DSK wrote:
wrote:
What is the downside of this? I'm all for it.

Well, sure. You're already stuck having to take classs and
get a license.

.... Us PWC'ers have been the first segment of boating to be
subject to mandatory education requirements over the last five or six
years or so, we have been all for it from the beginning,

Not all PWCers are "all for it"

Well, the pwc'ing COMMUNITY at large is all for it and has been ever
since I"ve been a part of that community for that last nine years or
so. PWC rights advocacy groups and IMO all of us more responsible,
informed, thinking riders, have advocated and supported, mandatory
education and certification, for ALL boaters as long as I've been
involved, and it seems like an excellent idea to me.

and there are still a lot of
jetski drivers who operate their boats dangerously &
offensively.

Yes, and operators of other size and shape power boats too. That is
why it seems look a great idea to try to guarantee that anyone driving
one has at least been instructed in the basics.

Some do it even after taking classes & getting
licensed, seems like they consider it part of the fun.



The reason why PWC's were the first to be regulated & to
have a license required was due to the large number of
incidents wherein PWC drivers injured others. Injuring
yourself is not the state's business IMHO.


I don't follow your thinking at all. Power boaters with bigger boats
than pwc's can certainly do lots of damage to others and the properties
of others as well as to themselves, and often do. (And to their
families and passengers.)

.... it seems to me that it would suggest
that it's not really any additional burden for sailors because they're
probably getting educated and trained before they hit the water anyway.


Yeah, let's just go ahead and have the gov't burden them
with classes & licensing req'ments etc etc, after all they
can't possibly harm anybody else at 5 knots.

I don't really see what the big burden is. The class is 8 hours and
free, here in New York State anyway.

And you don't
want people to get the idea that it's a free country.



I don't know that the "it's a free country" platitude dissuades me from
thinking that this is a good idea, especially when you look at accident
and injury statistics in states that have done it already. I guess
you're not in favor of automobile licensing either? After all, I
suppose, it's anyone's free choice to get onto a crowded road they know
is populated by tons of dangerous uneucated maniacs.....every man for
himself, why would the government have any interest in stepping on my
freedom by insisting that I learn to drive and get tested before I get
behind the wheel? I guess I must be some kind of communist.

Sounds to me like some people just think they're too good to take the
course and just don't want to be bothered...tough.

richforman

Not all PWCers are "all for it"

wrote:
Well, the pwc'ing COMMUNITY at large is all for it

Of course. The jerk-ski drivers give you all a bad name...
as well as putting you just as much (perhaps more) at risk
of injury than the rest of us who are unlucky enough to be
on the water near them.



... PWC rights advocacy groups and IMO all of us more responsible,
informed, thinking riders, have advocated and supported, mandatory
education and certification, for ALL boaters as long as I've been
involved, and it seems like an excellent idea to me.


Why? Because you are saddled with a peer group that includes
reckless noisy fools?

I have been sailing for 40 years, have never injured myself
or anybody else with any boat, in fact I have rescued people
numerous times & received official commendations twice for
rescues.

Do I need a "license" to sail a boat, in your opinion?

Bear in mind a sailboat that goes 5 knots presents none of
the same risks... in fact one of the biggest risks is
getting hit my some motor boater. Will taking a course &
getting a license reduce this risk?






.... there are still a lot of
jetski drivers who operate their boats dangerously &
offensively.


Yes, and operators of other size and shape power boats too. That is
why it seems look a great idea to try to guarantee that anyone driving
one has at least been instructed in the basics.


I disagree. A better strategy would be for the state to
ENFORCE already existing laws regarding liability & safe
action. For a skipper who damages his own property or
injures himself, tough luck. For one who injures somebody
else... perhaps you or perhaps me... there are already laws
by which he can be made to pay for damage & injury, as well
as suffer civil penalties. This should be pursued but very
rarely is... not only pursued but given enough publicity
that anyone in the boating community will be aware of it.



The reason why PWC's were the first to be regulated & to
have a license required was due to the large number of
incidents wherein PWC drivers injured others. Injuring
yourself is not the state's business IMHO.



I don't follow your thinking at all. Power boaters with bigger boats
than pwc's can certainly do lots of damage to others

Not with the frequency that PWC drivers seem to.




I don't really see what the big burden is. The class is 8 hours and
free, here in New York State anyway.


It is a burden on my time that I do not have now, and it is
a burden to the taxpayers... do you genuinely believe it is
free?

And if the state thinks it's a great idea to force people to
take an 8 hour class now, and not charge them, how long will
it be before some busybody decides that boat statistics
haven't improved enough, and increases the time required? Or
before the state decides that boaters can afford to help
relieve more of the tax burden on other citizens?



I don't know that the "it's a free country" platitude dissuades me from
thinking that this is a good idea,

I think it's a great idea for jetskis and vroom-vroom boats.
I don't want to be run down by some drunk bonehead going at
a speed that would be illegal on any interstate highway.



.... I guess
you're not in favor of automobile licensing either? After all, I
suppose, it's anyone's free choice to get onto a crowded road they know
is populated by tons of dangerous uneucated maniacs.....every man for
himself, why would the government have any interest in stepping on my
freedom by insisting that I learn to drive and get tested before I get
behind the wheel? I guess I must be some kind of communist.

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't matter.

What you're suggesting is that *I* ought to be force to take
a class so that *you* can operate a vessel that is a hazard
to me.

This is more like insisting that bicyclists have to get
licenses because car drivers do... or pedestrians.





Sounds to me like some people just think they're too good to take the
course

Exactly.

I never needed it before and I don't need it now... and I
know thousands of other recreational sailors who don't either.

When was the last time anybody was injured by being run into
by an aggressive sailboat driver?

DSK

You seem to be saying that the law should be administered on a
case-by-case
wherein we decide in the case of every individual boater whether or not
they
have the pre-existing skills and experience to just get out of having
the take the class.

Seems ridiculous to me and I just don't see what the big deal is. You
say the 8-hour
course is "a burden on my time that I do not have now," but then
describe yourself
(stating the obvious) as a recreational sailor, so this would be the
equivalent of one good
day on the water you might have to give up. I still don't think the
burden is that onerous.

Maybe you're just saying that there should be a distinction made
between sailors and
power-boaters. I don't know that I disagree vehemently with that, I
think the licensing is
an excellent idea for pwc'ers and all other power-boaters, and the
proof is in the pudding in
the accident statistics states where these laws have already been
booked. Lives have been
saved, the water is safer overall in those places, I think it's well
worth it. But in the spirit of taking one for the team, I still don't
think it's terrible for the same rule to be in effect for ALL boaters,
but maybe I
would agree that blow-boats are in a different category; I don't think
certification should be required
for, say, kayakers.

richforman

richforman

wrote:
You seem to be saying that the law should be administered on a
case-by-case
wherein we decide in the case of every individual boater

Wrong.

I am saying that *I* should not have to bear the burden of
*your* dangerous hobby.

You wanna ride around at 60 mph on PWC? That's pefectly OK.

Go ahead and do what you want. Don't crash into me, and
don't require *me* to take a course to learn safe boating,
when I've already been boating safely for decades, just
because hundreds of other people with boats like yours crash
into other boats ( & swimmers & docks & each other).

That seems very simple, logical, straight forward, and fair.


.... I still don't think the
burden is that onerous.


Well, why does your opinion control my life?




Maybe you're just saying that there should be a distinction made
between sailors and
power-boaters.

Why shouldn't there be?

When was the last time another boater, or swimmer, was
killed by high speed collision with a sailboat?



.... I don't think
certification should be required
for, say, kayakers.


Why not?

Why not require a license for swimming, too?

DSK

In article .com,
wrote:

You seem to be saying that the law should be administered on a
case-by-case
wherein we decide in the case of every individual boater whether or not
they
have the pre-existing skills and experience to just get out of having
the take the class.

Seems ridiculous to me and I just don't see what the big deal is. You
say the 8-hour
course is "a burden on my time that I do not have now," but then
describe yourself
(stating the obvious) as a recreational sailor, so this would be the
equivalent of one good
day on the water you might have to give up. I still don't think the
burden is that onerous.

Maybe you're just saying that there should be a distinction made
between sailors and
power-boaters. I don't know that I disagree vehemently with that, I
think the licensing is
an excellent idea for pwc'ers and all other power-boaters, and the
proof is in the pudding in
the accident statistics states where these laws have already been
booked. Lives have been
saved, the water is safer overall in those places, I think it's well
worth it.

If we just passed a law prohibiting any recreational power vessel from
exceeding 10 knots, the problem (and PWC's) would go away. Accident
stats would show a huge drop.

Hey, Rich, if it saves one life, it's worth it......

BTW, did you ever figure out what kinetic energy was, and why a PWC was
a lot more dangerous than a 16' sailing dinghy? No?

PDW

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

You seem to be saying that the law should be administered on a
case-by-case
wherein we decide in the case of every individual boater whether or not
they
have the pre-existing skills and experience to just get out of having
the take the class.

Seems ridiculous to me and I just don't see what the big deal is. You
say the 8-hour
course is "a burden on my time that I do not have now," but then
describe yourself
(stating the obvious) as a recreational sailor, so this would be the
equivalent of one good
day on the water you might have to give up. I still don't think the
burden is that onerous.

Maybe you're just saying that there should be a distinction made
between sailors and
power-boaters. I don't know that I disagree vehemently with that, I
think the licensing is
an excellent idea for pwc'ers and all other power-boaters, and the
proof is in the pudding in
the accident statistics states where these laws have already been
booked. Lives have been
saved, the water is safer overall in those places, I think it's well
worth it.

If we just passed a law prohibiting any recreational power vessel from
exceeding 10 knots, the problem (and PWC's) would go away. Accident
stats would show a huge drop.

Hey, Rich, if it saves one life, it's worth it......


I don't really see this "slippery slope" type argument. Seems to me
there is a difference between outlawing any activities (which you
sarcastically suggest here), which no one is talking about here, and
trying to assure that people who do them have been instructed in the
basics of doing them safely for the benefit of everybody sharing the
waters.

BTW, did you ever figure out what kinetic energy was, and why a PWC was
a lot more dangerous than a 16' sailing dinghy? No?


What do you mean, I already conceded that sailboats are far less
dangerous than power boats.

Hey do any of you guys have anything against the pwc's that are
frequently used as the vessel of choice by law enforcement deams in
rescue operations, as in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and in
many other cases.

Anybody read the article in the last Boat US issue about pwcs' place in
the boating world these days? Old prejudicial stereotypes against
these types of boats and their operators are going to continue to go by
the wayside fast. Park after national park are pulling back on
restricitve bans against pwc as results from environmental impact
analyses come in and confirm that pwc's are as clean and quiet and
non-intrusive to the environment, as any other kind of powerboat being
made, and more so than most; accident, violation and injury statistics
will continue to fall as more areas insist on education new entrants to
the sport (or recreational hobby) - and in areas where only pwc'ers
have to get certified, well, they'll be among the most informed (and
probably best-attituded) group among newbie boaters.

I know it's all baloney and can't let myself get upset over the
anti-pwc comments (although it's tough) because I know I'm on the water
every weekend eight months of the year and encounter NONE of that nasty
insulting attitude or comments except right here on usenet.

richforman

PDW

wrote:

I know it's all baloney and can't let myself get upset over the
anti-pwc comments (although it's tough) because I know I'm on the water
every weekend eight months of the year and encounter NONE of that nasty
insulting attitude or comments except right here on usenet.

you don't "encounter" the nasty comments because your PWC is so friggin
loud you can't hear us sailors swearing at you when you fly into the
quiet anchorage we've found...and then hang around...and do circles
around us...over and over again....ahhh what fun! and when we give you
that special wave, you know the one that says "you're Number 1"...you
still don't leave...must be the exhaust fumes

That's where you're wrong, on all those points. You are really
ignorant. My four-stroke
pwc is extremely quiet, as are all the new 4-strokes which is about I
don't know, 90% of
the market these days. EXTREMELY QUIET, among the quietest and
CLEANEST-RUNNING
boats being made, those are the FACTS. I know the difference and the
truth because I rode
the 2-strokes for a bunch of years and know all about the noise levels
those used to make. On
the 4-stroke my wife and I can talk to each other as we ride together
without raising our voices,
cruising at speed. The only sound you hear riding these boats is the
splash of the water against the hull.

There are NO EXHAUST FUMES coming from my 'ski, just admit that you
have no idea what you are talking about (as far as NEW, CURRENT
machines that have been the norm for the last five years).
4-stroke...do you get it? Doesn't burn oil? NO FUMES, NO BURNING OIL?
Admit that you're WRONG, DON'T know
what the F**CK you're talking about, and that your statements about MY
riding and MY pwc and MY Firends and MY life are FALSE, IGNORANT,
INACCURATE, INSULTING wihtout knowing ANYTHING about what happens when
I go out riding my boat.

I don't fly around quiet anchorages and neither do any of the other
people I ride with. Like any responsible
boater I slow down to idle in an anchorage or past a marina, or idle up
to the beach to sit on blankets and have lunch with my wife, just like
any other recreational boater would do. I never "run circles around
anybody" because I have much better things to do , like all-day
long-distance cruises that involve knowledge, smarts, research,
preparation just like ANY BOATER needs, except most bigger-boaters do
NOT go on the kind of long-distance adventuress that my pwc friends and
I do every weekend. Let me know when you can go 130 miles on about 40
bucks' worth of gas and take advantage of it by going on long-distance
explorations all the time.....then tell me how I'm not a real boater,
not as good somehow as you you ****in' asshole, sorry for MY attitude
but YOU started it with the insults and LIES about (by implication)
myself, my wife, my children and many of my friends!!!!!!

You are wrong, I should know what kind of attitudes I encounter on the
water, on the docks, on the beaches, that of respect and camaraderie
from all my fellow boaters with whom I share a love of the water, the
outdoors, the sunshine, and BOATING, regardless of what size or shape
boat somebody chooses to enjoy.
I interact with fellow boaters every weekend day out there, eight
months out of the year, how often do you get out and for how many
hours?, and ONLY get pleasantness and the basic bond that all boaters
share except around here on the newsgroup. People are impressed and
surprised when they hear how far we've come from when we go (with my
wife or friends) on long-distance overnight cruises and trips, and when
they see how much storage and fuel-efficiency my boat offers, what can
you say, of course they like it. When people see the mapping gps'
mounted to our handlebars that we use to plan and navigate
long-distance trips, or hear that my wife and I, say, have been on the
'ski all day and have ridden maybe 100 or 150 miles, and are none the
worse for the wear and tear, they realize that their preconceptions
about pwc's and what they're used for and who rides them, might be a
little inaccurate. Of course to that they have to have an open enough
mind to admit that they don't know everything and were wrong about some
things.


I know I'm blithering like an idiot, but damn it prodigal, you're wrong
and I wish you'd admit it on thiese points:
my boat isn't loud AT ALL, it's VERY QUIET compared to almost any other
powerboat you could find
it has no exhaust fumes
I don't run circles
I don't buzz boats or fly through anchorages
....and therefore this proves that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING
ABOUT.


I'm a perfectly worthy, respectable member of the boating world, I have
as much right to be on the water or in an anchorage or at a dock or
right here in the newsgroup as you or anybody, as long as I obey the
rules, operate safely, am courteous to my fellow boaters, etc., and I
AM, and so is EVERY OTHER PWC ENTHUSIAST I KNOW and I KNOW A LOT OF
'EM, we are EVERY BIT AS MUCH BOATERS as ANYONE ELSE.

Well, anyway I had a good start to my season, did you start yours yet?,
last Sunday my friend and I left from Hempstead Harbor, took the Long
Island Sound to the Harlem River, popped out on the Hudson, cruised
along the West side of Manhattan then under the Verezanno, around
Staten Island clockwise then finished a figure-eight by taking the East
River back to Hells gate and back to our ramp, about 125 miles without
fueling up (using about 18 gallons or regular 87 gas apiece), we saw a
dolphin swimming in the Arthur Kill to my extreme surprise, and watched
a huge crane the likes of which I hadn't seen before do routine
dredging on a channel elsewhere in the waterway....anybody do anything
like that on a bigger boat last weekend? ANyway, we interacted with
plenty of people on other boats, at the ramps and docks during the day,
and like I said (and you tried to lie away) didn't get any kind of
negative anti-pwc prejudiced attitude from ANYBODY, that only happens
RIGHT HERE from pompous blowhards like yourself.

Our next ride planned is Easter weekend, an overnight run from Jones
Beach to South Jersey, probably cruise at least to Atlantic City then
back to Long Beach Island where we'll tying up and staying overnight
and cruising back the next day. I have ridden pwc's to the Bahamas
(that's right, TO the Bahamas and back); up and down the entire
FLorida Keys from Ft. Lauderdale over a week; always going from Long
Island to Block Island or Wethersfield, Ct, or Newport, RI for
overnight trips; from Northport, LI to Albany and back in a day; I
want to know, does any of this sound like it conforms to your
prejudiced, stereotyped, outdated notions of pwc riding and what pwc
riders do with their boats? Does it sound like I'll be busy flying
through anchorages, spewing fumes or "doing circles," and if you can
see that none of that is the case, then will you admit that you were
wrong about me, and my boating lifestyle, apologize humbly to me and
maybe think about updating some of your old-fashioned notions....or
will you just dig in?

to sum up:
NOT LOUD
NO FUMES
NO CIRCLES
NO FLYING AROUND ANCHORAGES
GET ALONG FANTASTICALLY WITH ALL FELLOW BOATERS
YOU'RE WRONG ON ALL COUNTS
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT
....AND YOU"RE OBNOXIOUS TO HAVE SAID THOSE THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE
WITHOUT KNOWING
ANYTHING ABOUT ME, BASED ON PREJUDICES RESTING SOLELY ON THE KIND OF
BOAT I OWN.

Sorry.

richforman

Peter Wiley wrote:
If we just passed a law prohibiting any recreational power vessel from
exceeding 10 knots, the problem (and PWC's) would go away. Accident
stats would show a huge drop.

Hey, Rich, if it saves one life, it's worth it......

....

New Hampshire considered and then rejected a bill that would set a 45
MPH daytime speed limit, 25 MPH at night. They would rather Live Free
and Die.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/p...3/1221/48HOURS

On 3 Apr 2006 10:50:55 -0700, wrote:

all of us more responsible,
informed, thinking riders

Both of them, where ever they may be.

Much as I dislike PeeWCs and most of the people who ride them, I am
very, very reluctant to get the government involved in another aspect
of our sport.

Once the camel gets its nose into the tent it is very difficult to get
it out.