Roger ,, go to the Pearson Vanguard Group on Yahoo Groups.

There is a sailor/Captain over there, named David Heilman, who uses solar.
He has two high output solar panels.
And he really burns up the juice. He has stereo, tv, vcr, you name it and
with his solar setup.. power to burn.

For the good solar panels, it is costly. The following is from an email
David sent me back in the fall.



"We had 1 85watt panel on "On Location" I got it on clearance from
Alternative engery sources on the web. The panel cost $695 which was a $150
savings. I am going to put two 130 watt panels on our Easterly 38 and those
panels are coming from Mr Solar and will cost $900 each and the two
controllers will bring the total cost to about $2,000. In my humble opinion
good solar panels and controllers will run around $1,000 ea, keeping in mind
we are on a ball, are not bashfull about running electronics, only use the
engine to get out and back and enjoy time on the boat even if we do not
sail. Not quite liveaboards yet but close."

Here is another email from Captain Heilman.

"Not sure how much help I can be but will try. I did a lot of research 3
years ago when we went onto the ball. Got real confused with all the
formulas also. What I did find was this, the only panels that are worth a
damm are the rigid expensive ones, the thin flexablie ones that are easy to
mount are not worth the trouble, you need at least 40 watts for each 12 volt
deep cycle battery. On the Vanguard we had two house batteries so I bought
one 85watt panel. On the Easterly I have installed four house batteries and
will have two 130 watt panels. A good panel, that means expensive, will
generate power on a slightly overcast day, you must have a charge controller
both to prevent overcharging of the batteries and to stop the panel from
drawing power back out of the batteries at night. Do not cheap out here
either. Mount the panels as high as practical and watch for things that will
cast a shadow on them. Like a flag from the backstay. This may seem like a
minor thing but keep them clean!

We used this formula for three years on our mooring, and even if we spent
several days on the boat without using the iron genny never ran out of
power.

Hope this helps.

Dave"

================================================== =========================================

If you are a reader of DIY magazine, Captain Heilman's Vanguard was featured
in one issue as David and his wife restored her. He has since sold her and
moved to a bigger boat.

================================================== =========================================




"Roger Long" wrote in message news:
I knew that there is no way solar would keep up with my cruising loads.
Cruising in Maine, where the wind usually doesn't come up unitl noon,
usually involves enough motoring to keep the batteries charged. It's the
periods when we're not cruising and just daysailing that I'm concerned
about.

I won't be running the anchor light on the mooring and I just bought one
of the new low draw LED units anyway. My old one was a combination
bow/mast light with two bulbs and was a real hog but it was the only one I
could get when I found that the original was toast the day before the mast
was to go up. The only daysailing draw will be the GPS, radio which I
seldom transmit on (for which I have been already soundly berated on this
group), instruments, and a bit of fresh water pumping.

I also don't expect to keep up entirely with the loads. It's more a
matter of balancing the cost of a modest solar rig against the extension
of battery life and capacity. Maybe just buying new batteries every 2 -
3 years makes more sense. I get my AGM's cheap enough from a non-marine
source that a set every year would just be a blip in the cost of boat
ownership.

Wind is the way to go but location and foundation support are an issue on
my boat.

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense for
this application.

--
Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense
for this application.



All the panels are pretty much the same...inefficient, take lots of deck
space to produce any power making them always in the way, and very hard to
place so they get unobstructed sunshine as the boat swings around, either
underway or on the hook. It might keep an unloaded battery bank topped up,
but is a poor choice for powering even the small loads as it is so
intermittent....my point.

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
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Larry,, you sound like a "wind power" guy.

The problem with wind power is size, noise, vibration.

I'm certainly no expert; but doesn't it take a large blade to produce any
amount of power? And that large blade is spinning
and that means noise, and vibration.

On a small sailboat ??

There is one product I saw somewhere .. a portable wind power unit. It gets
hung in the triangle of the foredeck.

It is attached to the forestay, mast, etc. I think it swings into the wind.
It isn't very large though and that means less power; right?

Post some into on wind power if you have a moment.. I am interested.

Thanks,

=========
"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote in
:

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense
for this application.



All the panels are pretty much the same...inefficient, take lots of deck
space to produce any power making them always in the way, and very hard to
place so they get unobstructed sunshine as the boat swings around, either
underway or on the hook. It might keep an unloaded battery bank topped
up,
but is a poor choice for powering even the small loads as it is so
intermittent....my point.

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
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"NE Sailboat" wrote in
news:H_yLh.7193$zx.128@trndny05:

Larry,, you sound like a "wind power" guy.

The problem with wind power is size, noise, vibration.

I'm certainly no expert; but doesn't it take a large blade to produce
any amount of power? And that large blade is spinning
and that means noise, and vibration.



Lots of boats have wind power like the AirX unit I pointed you to the
webpage of. They usually sit aft on a stick, but very few try to
vibration isolate the stick from the hull, which I think can be easily
done both at the top and the bottom.

These marine genny's, unlike their shoreside brothers, have quite small
blades, turn quite fast as wind power goes, and don't generate much noise
at all....unless you're in a boat whos wind genny has bad bearings, of
course.

They're nicely balanced to minimize vibration and product returns by
irate boaters!

Of course, some day when this sailing "tradition" means less, we'll
probably be making a POWER boat out of some super genny like these guys
build in their mountainside shops:
http://www.otherpower.com/
I'd like to see one of these high-powered, 3-phase, PM rotored beasts
mounted to the aft handrail of a sailboat, trailing a ball-joint-mounted
shaft behind a cruising boat offshore with a properly-pitched screw
driving it, not some sailboat prop being pulled along the wrong way like
our shaft alternator on Lionheart.

These alternators are VERY slow RPM on a large wooden blade. No
expensive gearing, no exotic electronics/field coils/etc. I'd want the
marine dragging unit to have a variable space between the coils making
the load and the magnets turning against them so YOU could vary the shaft
loading for maximum efficiency.

What would you do with a kilowatt of constant electricity, day or night,
dragging its prop through the water? HOT SHOWERS FOR EVERYONE!

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
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The fellow who builds the Cape Horn wind vanes has a great DVD of his
circumnavigation. He had a stern pulpit mounted alternator with a prop
trailing on a line. It appears to have done a good job of supplying his
electrical needs since the boat didn't have an engine. This was in the
early 80's so it was probably just an automotive alternator.

A shark ate the trailing turbine and, after doing without power for a while,
he fabricated a new one from stuff he found on board. The improvised rotor
is beautiful and a testimony to what human ingeniuity can do with minimal
materials and tools.

--
Roger Long

Roger ,, the water generator are sold on the net. I talked to a fellow
sailor about one. He came across the Atlantic on a very large
sailing yacht and the water generator produced lots of power. He said they
would watch a movie every night while off watch.

He did tell me that the pull on a small boat would be a negative. And, he
said the water generator would not work near ports due to
lobster pots, etc.

Also,, he mentioned that fish are attracted to the generator and it can be
expensive when the thing gets eaten.

Tally ho.

=========
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
The fellow who builds the Cape Horn wind vanes has a great DVD of his
circumnavigation. He had a stern pulpit mounted alternator with a prop
trailing on a line. It appears to have done a good job of supplying his
electrical needs since the boat didn't have an engine. This was in the
early 80's so it was probably just an automotive alternator.

A shark ate the trailing turbine and, after doing without power for a
while, he fabricated a new one from stuff he found on board. The
improvised rotor is beautiful and a testimony to what human ingeniuity can
do with minimal materials and tools.

--
Roger Long

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:11:52 +0000, Larry wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense
for this application.



All the panels are pretty much the same...inefficient, take lots of deck
space to produce any power making them always in the way, and very hard to
place so they get unobstructed sunshine as the boat swings around, either
underway or on the hook. It might keep an unloaded battery bank topped up,
but is a poor choice for powering even the small loads as it is so
intermittent....my point.


It all depends. I have a 45' power boat (a 60 year old nine knotter)
with two 80 watt panels on the cabin roof. They are tied together
through a common regulator and keep my 220 amp.hour house batteries
charged. The house batteries in turn are coupled via a Heart Interface
echo charger to the starting battery to keep it topped up also.

I have a fridge and freezer running permanently (except in the depths
of winter when I turn off the freezer) and usually find that I can sit
on the anchor somewhere for several days before I have to run the
engine.

What I do find is that all the fancy LEDs and coloured lights with
which all the panels and other electrical gizmos are fitted can chew
up 1.5 amps without anything actually being turned on.

Oh - and I have an electric toilet and Electrosan which can hit the
batteries with a fair wallop when I have people on board.



Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens wrote in
:

It all depends. I have a 45' power boat (a 60 year old nine knotter)
with two 80 watt panels on the cabin roof. They are tied together
through a common regulator and keep my 220 amp.hour house batteries
charged. The house batteries in turn are coupled via a Heart Interface
echo charger to the starting battery to keep it topped up also.


Love the boat. Thanks for keeping her afloat. Most powerboaters are in
WAY too much of a hurry to "get there" for me...(c;

But, alas, 160 watts only happens in direct, bright sunshine and, at 14V
is only 11A at peak output, which, if the thing can be kept pointing at
the sun with nothing shadowing it, the 11A peak is at the top of a daily
bell curve, which starts around 9-10 AM and dies off quickly after 3PM,
at best. Boat environment swinging around on a hook is anywhere near "at
best".

You probably make 30 AH/day on sunny days...nothing if it's cloudy.

I'm afraid I'm STILL the advocate for a wind generator in coastal
climates....one that makes serious power 24 hours a day if the wind is
up. On a power boat, of course, even a slow one, you'll want to stow it
with the engine running the alternator(s).

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:57:17 +0000, Larry wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote in
:

It all depends. I have a 45' power boat (a 60 year old nine knotter)
with two 80 watt panels on the cabin roof. They are tied together
through a common regulator and keep my 220 amp.hour house batteries
charged. The house batteries in turn are coupled via a Heart Interface
echo charger to the starting battery to keep it topped up also.


Love the boat. Thanks for keeping her afloat. Most powerboaters are in
WAY too much of a hurry to "get there" for me...(c;

But, alas, 160 watts only happens in direct, bright sunshine and, at 14V
is only 11A at peak output, which, if the thing can be kept pointing at
the sun with nothing shadowing it, the 11A peak is at the top of a daily
bell curve, which starts around 9-10 AM and dies off quickly after 3PM,
at best. Boat environment swinging around on a hook is anywhere near "at
best".

I'm aware of all that. I only mentioned the 80 W to give people an
indication of the size of the panels.

You probably make 30 AH/day on sunny days...nothing if it's cloudy.

I doubt if I make that much in the depths of winter but its surprising
how much I can get when its just ordinarily cloudy.

I'm afraid I'm STILL the advocate for a wind generator in coastal
climates....one that makes serious power 24 hours a day if the wind is
up. On a power boat, of course, even a slow one, you'll want to stow it
with the engine running the alternator(s).

Aaaaah - the noise - the noise. :-(



Eric Stevens

Larry ,, I did some research on the net about the wind generators. Most
posting, stories I read were like the following which is reposted without
permission or attribute ... as in I DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE THIS .. TAKE THAT
JEFF.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why I would not put another wind generator on a boat:

Specifically, the Southwest Power Air Power Wind Turbine, AIR-X or
AIR-404/3. Noise: Everyone complains about the noise, at anchorages, crew
complains underway, they make a moaning noise that is very disturbing
especially if you are trying to sleep in a cabin under the generator. Power
Generation: They produce amazingly little power. They require at least
15 -25 knots of apparent wind to produce any meaningful power. They don't
produce power at anchorages because most anchorages by their nature are in
low-wind areas, they don't produce power going downwind because the apparent
wind is often low. They don't produce power at the dock because you will [?]
of the noise. They only produce power going up wind in a pretty good wind.
Go slow: The wind generator and mast provide a pretty good wind profile and
hence wind resistance.

Southwest Power's air turbines are not well built for the salt water marine
environment and require significant maintenance. The Aluminum components
like the generator body and mast tubes are powder-coated aluminum. After a
few years the coating comes off in big potato-chip-like flakes. I sent mine
back once and have had to paint it twice in five years. I put the mast tubes
in heat-shrunk tubes which has worked well and they stay white. The
generator body has to be painted about every year. The Stainless Steel (SS)
hardware that Southwest uses is 304 SS not nearly as good as 316 SS which
means that it is prone to rust and leave streaks on the deck and topside. I
have removed these and bathed the hardware in mild solution of Oxalic acid
which removes the rust stains and the rust from the hardware; this must be
done two or three times per year.

In summary don't put a wind generator on your boat, and not a Southwest Air
Power turbine. Based on my experience the more solar cells the better.


[It seems as if they have there drawback for sure. The noise was the
biggest complaint. The other item I kept reading about them was that they
needed lots of wind to make power. When in an anchorage, you don't want
lots of wind .. that is why it is an anchorage. ]
================================================== ===============================


This is from an ad I saw on the net .. on solar ... ad, Jeff. No author as
far as I can tell.. Got it Jeff.

Solar panels provide a silent dependable way to supply electricity anywhere,
particularly in places where utility power is not available. Whether its a
mountaintop cabin, a cruising sailboat, a roving RV, or the family home,
there is a solar electric system to meet your needs.

Solar power allows you to live on beautiful rural land without foregoing all
the conveniences of the city, and without expensive utility line extensions
or noisy generators. Thousands of photovoltaic powered homes exist
throughout the country.

Sailboat cruising time can be extended with a few solar modules, since
precious fuel does not need to be used for charging batteries to power the
bilgepump, communications equipment, lights, or refrigerator. Dockside,
solar panels keeps the batteries alive and the bilge pump running without
power hookups.

Recreational vehicles can park anywhere with full use of lights and
appliances without being disturbed by the sound or smell of a generator.
Even if your RV spends a few weeks between trips in a storage lot, solar
panels will keep the battery charged and ready to go when you are ready to
go.

How do they work? To be brief, energy from the sun's light strikes the
solar panels crystals knocking some electrons loose and creating
electricity. Each solar cell in a panel creates a potential of about .45
volts. To create a voltage sufficient to charge a 12 volt battery, 34 to
36 cells are connected in series to produce 15 to 17 volts. The current a
panel is capable of producing is porportional to the area of each cell.
Larger cells produce more electricity: 6" cells = 7.1 amps, 5" cells = 5
amps, 4" cells = 3.1 amps.

How much output can I expect from a solar panel? We use a basic design
rule that a solar panel will contributer about 30% to 35% of its wattage in
amphours each day if the panel is directed toward the sun. This means that
an 80 watt solar panel can be expected to produce approximately 24 to 28
amphours per day when aimed at the sun.

What type panel is best? There are three main types of solar panels:
Monocrystalline (Siemens), Polycrystalline (Kyocera, Solarex, PowerValue),
and Thin Film or amorphous (Uni-Solar). Monocrystalline panels have
uniform dark gray cells and have the highest output per cell area and tend
to be the most expensive. Polycrystalline cells look somewhat like
shattered glass and tend to be less expensive and only slightly less
efficient per cell area. These cells are usually square and result in a
slightly smaller solar panel than solar panels constructed using the more
efficient monocrystalline which tend to be rounder. Monocrystalline and
polycrysalline solar panels are rigid and have a glass cover. Thin Film
type panels are made by depositing the active silicon on either a stainles
plate or a flexible backing. Thin film type panels are about half as
efficient per cell area but are consided unbreakable and shadow protected.

Do solar panels require regulation? As a general rule, very small solar
panels that put out 5 watts or less can get by without a regulator but a
regulator should be used on all solar panels. The self-regulating panels
produce less voltage and theoretically will not overcharge your batteries.
We would rather use higher voltage solar panels and use a regulator which is
quite inexpensive to buy and it can save your batteries.


Here is something on solar.. I think the author is listed .. also from the
net.

From James Forsyth on SailNet liveaboard-list: In reasonably sunny climates,
you can figure solar panels will produce AH roughly equal to 1/3 their rated
watts without messing with them. E.g. a 45 watt panel should be expected to
produce about 15 AH per day. You can increase that to about half if you fuss
with them to keep them properly oriented, so you might get 22 or 23 AH from
a 45 watt panel - but that's under ideal conditions. That's a useful amount
of electricity, but not enough to run a boat, even with two or three panels.

Wind generators vary widely in both output and noise. The small ones,
such as Ampair 100's and the Fourwinds three, are virtually silent, but
their output is pretty small too. We looked at a lot of different models,
read a lot of reviews, and finally settled on a Fourwinds Two. The output
still varies with windspeed, but it comes pretty close to the advertised
values. It's quiet, but not silent. Most of the time underway the wind
generator is quieter than the usual wind and water noise. In winds of under
20 knots, we actually have to look at it to be sure it's running. You can
hear it at anchor, but we don't find it obnoxious. My suggestion is to find
people in your area who have different brands, then go stand by their boats,
or dinghy next to them, and listen. Also, put your hand on their hull or toe
rail to check for vibration. We're quite satisfied with ours. If you're
considering a Marine Aire, talk to people on boats near one ...

With the wind generator and one solar panel we can supply most to all
of our needs if it's sunny, and if the relative wind stays at 10 knots or
more, and we're careful. We have a house bank of about 400 AH, and a 100 amp
Powerline alternator with a Balmar 612 regulator run from our main engine.
We keep our boat on a mooring in the Chesapeake, and find we never have to
run the engine solely to charge the batteries.

We also have a conversion kit to use the generator portion of the Four
Winds as a water-powered generator when we're offshore. The wind generator
doesn't work all that well going downwind, when relative wind is light. Used
as a water-powered generator, it provides massive amounts of power. I
believe the Ampair has a similar set up, and it too should provide lots of
power offshore.



So.. what to do... it seems as if a combo is the answer. But that is
expensive for a coastal cruiser.

I have decided that the wind unit is out. Too much for too little. And my
boat is too small.

The solar panel will only work between 10am and 3pm. In bright sunlight.
The remainder of the time, it takes up space. does
nothing.

Then,, it hit me. A solar panel that can be put up like a sail .. use it
when the conditions are right. A moveable, temporay solar panel. Not
fixed. One I can store, just like I would an anchor.

If I find one in the 45-55 watt range .. and I get 1/3 of the watts in amp
hours per day.. would be something like 15 amp hours per day.

Right?

Now ,, looking at Casey's book .. that is Don Casey for Jeff.

Casey give a daily amp-hour consumption of about 15 amp hours for cabin
lights [ the at anchor ligts in the cabin, etc ] and the anchor light
together.

That isn't bad.

So,, my plan or thought is to get a solar panel but not attach it. Move it
around from place to place so it gets the sun. And,, only use it when it is
worthwhile. When the sun is shining.

Now the question .. where to store it? What else to use it for? The size
of the panel? About 25" by 25" for a 50 watt Kyocera panel.

That is a little over 2' x 2'.

If I sew a piece of Sunbrella up to make a cover, and have the panel in some
type of something that will allow me to take it out and set it up to get the
sunlight ..

Doesn't this make some sense?

What do you think and do you have any ideas?








"Larry" wrote in message
...
Eric Stevens wrote in
:

It all depends. I have a 45' power boat (a 60 year old nine knotter)
with two 80 watt panels on the cabin roof. They are tied together
through a common regulator and keep my 220 amp.hour house batteries
charged. The house batteries in turn are coupled via a Heart Interface
echo charger to the starting battery to keep it topped up also.


Love the boat. Thanks for keeping her afloat. Most powerboaters are in
WAY too much of a hurry to "get there" for me...(c;

But, alas, 160 watts only happens in direct, bright sunshine and, at 14V
is only 11A at peak output, which, if the thing can be kept pointing at
the sun with nothing shadowing it, the 11A peak is at the top of a daily
bell curve, which starts around 9-10 AM and dies off quickly after 3PM,
at best. Boat environment swinging around on a hook is anywhere near "at
best".

You probably make 30 AH/day on sunny days...nothing if it's cloudy.

I'm afraid I'm STILL the advocate for a wind generator in coastal
climates....one that makes serious power 24 hours a day if the wind is
up. On a power boat, of course, even a slow one, you'll want to stow it
with the engine running the alternator(s).

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^