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#31
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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How Long ???
"Wayne.B" wrote
You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing .... Sheesh! No wonder people like me have to give up flying, doctors have to give up practicing medicine, we're all paying through the nose for insurance. For cripes sake! Buying a boat is something you as an adult take responsibility for. Everything that may go wrong isn't someone else's fault. The survey report is just a guide to your judgement to be backed up and utilized with all the other information available. You ultimately are captain of the process. The surveyor is like an aid to navigation. It's still your responsibility to see that the boat gets where it's going without running aground even if the buoy drifted out of position, the channel was located on the chart from a 1890 datum, the channel shoaled, the third mate forgot to fill the day tank, the compass wasn't adjusted properly, etc, etc. I can't believe that people who profess to be ready to go out and be masters of vessels are filling this newsgroup with this whining. (Wayne, I know you probably actually agree with this but I'm just taking you wording as a soapbox to jump up on.) -- Roger Long |
#32
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 21:38:21 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing .... Sheesh! No wonder people like me have to give up flying, doctors have to give up practicing medicine, we're all paying through the nose for insurance. ======================== I didn't say it was a good recourse, and certainly not one to be taken lightly, but it is just about your only option if somthing truly major pops up - sort of like the wings falling off your new plane as it takes off for the first time. :-) |
#33
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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New planes, that's a different matter. When it comes to old planes,
even a few weeks old, there is a principle in aviation regulations that is far more true of boats than most of us realize. If the wings fall off the plane, it's the fault of the pilot. The pilot is captain of the aircraft. Just like the captain of a ship, he (or she) was supposed to have been aware enough of how the maintenance was being conducted to be sure that the bolts the hold the wings on were tightened. If he knows he has a great maintenance crew, he may responsibly let it go at that. If he knows that the company has hired a bunch of jerks, he should go look at the bolts himself. This isn't always fair. If a ship loses it's steering and goes up on the rocks because someone in the black gang didn't grease the steering gear, it's the captain's fault. True, the captain can't be expected to go down and check the greasing of every piece of equipment but he's supposed to be aware enough of the quality of his crew and exercise enough oversight of the staff in the chain of command that he can be sure that stuff is getting done. RESPONSIBILITY MEANS THAT SOMEONE CAN LET YOU DOWN THROUGH NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN AND IT'S STILL YOUR FAULT! If you don't like it, get another hobby. Stamp collecting is nice and relaxing. A surveyor may really screw you up but evaluating the surveyor and the quality of his work is part of your job as a boat owner. He works for you. You are his boss and his supervisor. You are buying a boat. You are going to be captain of it and that responsibility starts when you decide to buy it. You may not know enough to fully fulfil these responsibilities but, welcome to real life, you are NEVER going to know enough and have enough experience to carry the responsibilities given you with complete confidence that nothing will happen. The whole damn society is falling apart because nobody will take goddamn responsibility for anything anymore. That's why I flew planes and sail boats. Because, when I accept that complete responsibility and hold my fate in my hands (along with anybody foolish enough to tag along) I'm truly alive. -- Roger Long "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 21:38:21 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing .... Sheesh! No wonder people like me have to give up flying, doctors have to give up practicing medicine, we're all paying through the nose for insurance. ======================== I didn't say it was a good recourse, and certainly not one to be taken lightly, but it is just about your only option if somthing truly major pops up - sort of like the wings falling off your new plane as it takes off for the first time. :-) |
#34
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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How Long ???
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 00:21:51 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: All I can say is that I know of at least one case where it has been done very successfully in way, way, less time than I've been following your posts on the subject. Heh. Fair winds, Roger. R. |
#35
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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My wife & I were
very serious about buying a trawler that turned out to have been sunk. Wayne.B wrote: And of course the seller just sort of forgot to tell you... I don't think he forgot, but I think he didn't know the whole story... in fact I think 'deliberate ignorance' would cover his approach, since he is not required to disclose what he doesn't "know." Actually the shiftiness of the broker was already setting off alarm bells. This boat did sell, two or three years later. I sometimes wonder who bought it. My biggest concern is that the surveyor will miss a major problem that doesn't surface until after the deal has closed. You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing the surveyor, seller and broker but it will take a long time to resolve and in the end you may collect nothing. I don't think the surveyor is liable, quite frankly. If there was something major and that would be extremely obvious to a competent professional, you might take a swing at it. Another thing is, most people are already reluctant to pay a surveyor for a full day of inspecting. And most people are more interested in whether the hot water works. So if you don't write a blank check & say, "take as much time as you need to thoroughly inspect absolutely every single thing on the boat," then the surveyor can rightfully say that the buyer did not cover his bets. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
#36
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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How Long ???
The surveyor is also just a more (very important word "more")
knowledgable person. He is not psychic. If he was, he would be making millions on Wall Street instead of crawling around the bilges of old boats. The surveyor is also struggling against the fact that, if he did the job every buyer wants him to do, he wouldn't get enough work to stay in business. It's the same kind of bind many professions are in. The airline pilot isn't supposed to endanger his passengers by flying in very bad weather but the dispatcher is telling him, "If you don't take this flight, we'll find someone who will." Most survey referrals come from brokers and boatyards who like to see boats move. My brief surveying career came to an end because I thought the owner should end up with a complete list and plan for the first couple of years of upgrades and fixes. My goal was the the buyer have no surprises during the honeymoon period. I'd say, "This is a great boat, here are the things it needs done." The yardowner would come out screaming, "You trashed a perfectly good boat. Don't expect me to recommend you again." In the sunken boat case, forget about suing the surveyor. Your job as a boat buyer was to hire someone competent. You screwed up. Picking the right surveyor is actually harder than picking the right boat. However, if you find an obvious scum line in the boat, start asking around, and someone tells you that the surveyor was onboard just after it was raised and he was recommended by the yard that raised it, it might be worth pursuing. You've got to have some evidence of intentional wrongdoing or utter incompetence; not just something missed. Otherwise, you will just be one of the people pushing us closer to the day when boating will be like aviation and a lot of other things, there either won't be any surveyors or surveys will cost $5000 for a 30 foot boat to cover the surveyor's malpractice insurance. -- Roger Long "DSK" wrote in message ... My wife & I were very serious about buying a trawler that turned out to have been sunk. Wayne.B wrote: And of course the seller just sort of forgot to tell you... I don't think he forgot, but I think he didn't know the whole story... in fact I think 'deliberate ignorance' would cover his approach, since he is not required to disclose what he doesn't "know." Actually the shiftiness of the broker was already setting off alarm bells. This boat did sell, two or three years later. I sometimes wonder who bought it. My biggest concern is that the surveyor will miss a major problem that doesn't surface until after the deal has closed. You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing the surveyor, seller and broker but it will take a long time to resolve and in the end you may collect nothing. I don't think the surveyor is liable, quite frankly. If there was something major and that would be extremely obvious to a competent professional, you might take a swing at it. Another thing is, most people are already reluctant to pay a surveyor for a full day of inspecting. And most people are more interested in whether the hot water works. So if you don't write a blank check & say, "take as much time as you need to thoroughly inspect absolutely every single thing on the boat," then the surveyor can rightfully say that the buyer did not cover his bets. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
#37
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:34:36 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: You've got to have some evidence of intentional wrongdoing or utter incompetence; not just something missed. Otherwise, you will just be one of the people pushing us closer to the day when boating will be like aviation and a lot of other things, there either won't be any surveyors or surveys will cost $5000 for a 30 foot boat to cover the surveyor's malpractice insurance. All valid points of course. My statement was made primarily to highlight the limited amount of recourse available, not to recommend a specific course of action. |
#38
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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I wasn't really responding to anyone in particular (especially Doug).
Just trying to stick a finger in the collapsing levees of common sense and decency that surround our society. -- Roger Long "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:34:36 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote: You've got to have some evidence of intentional wrongdoing or utter incompetence; not just something missed. Otherwise, you will just be one of the people pushing us closer to the day when boating will be like aviation and a lot of other things, there either won't be any surveyors or surveys will cost $5000 for a 30 foot boat to cover the surveyor's malpractice insurance. All valid points of course. My statement was made primarily to highlight the limited amount of recourse available, not to recommend a specific course of action. |
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