When we pay premium prices for our marine equiptment it needs to be
reliable and WORK. Our safety depends on good working reliable
products. Companies need to make a profit on their products, good, but
when it comes to Marine products they also need to make them with
quality and reliability, were paying extra for that. When they fail
and fail often the company needs to be held accountable. The author is
doing the right thing because it is his only way of telling the
company something is wrong and their product needs to be made better,
I wish more of this would occur. I don't know about you I would love
to sleep better at night knowing my expensive marine equiptment is
going to perform. Cpt. Craig

I agree that the author has every right to speak his mind. It's unfortunate
that we can't discuss matters of this sort like mature adults. I thought
that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa, but it
seems that its members are now posting here as well. There goes the mooring
field!

Louis
s/v Synergy
Westsail 32 #679

"Craig" wrote in message
om...
When we pay premium prices for our marine equiptment it needs to be
reliable and WORK. Our safety depends on good working reliable
products. Companies need to make a profit on their products, good, but
when it comes to Marine products they also need to make them with
quality and reliability, were paying extra for that. When they fail
and fail often the company needs to be held accountable. The author is
doing the right thing because it is his only way of telling the
company something is wrong and their product needs to be made better,
I wish more of this would occur. I don't know about you I would love
to sleep better at night knowing my expensive marine equiptment is
going to perform. Cpt. Craig

I thought
that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa, but it
seems that its members are now posting here as well. There goes the mooring
field!

This "bombing" of Fischer Panda has gone on for months and months. While a few
companies get away with bad products/Bad customer service, I've learned that
sometimes the customers are the real problem. Panda even tried to resolve the
problem and posted a response. They claim improper installation and so on.
We'll never no the whole story, unless we all visit the boat or see detailed
pics.
The web can be dangerous. A nutty consumer can do a lot of damage and spin
stories this way and that.
The juvenile responses were well times to what has essentially become a well
whipped and very dead horse.

Capt Robert B
C&C 32
NY

I believe I have been seeing his posts for a couple of years now and
think I have pieced together a general idea what happened. First of all
the genset was dropped during installation when new and apparently the
installer convinced him to repair it rather than insisting on a
replacement. Then he had a lot of trouble with broken valves, rust and
I think I remember a cracked head. These symptoms seem to indicate
water flooding which would mean that the installer screwed up the
exhaust system too.

I think this guy's beef should be with the installer rather than FP. FP
has bent over backwards to help.

Bobsprit wrote:
I thought
that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa, but it
seems that its members are now posting here as well. There goes the mooring
field!

This "bombing" of Fischer Panda has gone on for months and months. While a few
companies get away with bad products/Bad customer service, I've learned that
sometimes the customers are the real problem. Panda even tried to resolve the
problem and posted a response. They claim improper installation and so on.
We'll never no the whole story, unless we all visit the boat or see detailed
pics.
The web can be dangerous. A nutty consumer can do a lot of damage and spin
stories this way and that.
The juvenile responses were well times to what has essentially become a well
whipped and very dead horse.

Capt Robert B
C&C 32
NY


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Well Bobsprit, you seem to act like you know what's been going on with
my litigation and clearly you don't. I spend 8 months of the year
cruising and have just returned. When I did return I found that
comments from other disgruntled owners were being attributed to me via
the staff of Fischer Panda. That didn't make me happy.

At the same time Fischer Panda finally lost their attempt to change the
jurisdiction of the law suit to FL. They wanted to fight this case on
their turf where the lemon laws are much milder, despite the fact that
they have multiple dealers in RI where I had the unit installed. I
wasn't present at the hearing, but I was told that the judge almost
laughed their lawyer out of court.

Anyhow, all that I've ever wanted out of my suit was to make me whole.
This unit has been a lemon since day 1, and all that I originally asked
for was a replacement generator. They refused. Then I kept investing
more $ into the litigation and under RI law I am entitled to have those
costs reimbursed. FP came back and offered to replace the generator
with units which were not acceptable to me for a lot of reasons (none of
which I feel compelled to debate here) but offered nothing for the legal
fees. Oh, and by the way, I also had to delete any comments about them
from the Internet. I said "no way" as at that time I could have bought
2 generators with my legal fees.

Finally I made one more attempt to settle this thing out of court. I
was ignored, so I bumped up my pressure and created the
www.FischerPandaSucks.com web site. I must admit that I expected more
input from other owners, but most seem to have chosen to not
participate. I can understand, but I know from e-mail and personal
contacts that lots of other people are having similar problems.
However, over 600 people have visited the site in the past week.

As far as me being a nut case, I'm far from that. I'll be one of the
first people to defend a company whose equipment works well. But I also
feel the need to let people know what doesn't work.

I'm the ex-CEO of New Enland's largest ISP before it was merged into a
large telecom company. Since then I've sailed over 20,000 miles and
plan to head out on a circumnavigation in January. I have the financial
wherewithal and technical ability to carry out such a campaign. I
certainly wish that others did too as I believe that we'd have a lot
less shoddy products on the market. I have never stated that ALL
Fischer Panda products are bad...just the version that I own.

My goal as an Internet CEO was to produce the highest quality product
that we could. We had multiple Internet news groups of which I was a
regular participant. When something didn't work I acknowledged it and
discussed what was necessary to fix it. Everything that people asked
for wasn't pssible, but I didn't try to run away or hide from the
problems. I wanted the best product available.

I've been attacked for my approach, but I have to remember that this is
unfortuantely so very common on the Internet. The Internet has allowed
the wimps of the world to anonymously belittle the people who do try to
change things. These are the people who would rather take one up the
tailpipe than fight. I'm not one of them.

So, I'm sorry if I've wasted your precious bandwidth by clogging up this
news group with my opinions. But you know what? I've learned to skip
articles that aren't of interest to me. So instead of attacking me, why
don't you skip over the posts that you aren't interested in and provide
some constructive feedback in the ones that you are.


-- Geoff
www.geoffschultz.org
www.FischerPandaSucks.com

(Bobsprit) wrote in
:

I thought
that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa,
but it seems that its members are now posting here as well. There
goes the mooring field!

This "bombing" of Fischer Panda has gone on for months and months.
While a few companies get away with bad products/Bad customer service,
I've learned that sometimes the customers are the real problem. Panda
even tried to resolve the problem and posted a response. They claim
improper installation and so on. We'll never no the whole story,
unless we all visit the boat or see detailed pics.
The web can be dangerous. A nutty consumer can do a lot of damage and
spin stories this way and that.
The juvenile responses were well times to what has essentially become
a well whipped and very dead horse.

Capt Robert B
C&C 32
NY

Sorry, skipping over the posts that don't interest me does little
to recover the wasted bandwidth. It has already been wasted. As an ex-CEO
of an ISP company you, of course, know this. But then, how many CEOs
actually know much about the technical end of what their company does?
After leaving and cruising for a year, I get back online only to discover
that this tired thread is still rambling on. Get your old generator off of
your boat,
get a new one, and get on with the important part of why most of us
own a boat! And most importantly, GET A LIFE! I suspect that by
now FP has gathered enough missinformation to slap you with a
libel suit when the time is right.

Doug


"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
9.17...
Well Bobsprit, you seem to act like you know what's been going on with
my litigation and clearly you don't. I spend 8 months of the year
cruising and have just returned. When I did return I found that
comments from other disgruntled owners were being attributed to me via
the staff of Fischer Panda. That didn't make me happy.

At the same time Fischer Panda finally lost their attempt to change the
jurisdiction of the law suit to FL. They wanted to fight this case on
their turf where the lemon laws are much milder, despite the fact that
they have multiple dealers in RI where I had the unit installed. I
wasn't present at the hearing, but I was told that the judge almost
laughed their lawyer out of court.

Anyhow, all that I've ever wanted out of my suit was to make me whole.
This unit has been a lemon since day 1, and all that I originally asked
for was a replacement generator. They refused. Then I kept investing
more $ into the litigation and under RI law I am entitled to have those
costs reimbursed. FP came back and offered to replace the generator
with units which were not acceptable to me for a lot of reasons (none of
which I feel compelled to debate here) but offered nothing for the legal
fees. Oh, and by the way, I also had to delete any comments about them
from the Internet. I said "no way" as at that time I could have bought
2 generators with my legal fees.

Finally I made one more attempt to settle this thing out of court. I
was ignored, so I bumped up my pressure and created the
www.FischerPandaSucks.com web site. I must admit that I expected more
input from other owners, but most seem to have chosen to not
participate. I can understand, but I know from e-mail and personal
contacts that lots of other people are having similar problems.
However, over 600 people have visited the site in the past week.

As far as me being a nut case, I'm far from that. I'll be one of the
first people to defend a company whose equipment works well. But I also
feel the need to let people know what doesn't work.

I'm the ex-CEO of New Enland's largest ISP before it was merged into a
large telecom company. Since then I've sailed over 20,000 miles and
plan to head out on a circumnavigation in January. I have the financial
wherewithal and technical ability to carry out such a campaign. I
certainly wish that others did too as I believe that we'd have a lot
less shoddy products on the market. I have never stated that ALL
Fischer Panda products are bad...just the version that I own.

My goal as an Internet CEO was to produce the highest quality product
that we could. We had multiple Internet news groups of which I was a
regular participant. When something didn't work I acknowledged it and
discussed what was necessary to fix it. Everything that people asked
for wasn't pssible, but I didn't try to run away or hide from the
problems. I wanted the best product available.

I've been attacked for my approach, but I have to remember that this is
unfortuantely so very common on the Internet. The Internet has allowed
the wimps of the world to anonymously belittle the people who do try to
change things. These are the people who would rather take one up the
tailpipe than fight. I'm not one of them.

So, I'm sorry if I've wasted your precious bandwidth by clogging up this
news group with my opinions. But you know what? I've learned to skip
articles that aren't of interest to me. So instead of attacking me, why
don't you skip over the posts that you aren't interested in and provide
some constructive feedback in the ones that you are.


-- Geoff
www.geoffschultz.org
www.FischerPandaSucks.com

(Bobsprit) wrote in
:

I thought
that the juvenile behaviour would be restricted to alt.sailing.asa,
but it seems that its members are now posting here as well. There
goes the mooring field!

This "bombing" of Fischer Panda has gone on for months and months.
While a few companies get away with bad products/Bad customer service,
I've learned that sometimes the customers are the real problem. Panda
even tried to resolve the problem and posted a response. They claim
improper installation and so on. We'll never no the whole story,
unless we all visit the boat or see detailed pics.
The web can be dangerous. A nutty consumer can do a lot of damage and
spin stories this way and that.
The juvenile responses were well times to what has essentially become
a well whipped and very dead horse.

Capt Robert B
C&C 32
NY

First of all
the genset was dropped during installation when new and apparently the
installer convinced him to repair it rather than insisting on a
replacement.

Good lord. Yes, I seem to remember reading that as well. But I especially like
his comments, such as the one about few responses to his website, yet he
"knows" many people are having problems. I wonder why they won't join his
campaign. His comments about "shoddy products" is indicative of a paranoid
nature. There are rarely "shoddy products" in the marine industry. There's no
money in it. Perhaps he meant to say that there's flawed products out there?
I hope he and FP can come to some agreement, though his adversarial stance
makes that unlikely.
Now if someone would take Hunter to court for making ugly sailboats, then we'll
be getting somewhere!

RB

Quite often when I read the replies I feel like I'm playing that kids
game where you tell someone a story and they repeat it to the person
behind them, etc, etc and when the story gets to the end of the line it
bears little resemblance to what happened. And its for this reason that
I don't want to keep discussing point issues.

I also have to laugh about the legal and mental health advice being
issued. In the following post we have bobsprit claiming that I have a
"paranoid nature" because I believe that there are some shoddy marine
products out there! Oh my! I guess I should claim that Bob suffers
from delusional tenancies if he doesn't believe that! :-)

I also had Doug Dotson claiming that I may be making libelous statements
about Fischer Panda. The definition of libel is "A false publication,
as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's
reputation." I can assure you that I've been very careful to make sure
that all of my comments are completely true to the best of my knowledge.
Basically I've presented the history of my ownership as well as
observations related to Fischer Panda's response. While these
statements may damage their reputation, they're based upon the truth and
thus aren't libelous.

I can assure you that I'm not having fun with this, but I'm heavily
vested in this. The general problem is that companies can outspend the
little guy in court and most of these things just go away because people
don't have the financial ability to see them through. This is a case of
where they ran into the wrong guy. Personally I like to see the little
guy challenge the corporations and hopefully win. As I've said over and
over, I'm not doing this for personal gain, I just want to be made whole
again. If RI law didn't provide for this I probably wouldn't have
pursued it. The only people who are making out in this are the lawyers.

-- Geoff

(Bobsprit) wrote in
:

First of all
the genset was dropped during installation when new and apparently the
installer convinced him to repair it rather than insisting on a
replacement.

Good lord. Yes, I seem to remember reading that as well. But I
especially like his comments, such as the one about few responses to
his website, yet he "knows" many people are having problems. I wonder
why they won't join his campaign. His comments about "shoddy products"
is indicative of a paranoid nature. There are rarely "shoddy products"
in the marine industry. There's no money in it. Perhaps he meant to
say that there's flawed products out there? I hope he and FP can come
to some agreement, though his adversarial stance makes that unlikely.
Now if someone would take Hunter to court for making ugly sailboats,
then we'll be getting somewhere!

RB

First of all
the genset was dropped during installation when new and apparently the
installer convinced him to repair it rather than insisting on a
replacement.

Good lord. Yes, I seem to remember reading that as well. But I especially
like
his comments, such as the one about few responses to his website, yet he
"knows" many people are having problems. I wonder why they won't join his
campaign. His comments about "shoddy products" is indicative of a paranoid
nature. There are rarely "shoddy products" in the marine industry. There's no
money in it. Perhaps he meant to say that there's flawed products out there?
I hope he and FP can come to some agreement, though his adversarial stance
makes that unlikely.
Now if someone would take Hunter to court for making ugly sailboats, then
we'll
be getting somewhere!

RB

Come on, Bob. Everyone over in ASA is aware that you know very little and are
a novice when it comes to all things boat-related. Over here you sound like a
corporate shill for FP. You really should add a legend to the bottom of your
posts saying that the views expressed are the author's only and the author
usually doesn't know what he is talking about.

Usenet was never intended to look like your average boat
magazine.....a sales brochure.

Thank you for posting your problems with Fischer Panda. The guys
slamming you are regulars that have been here for years and have no
regards for the thousands of lurkers who come and go that never post
anything because of shyness or a fear of being slammed against the
chart table by the posters who've been here for years.

That guy who started watching this newsgroup 2 weeks ago, I'm sure,
would thank you for posting here if he dared absorb the wrath of your
detractors. He sits silently at his terminal saying, "God I'm glad I
don't have one of those gensets." You've done him a great service.

Let 'em bitch. It rolls right off. This newsgroup is OPINIONS and
everyone is entitled to theirs. Those loyal to the company, a
phenomenon that has always fascinated me because it's rediculous,
those employed by the company (especially those who are provocateurs
attacking company critics as part of their jobs on usenet) will
continue their relentless attacks on anyone to posts something you'd
never see in a boat magazine....the sales brochure with the rosey
glasses....

If not here, where else would they find out YOUR OPINION or mine.....



Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?