DSK wrote:
snip..

I think what Larry was suggesting comes under the heading of "allowing
nature to take it's course" since the situation Roger described is
almost a guarantee that the cord end will fall into the water at some
point.

This may sound funny coming from me, but I'd suggest having a friendly
talk with the guy. He may think he's doing a great job. No need for a
confrontation.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King



Good idea. There's a chance he may be a half decent guy who just
doesn't know any better.
If he gets uppity, or nasty when you approach in a 'low key, helpful
manner'...then you know what you're dealing with.

Rosalie B. wrote:

This whole post is a cheap shot. "Bob"

is not at issue here, and neither is...
I would definitely expect a 12 yo to be at least as able to figure out...

And 0-18 years? Get real. At 0 years they aren't going
to be running around the docks and they should be capable of thought
well before 18 years.

Sounds as though you lack a basic understanding of child development.
Go to

http://www.childdevelopmentinfo.com/...t/piaget.shtml

for a basic tutorial and read a bit. Interesting thing about Piaget.
The idea is decades old yet, today new brain scan technology supports
all of Piaget's work. And do not forget that most of our brains are
not completely wired until about age 20.

When was the last time you went to a public swimming pool?
To follow your line of though there is no need for lifeguards at pools
because kids should know better to walk not run and will always behave
in a safe manner.

And as I said befo So when was the last time you made a mistake? I
guess you better get rid of those smoke detectors because you'll
never leave anything on the stove and boil a pot dry.

Did you raise any kids or do you get your child raising ideas Rush
Limbaugh?

Bob

Bob

On 2006-06-12 08:47:17 -0400, Rosalie B. said:

I have seen a power cord with the end in the water, but it was the
marina end and not the boat end of the cord. (It was in the Bahamas
and the dockmaster didn't seem concerned.) That cord it would have
been difficult to retrieve without going on board the boat.

Yes, but the marina end falling in doesn't present much of a hazard.
The cord isn't live then. DUH. I'd really like to see you grab a live
wet A/C cord that is coated with salt water and live. Apparently, you
don't have the brains god gave an ant.

"Bob" wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote:

This whole post is a cheap shot. "Bob"

is not at issue here, and neither is...
I would definitely expect a 12 yo to be at least as able to figure out...

And 0-18 years? Get real. At 0 years they aren't going
to be running around the docks and they should be capable of thought
well before 18 years.

I have a good understanding of child development and reductio ad
absurdum arguments do not cut it with me. Whether I use smoke
detectors or not is irrelevant. (Yes I do use them but I do not cook)
Not having a life guard at a pool is never something I have ever
recommended, and it has nothing to do with the need for a parent to
take care of children when they are toddlers on a dock.

I have 4 children and 11 grandchildren, I was a school teacher in
middle school for 7 years, I coached an age group swim team for 7
years and I have studied Piaget. Having formal operational reasoning
is not a pre-requisite for knowing that you can pull a cord up out of
the water without going into the water.

Yes the hazard isn't too great for public safety if the marina end of
the cord is in the water, but I don't think it is good for the
equipment (which in the instance I cited belonged to the marina and
not to the boater).

I think the main hazard that Roger cited would be to people who had a
legitimate reason to be in the water (like divers working on a prop)
and who did not know that the cord was in the water or if the cord
fell in while they were working.

We were taught to assess probability (how likely something was to
happen) and hazard (how severe the problem would be if it happened).
In this case the severity if the breakers did not trip would be very
great, but the probability would be low. You can think of almost any
scenario where there is a possibility of something happening. That
doesn't mean that it is probable. Unplugging the marina end of the
cord removes the hazard so that the probablity is almost moot.

Sounds as though you lack a basic understanding of child development.
Go to

http://www.childdevelopmentinfo.com/...t/piaget.shtml

for a basic tutorial and read a bit. Interesting thing about Piaget.
The idea is decades old yet, today new brain scan technology supports
all of Piaget's work. And do not forget that most of our brains are
not completely wired until about age 20.

When was the last time you went to a public swimming pool?
To follow your line of though there is no need for lifeguards at pools
because kids should know better to walk not run and will always behave
in a safe manner.

And as I said befo So when was the last time you made a mistake? I
guess you better get rid of those smoke detectors because you'll
never leave anything on the stove and boil a pot dry.

Did you raise any kids or do you get your child raising ideas Rush
Limbaugh?

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Bob" wrote:

I think the main hazard that Roger cited would be to people who had a
legitimate reason to be in the water (like divers working on a prop)
and who did not know that the cord was in the water or if the cord
fell in while they were working.

We were taught to assess probability (how likely something was to
happen) and hazard (how severe the problem would be if it happened).
In this case the severity if the breakers did not trip would be very
great, but the probability would be low. You can think of almost any
scenario where there is a possibility of something happening. That
doesn't mean that it is probable. Unplugging the marina end of the
cord removes the hazard so that the probablity is almost moot.

What does the marina management say on this about permanently fastening the
power cord to the dock. That is a liability that if someone did get hurt,
tripping over it or badly shocked, their lawyers would make sure they got to
own the marina. I do know that our marina, they would nicely asked to remove
it or it would be removed by marina personnel and probably disappear in the
dumpster.

Leanne

We were taught to assess probability (how likely something was to
happen) and hazard (how severe the problem would be if it happened).

Well, arguing probability doesn't make a shred of sense when you're talking
about a simple situation like this one. Effectively hard-wiring a live
electrical cord on a pier is both stupid and a violation of the electrical
code, not to mention common sense. Choosing this as a foundation for
arguing logic doesn't make much sense.

"Bill Kearney" wrote:

We were taught to assess probability (how likely something was to
happen) and hazard (how severe the problem would be if it happened).

Well, arguing probability doesn't make a shred of sense when you're talking
about a simple situation like this one. Effectively hard-wiring a live
electrical cord on a pier is both stupid and a violation of the electrical
code, not to mention common sense. Choosing this as a foundation for
arguing logic doesn't make much sense.

The probability in question was for if the live end of the cord fell
into the water. Roger's scenario had someone jumping into the water
after it, and then someone going in to rescue them. I can totally
agree that people who have no skills will often try to rescue someone
and die in the futile attempt. Happens a lot, especially in confined
space accidents.

I was questioning whether, since the cord is tied down to the pier,
the cord would not be most likely pulled out of the water from the
pier without jumping in.

Yes the screwing shut the box with the cord attached is stupid and a
violation of code, but Roger fixed that by unscrewing the box and
unplugging the cord.

I don't think anything more than that is needed until such time as
someone talks to the marina and/or the boater.

Roger Long wrote:
Dear Mrs. Manners,

What do you do when your marina neighbors are endangering other users,
your guests, and the metal parts of your boat?

The nimrod on the face of our pier, absent for the past few days, has
compulsively screwed his shore power cord down to the dock with cable
clamps on about 9" spacing. That's good, I guess. While admiring this
arrangement, I noticed that he had also put a screw in the cover of
the power stand so it couldn't be opened. That made me wonder, when I
looked at the power cord coiled neatly in the driving rain with the
live end about six inches from the edge of the dock, whether he
unscrews it every time to throw the breaker.

Inquiring minds can't leave well enough alone so I got a screwdriver
and removed the screw. All breakers were on. The paper labels that
tell you which breaker goes to which outlet are long gone at our
marina and I didn't want to risk turning off someone's boat so I just
disconnected the cord and hung it over the hook.

I can just see it. One of the (generally under the influence) sunset
watchers comes down and kicks the cord in. They reach in to retrieve
it and follow it in with the shock.

The question I have WRT this is simple - don't you people use RCD's
(residual current devices) instead of straight breakers? If you did,
this scenario would be plain impossible. Any current over milliamps
leaking from active to earth would trip out the breaker.

All circuits in this sort of scenario should be done in this way.
Relying on people to do the right thing WRT power is a waste of time.

PDW

The probability in question was for if the live end of the cord fell
into the water. Roger's scenario had someone jumping into the water
after it, and then someone going in to rescue them. I can totally
agree that people who have no skills will often try to rescue someone
and die in the futile attempt. Happens a lot, especially in confined
space accidents.

It doesn't take much for someone to accidentally fall into the water. Be
they drunk, incompetent, tired, disoriented from a day on the waves or just
plain unlucky. There shouldn't be the added risk of FATALITY due to someone
leaving a LIVE cord lying about.

While I'm always a fan of the saying "Being stupid should hurt" it's not
supposed to be fatal. But I'll stop one step short of using the tired "what
about risks to CHILDREN!" shrill cry...

I don't think anything more than that is needed until such time as
someone talks to the marina and/or the boater.

This is true.

Relying on people to do the right thing WRT power is a waste of time.

Like relying on the marina to have it properly set up?