On 13 Nov 2006 13:17:36 -0800, "dudley"
wrote:

But I have talked with people on the dock that swear by biocide because
they have never had a problem with their fuel. I guess it's the
placebo effect.

What ever works for you.

There seems to be a consensus among the "experts" that if you use the
engine regulary the fuel is more likely to stay clean, probably
because your engine is recirculating it through the filters on a
regular basis. The folks who seem to have the most problems are those
with large tanks and irregular usage.

Just what is it with boat fuel? I've driven over 2 million
miles, over 30 years using 4 trucks and have never been shut
down by dirty filters.
I've had them freeze in Winter.

SBV


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:10:22 -0500, DSK
wrote:

But hey, if you spend an extra 50$ on some new-age
feel-good
doohickey for your fuel system, you could probably save
on
some of those 7$ filter elements

Clean filter elements and a built in fuel polishing system
are cheap
insurance against an unsheduled shut down in my opinion.
Skip has a
sailboat so at least he has redundant propulsion. Judging
from the
stories I hear from people almost everyone, sail or power,
has
experienced a shutdown at one time or another from dirty
fuel. One of
my neighbors with a 40 something motor sailor told me that
he and his
wife stopped going to the Bahamas because they lost power
everytime
they crossed the gulf stream.

That's the problem with dirty fuel; it almost always hits
you in
marginal conditions when you are least prepared to deal
with it.

Because you have had no problems after cleaning the fuel installing new
filters and an Alge-X does not in any way mean that it works. It just
means cleaning the fuel and replacing the filters worked. Its like the
diet pills that say "Taken with a sensible diet and regular exersise
you will loose weight." OK, now try it with out taking the pill and
see what happens.

As a physicist, I say "Balder Dash"

Lets hear from all those people out there that have NO ALGE-X
installation that also have NO problems.

The original post wanted to hear only from those that had installed the
thing. This is how you skew a study if that is what you want. But if
you want truth you need to hear from the 95% who dont use it and dont
have problems as well as the 5% that do use it and dont have problems.

It is all an outgrowth of the myth in the 1930s that your car would get
better fuel mileage with a "cow magnet" strapped to the gas line.

I would say "real world, first person", includes me who have been
boating for 40 years with no fuel problems and NO ALGE-X Thats "real
world" as well as the people who use it.

"jim.isbell" wrote in message
oups.com...

Because you have had no problems after cleaning the fuel installing new
filters and an Alge-X does not in any way mean that it works. It just
means cleaning the fuel and replacing the filters worked. Its like the
diet pills that say "Taken with a sensible diet and regular exersise
you will loose weight." OK, now try it with out taking the pill and
see what happens.

As a physicist, I say "Balder Dash"

Lets hear from all those people out there that have NO ALGE-X
installation that also have NO problems.

The original post wanted to hear only from those that had installed the
thing. This is how you skew a study if that is what you want. But if
you want truth you need to hear from the 95% who dont use it and dont
have problems as well as the 5% that do use it and dont have problems.

It is all an outgrowth of the myth in the 1930s that your car would get
better fuel mileage with a "cow magnet" strapped to the gas line.

I would say "real world, first person", includes me who have been
boating for 40 years with no fuel problems and NO ALGE-X Thats "real
world" as well as the people who use it.


I wear a pendant watch as a protection against attack from Bengal Tigers. It
must work, as I have never even SEEN a Bengal Tiger while wearing my watch.
:-^

On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:19:31 -0500, "Scotty"
wrote:

Just what is it with boat fuel? I've driven over 2 million
miles, over 30 years using 4 trucks and have never been shut
down by dirty filters.
I've had them freeze in Winter.

Good question. I think with boats the problem is large tanks sitting
idle for longer periods of time. Condensation forms, and the
interface between the water and fuel is where the little diesel bugs
seem to thrive. Boats that are frequently used don't seem to have
problems, same with trucks I suspect. Since virtually all diesel
engines recirculate unburned fuel, just running the engines regularly
filters the entire tank.

On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:06:51 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

I wear a pendant watch as a protection against attack from Bengal Tigers. It
must work, as I have never even SEEN a Bengal Tiger while wearing my watch.

Obviously you should keep wearing that watch. There have been some
positive reports about Algae-X from intelligent people who claimed to
have tried other things first with no success. Who knows? The impact
of electromagnetic forces on biological organisms is poorly inderstood
if at all, but right now there is no scientific proof. That's why I
told Skip that the jury is still out instead of flat out claiming no
benefit. I also think that it can't hurt, so if you have already done
the other important things and don't mind shelling out a few bucks,
what the heck.

I disagree with the statement it can't hurt. It could end up fouling
injectors or clogging them or making seals start to leak, it could have
problems with fuel pump as well.
Until this has all been checked out in a study and documented by some
recognized testing agency I wouldn't dare put that stuff in my fuel.
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:06:51 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

I wear a pendant watch as a protection against attack from Bengal Tigers.
It
must work, as I have never even SEEN a Bengal Tiger while wearing my
watch.

Obviously you should keep wearing that watch. There have been some
positive reports about Algae-X from intelligent people who claimed to
have tried other things first with no success. Who knows? The impact
of electromagnetic forces on biological organisms is poorly inderstood
if at all, but right now there is no scientific proof. That's why I
told Skip that the jury is still out instead of flat out claiming no
benefit. I also think that it can't hurt, so if you have already done
the other important things and don't mind shelling out a few bucks,
what the heck.

"Chi Chi" wrote in message
et...
I disagree with the statement it can't hurt. It could end up fouling
injectors or clogging them or making seals start to leak, it could have
problems with fuel pump as well.
Until this has all been checked out in a study and documented by some
recognized testing agency I wouldn't dare put that stuff in my fuel.

Algea-X doesn't go into the fuel. The fuel goes through the Algea-X. It
cannot contaminate the fuel, it's just a magnetic field. Could it help? Bog
only knows. But it can't hurt.

Replying to my own post so as to keep it in the right chain order for
those with threaded readers...

While it's not yet to the 90 cited in the original, the expected has
happened - a few users have contributed, and the rest tell us why they
think it won't work, or why someone who's had success can't properly
attribute it to Algae-X.

Mostly heat and not much light, of course. Somewhere, someone
mentioned a PS test of the product, but I have no access to it - does
anyone here, and want to post it?

Meanwhile, I've also put the same question to several sailnet mailing
lists and have gotten a much smaller sample, mostly of users. One who
isn't, yet, but will be, and my response, and additional commentary,
are below:

From: "Danny Crump"
To: columbia
Subject: [columbia] Algae-X
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:45 AM

Here's my understanding of the diesel fuel productology (not to be
confused with proctology):

1) Algae-X has no effect on critters in the tank. (It does not
explode algae as it passes by the magnet)

2) Algae-X has no effect on gasoline.

3) Algae-X is not needed in any system the uses fuel in a rapid
manner. (ie fuel is refined on Monday, shipped to the supplier on
Tuesday, sold on Wednesday, and consumed on Thursday.)

4) Algae-X is effective at converting asphalt and tar (long chain
carbon sludge) that forms in diesel fuel which sits for extended
periods of time.

5) Algae-X should be placed between the tank and the primary filter.

6) I will install Algae-X on my new-to-me Endeavour 37 based on the
WHAT-THE-HELL-IT-CAN'T-HURT PRINCIPLE.

7) The most effective diesel cleaning/polishing system is opening
the tank through an inspection port, pumping out and disposing of the
old fuel, cleaning the bottom of the tank to remove all the settlins'
and refilling with fresh fuel. This system is scientifically proven
to work every time.

8) Preventative measure #1. I am removing the fuel fill line from
the deck fitting and rerouting it to inside a locker. My rationale
is that the fuel fitting is protected from rain water intrusion
should the boat develop a poorly sealed cap. NOTE: SURVEYORS DON'T
LIKE THIS!!! YOU WILL BE REQUIRED TO REROUTE THE FILL HOSE AT SALE
TIME!!!

9) Preventative measure #2. Fabricate a "H" shaped moisture filter
from 1" PVC and place it in-line with the tank vent. Fill the filter
with descant to prevent moisture intrusion from the vent
line. Change the descant on a regular PM schedule. If you need
instructions I think I have a photo somewhere and will E-mail it.

10) Use Kolor Kit water detecting paste regularly to check for water
intrusion into your fuel tank. Industrial hardware suppliers in
petro-chemical areas usually stock this paste. Also, most gasoline
tanker trucks carry the paste. If nothing else find a driver
dropping fuel at a service station and ask him for a small bit of the
paste (bring your own container).

-Danny Crump-

and my response:

#4 is the only reason I'd install it, as I will have a fuel polishing
system and dual racors (to change on the fly) when I finish, and I
expect
that my tank will take a very long time to empty, if we're able to
stick to
our guns in our anticipated use. I like the thought of recovering the
otherwise lost energy. Unfortunately, it seems that the only way this
works
is to have multiple passes, all of which should be going through
filters if
you do it like they suggest in their presentation. If the filter takes
out
the sludge, there's no proof that Algae-X did anything to enhance the
quality of the fuel. If it doesn't, the engine stops...

However, there's very little empirical proof of #4 - and none that I
have
seen which would pass the smell test for any documentation vs small
sample
or conjecture by users vs labs - so I'm still considering, vs buying.

However, I would like to see the desiccant chamber you describe -
thanks.

(end of my reply to Columbia)

Going further, I don't disagree with any of the non-user postulations
here (RBC/B) - but it doesn't address the question of actual use and
either failure or success, and on what basis that analysis is reached.
I'm not the engineer that Roger is, but I tend toward requiring the
level of proof that one would if buying something not widely proven or
understood. Those who followed (as one example) my expected use of a
drive saver, and the discussion and interchange following that post
(asking exactly the same question - who's used these, particularly
while having their drive saved, and with what result?), and my
subsequent migration to *not* using that, even though I had one offered
to me for free, would know my empirical nature.

And, I think part of the problem WRT getting to the bottom of it is
that the product doesn't carry a name which fits with their
presentation - something which breaks up carbon fuel solids, not that
kills algae or separates clumps of dead ones. In fact, their
presentation strongly recommended against biocides, claiming that if
they aren't clumped, but alive and swimming, they'd pass through the
filters' smallest iteration, and burn, harmlessly.

Yet, one of the endorsements I cited (which I can't put my hands on,
but it's in the company stuff, I'm pretty sure, as opposed to being in
the Google I did before my post) had a known contaminated sample of
fuel, confirmed biogrowth at the beginning, runs through the unit only
(no filter) for several passes, and no sludge or biogrowth following
the (very small sample) test. It's this sort of thing, but on a much
larger scale, and with some nationally or industry-related test unit,
which would be useful to me.

In the presentation given by the vendor, they noted that the usual
diesel engine returns 75-80% of the fuel pumped to it, unused, to the
tank. They say that to work the unit needs a minimum of 3-4 passes -
that is, the tank should be cycled 3-4 times before it's "treated" -
but if there are filters in the line (as there should be), that
wouldn't be far off polishing in the usual sense of the word. That is,
if you have a 100 gallon tank, by the time you've used 25 gallons,
generally, your tank will be polished, in their terms. Of course, if
you started with garbage in the tank, likely you'll have removed it
with the filters (or the unit, but who could tell?) by that time, as
well. Yet, their files, and some of my responses, are full of very
reduced filter changes, and in the case of large users with what I
presume to be very high volume use, notably lengthened injector service
intervals.

As stated earlier, I wasn't here (this thread) with my mind made up to
buy, but instead with a healthy skepticism looking for real-life
experiences (from someone not on the company website - there's lots of
it there), particularly WRT documentation that it *doesn't* work.
Anyone can loudly say that a fisherman anchor won't work in general
use, but unless they can point to PS tests (even then not all that
scientific), or their own use where it failed, all one gets from the
exercise is someone else ranting. OTOH, one may say that a Spade or
Bulwagga is pure bull hockey, but have not only many users compare
their use to their prior installation, but point to PS tests (flawed as
they may be), or Glenn's real-world BVI tests with boats instead of
winches, with real ocean vs beaches.

Absent such interest on the part of the usual cruiser/boater testing
units, I rely on the kindness of strangers, so to speak (channeling
Blanche, here), being very sure to extend my own kindnesses where I
may, and, in particular, not providing opinion, but instead experience
and/or citations where available.

So, who's used these, and what were the results?? And, of course,
thanks to those users who have contributed so far.


L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely
nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing
about in
boats-or *with* boats.

In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.

Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to
do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Meanwhile, I've also put the same question to several sailnet mailing
lists and have gotten a much smaller sample, mostly of users.

Of course. What better place to get info on whether one
should join a cult, than from the most devoted cult members?

DSK