our main engine.
We keep our boat on a mooring in the Chesapeake, and find we never have to
run the engine solely to charge the batteries.

We also have a conversion kit to use the generator portion of the Four
Winds as a water-powered generator when we're offshore. The wind generator
doesn't work all that well going downwind, when relative wind is light. Used
as a water-powered generator, it provides massive amounts of power. I
believe the Ampair has a similar set up, and it too should provide lots of
power offshore.



So.. what to do... it seems as if a combo is the answer. But that is
expensive for a coastal cruiser.

I have decided that the wind unit is out. Too much for too little. And my
boat is too small.

The solar panel will only work between 10am and 3pm. In bright sunlight.
The remainder of the time, it takes up space. does
nothing.

Then,, it hit me. A solar panel that can be put up like a sail .. use it
when the conditions are right. A moveable, temporay solar panel. Not
fixed. One I can store, just like I would an anchor.

If I find one in the 45-55 watt range .. and I get 1/3 of the watts in amp
hours per day.. would be something like 15 amp hours per day.

Right?

Now ,, looking at Casey's book .. that is Don Casey for Jeff.

Casey give a daily amp-hour consumption of about 15 amp hours for cabin
lights [ the at anchor ligts in the cabin, etc ] and the anchor light
together.

That isn't bad.

So,, my plan or thought is to get a solar panel but not attach it. Move it
around from place to place so it gets the sun. And,, only use it when it is
worthwhile. When the sun is shining.

Now the question .. where to store it? What else to use it for? The size
of the panel? About 25" by 25" for a 50 watt Kyocera panel.

That is a little over 2' x 2'.

If I sew a piece of Sunbrella up to make a cover, and have the panel in some
type of something that will allow me to take it out and set it up to get the
sunlight ..

Doesn't this make some sense?

What do you think and do you have any ideas?

"NE Sailboat" wrote in news:OhwMh.4762$zN.1202
@trndny03:

Doesn't this make some sense?

What do you think and do you have any ideas?



The solar cell is like a brittle piece of thin glass. If it cracks, even
a tiny one, it's toast. So, they mount them in heavy frames and lose
some power with the protective glass or lexan covers, that absorb some of
the solar energy as it passes through.

Being fragile and the frames quite heavy, I doubt they'd take being
hauled up the mast over and over for very long and they are WAY too
expensive to frequently replace. I'm sure it's being done, though.....

I don't understand why we cannot produce a quite, SLOW TURNING, boat wind
genny. I agree these whirly-bird generators spin way too fast,
generating vibration and noise that radiate from the hull. Why they are
solidly mounted, with no sound deadening is probably about profit.

I see a great UNUSED solution, at the HOME anchorage:
http://www.otherpower.com/20page1.html
You put one of these on top of a piling that you tie the boat to. The
boat would be powered FROM THE PILIING, giving you an almost limitless
power supply at your anchorage, without all those naughty dock fees. Up
above where you tie the boat, like USCG does to the lighted day markers,
a platform with the large battery box and inverter provides the boat with
AC power and direct DC power for use and charging. Of course, this only
works at HOME. But, let's face it, the damned boats spend 90% of their
time at home, anyways. No noise in the boat, at all! These machines
turn very slowly their 3 blades and produce immense power at the wind in
any anchorage....up 30-40 feet off the water.

Why aren't the entrepreneurs renting you wind-powered anchorage pilings
in exotic places? One wind machine could supply many boats, anyplace.



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^

Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^

On Mar 22, 3:22 pm, Larry wrote:
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.

"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^


umm what about a thin film sola;r Errr top sail or something like
that?
2MT (trying out his vocab)

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for mounting on
Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10 amps of charging
current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should be very very quiet
(virtually silent, actually). The only part of it that is really unique to
my own design is the wind turbine itself, which is as streamlined as I can
make it to reduce drag loss, while maintaining optimum wind cupping. Don't
know if or when it will be finished, but I'll post progress here if and when
it occurs.

"Two meter troll" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 22, 3:22 pm, Larry wrote:
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.

"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^


umm what about a thin film sola;r Errr top sail or something like
that?
2MT (trying out his vocab)


Essie's solar panels are US32's, flexible panels mounted directly to the
coachroof. You can walk on them and they can't break. Amorphous film, they
don't stop putting out current just because some cells are in shadow. Two of
these give me, theoretically, 64 watts at optimum sun exposure. In reality
much less, but they're better than nothing, and much better than fixing
large glass panels, IMO.

KLC ,, when I was goofing, looking on the net for wind power for sailboats
...

I found some site that had a web link that showed how to make your own wind
generator for a sailboat.

It only cost about $300 dollars as I recall for the parts etc.

The big negative for me is the size of the blades. According to most of
what I read and looked at, the blades must be fairly large to produce much
of anything in power. One unit I looked at .. the blade was 46" long. That
is almost four feet.

The way I figure it, the bigger the boat, the less of a problem the wind
generator. On a 100' yacht, I doubt the crew even knows the thing is up
there. On a 32' boat, big difference.

================================
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for mounting
on Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10 amps of
charging current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should be very
very quiet (virtually silent, actually). The only part of it that is
really unique to my own design is the wind turbine itself, which is as
streamlined as I can make it to reduce drag loss, while maintaining
optimum wind cupping. Don't know if or when it will be finished, but I'll
post progress here if and when it occurs.

Yah, the advantage of VAWT's is that the rotate on a vertical axis and don't
necessarily use blades as such. They need to be kinda tall, but not wide.

"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:k2FMh.12829$FS5.12620@trndny09...
KLC ,, when I was goofing, looking on the net for wind power for sailboats
..

I found some site that had a web link that showed how to make your own
wind generator for a sailboat.

It only cost about $300 dollars as I recall for the parts etc.

The big negative for me is the size of the blades. According to most of
what I read and looked at, the blades must be fairly large to produce much
of anything in power. One unit I looked at .. the blade was 46" long.
That is almost four feet.

The way I figure it, the bigger the boat, the less of a problem the wind
generator. On a 100' yacht, I doubt the crew even knows the thing is up
there. On a 32' boat, big difference.

================================
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for mounting
on Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10 amps of
charging current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should be very
very quiet (virtually silent, actually). The only part of it that is
really unique to my own design is the wind turbine itself, which is as
streamlined as I can make it to reduce drag loss, while maintaining
optimum wind cupping. Don't know if or when it will be finished, but I'll
post progress here if and when it occurs.

"KLC Lewis" wrote in
:

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for
mounting on Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10
amps of charging current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should
be very very quiet (virtually silent, actually). The only part of it
that is really unique to my own design is the wind turbine itself,
which is as streamlined as I can make it to reduce drag loss, while
maintaining optimum wind cupping. Don't know if or when it will be
finished, but I'll post progress here if and when it occurs.



The incredibly efficient and simple design of the permanent magnet,
multiphase alternators used by the mountain men on otherpower.com is well
suited to your purpose. A vertical axis turbine directly pulling the
magnets across those sealed coils just above the deck would work
fantastic, if you can keep the turbine from broaching over.

Here's a free patent you might be interested in looking at:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4274011.pdf

Of course, new boat technologies, like S/V "Revelation II" look
promising. This boat sails fastest STRAIGHT INTO THE WIND, something
sailors have longed for for centuries. It's direct drive, but I'd like
to see a more practical use of a large alternator driving high voltage
nanotechnology lithium-ion storage batteries like Toshiba has invented.
The power generated by this slow-turning beast is many kilowatts in even
small winds, I'd bet, not those little turbines boaters curse at. A
blade this large driving a simple PM multiphase alternator the mountain
men on otherpower.com, rectified and stored in Li-Ion quick charging
batteries would give you an immense living power both at anchor or at
sea, with the boat, instead of this direct drive, being powered by
traction motors, like drive electric cars/trains/buses/trucks. It would
be much more versatile than Revelation II....in any point of "sail".
Having power STORAGE in the batteries would also make a docking engine
unnecessary. The power storage would also drive her fore and aft
thrusters for parking...(c;....even if the wind were completely calm.

When you come alongside your homeport dock space, you plug the windmill
into the pedestal, forcing the local power company, under Federal Law, to
buy power FROM the boat, which should offset the dock fees to the point
of a small profit in windy months....(c; Not a bad side effect to an
electric powered boat, either.

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"KLC Lewis" wrote in
:

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for
mounting on Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10
amps of charging current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should
be very very quiet (virtually silent, actually). The only part of it
that is really unique to my own design is the wind turbine itself,
which is as streamlined as I can make it to reduce drag loss, while
maintaining optimum wind cupping. Don't know if or when it will be
finished, but I'll post progress here if and when it occurs.



The incredibly efficient and simple design of the permanent magnet,
multiphase alternators used by the mountain men on otherpower.com is well
suited to your purpose. A vertical axis turbine directly pulling the
magnets across those sealed coils just above the deck would work
fantastic, if you can keep the turbine from broaching over.

Yah, axial flux alternators are the only way to go. I'll use a 3 phase axial
flux, currently weighing the benefits of using Halbach Array magnets
(imitation monopoles) although they tend to be rather expensive. This, of
course, is offset by making iron backing plates redundant, so you eliminate
the expense and weight of them.