Ironically, Bob imagines a time in the future when a cat might be the
best match for his needs.


Thanks for keeping this thread civil, Jeff :-)
In the real world I can fully understand and appreciate the clear
advantages that a 36 foot Cat has over my boat. And I'm sure you can
see my side as well regarding the "fun factor" aspect. But for cruising
and spending long periods aboard, the Cat is a clear winner if you can
meet the price point. I have an open mind about it. You buy what suits
your situation, and sometimes passion (such as mine for a slender
tender hull) can injure a cruisers dreams in a very obvious way.
As I said, if we start looking at a part-time home on the water, a 40
foot Cat is a great compromise vs. a 50 or even 60 foot mono.

RB
Beneteau First 35s5 http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/index.html
NY

Since it appears to be "common knowledge" that cruising cats capsize
frequently, perhaps you can give us a few examples.

The truth is, it is a very uncommon event.


About as uncommon as monohulls rolling & sinking?


Jeff wrote:
I've often wondered about this - some writers simply hand wave that the
chances are roughly equal. My vote would be for avoiding the situation.


Definitely agreed!



However, you have to add to the monohull side of the ledger the number
of sinkings from other causes.


Agreed again, and while the chances are small (the
overwhelming number of sinkings are at the dock) IMHO it
strengthens the argument in favor of positive flotation.

...

I might guess that more cruising fatalities are from falling
overboard than from sinking or capsizing. This would imply that the
more stable platform is safer.


Good point, I wonder how the man overboard statistics compare between
mono- & multi-hulls.


I know of one well publicized case of a racer falling through the
netting.
...

I bet that strained his relationship...

I've fallen off, but not thru. I've also fallen on a
crossbeam, which was a big "ouch."

What I really hate about mesh tramps is the way wave
pattersn will unpredictably reinforce themselves between the
hulls, so that crossing a small unobtrusive wake suddenly &
erratically gives a jet of cold spray right up your pants.
Not a problem on bigger cats with solid decks, but you hear
the thumping once in a while....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Interesting perspectives and civil to boot.

I really think if you know the type of sailing you plan to do the right boat
will jump out at you.

If all we (my wife and I) wanted to sail were the East Coast and Caribbean
we would most likely sail a cat. We want to sail across the pond and feel
the mono is safer and more comfortable for that application.

The cat is built with a hatch in the bottom for a reason, they do flip. Not
a problem if there is someone to get you before you get washed off.

Certainly roominess goes to the cat. Cost to purchase goes to the mono.
Speeds are comparable. You can make a lists that go on and on.

In the end you will buy what you want and defend that decision because you
want to validate the decision you made. I include myself in that statement.

Bryan


"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ironically, Bob imagines a time in the future when a cat might be the
best match for his needs.


Thanks for keeping this thread civil, Jeff :-)
In the real world I can fully understand and appreciate the clear
advantages that a 36 foot Cat has over my boat. And I'm sure you can
see my side as well regarding the "fun factor" aspect. But for cruising
and spending long periods aboard, the Cat is a clear winner if you can
meet the price point. I have an open mind about it. You buy what suits
your situation, and sometimes passion (such as mine for a slender
tender hull) can injure a cruisers dreams in a very obvious way.
As I said, if we start looking at a part-time home on the water, a 40
foot Cat is a great compromise vs. a 50 or even 60 foot mono.

RB
Beneteau First 35s5 http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/index.html
NY

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
I guess most people prefer to be upside-down-but-floating compared to
upright-on-the-bottom of the Atlantic. The next question though, is what
are
chances of such events to happen? When I cross the Atlantic (or whatever
waters) I rather opt for a 1% chance to sink my monohull (and trust on my
liferaft) than a 20% chance of capsizing my cat. Now, both figures are
probably
far from accurate, so my question is, what are chances that such things
will
happen?

Regards,
Marc
www.marineyacht.com

The only published figure that I have ever seen for risk was in Chris
White's book- The Cruising Multihull. He quotes mortality figures from the
US coastguard over a 10 year period and tries to interpret mono and multi
separately. Thus, while not capsize versus sinking, it was an attempt to
look at overall risk. His estimate is one death per year per 16,500 multis
compared to one per year per 12,500 monos.

He admits the figures are not rock solid.

Overall though it points to very low and equivalent risk in either hullform.

Peter HK

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Peter HK wrote:


"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
One question nobody has addressed yet is what happens when a cat
capsizes? There
is no natural righting moment, as with a mono hull. I have never even
sailed on a cat
myself, but the heeling of a mono hull seems to offer some comfort
advantages, because the combination of sails and pendulum keel act as a
kind of 'shock absorber' in wavy conditions. I would prefer to be
heeled over and on a steady lean than bounced up and down as one than
another hull is lifted and dropped by a wave, especially in
short choppy seas. Long rolling waves would probably somewhat nullify
this advantage. I am referring more to waves on the beam, but there
probably is some
effect on a close hauled tack.

Sherwin D.

There are occasional sea patterns that are uncomfortable on a multi,
usually
with beam seas, but the magnitude of the event needs to be considered.
Cats
reach max stability at about 5 degrees of heel (when a hull lifts). As
this
never happens on cruising cats, all heel angles are less than 5 degrees.
Short sharp waves can occasionally exceed this a little due to the hulls
being in a trough and crest. Compare to a mono rolling downwind where
heel
angles can be 30 degrees side to side.

Multis do have a different motion- shorter and sharper compared to slower
but much more amplitude on a mono.
Personally I find it quite comfortable. As stated in a previous post a
glass
never spills, which is a significant observation on the severity of the
motion.

When a multi capsizes it floats- most are now equipped with hatches to
enter
a secure part of the hull in a capsize. When a mono sinks however-
dragged
down by that ballast that makes it self-righting- the only hope is a
liferaft.

It depends on what you think is the most basic safety feature-
nonsinkability or self righting.

Peter HK

I guess most people prefer to be upside-down-but-floating compared to
upright-on-the-bottom of the Atlantic. The next question though, is what
are
chances of such events to happen? When I cross the Atlantic (or whatever
waters) I rather opt for a 1% chance to sink my monohull (and trust on my
liferaft) than a 20% chance of capsizing my cat. Now, both figures are
probably
far from accurate, so my question is, what are chances that such things
will
happen?

Regards,
Marc
www.marineyacht.com

I don't think I recall hearing about any cruising cats that have capsized.
Where are you getting 20% or even 5%?


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In the end you will buy what you want and defend that decision because
you
want to validate the decision you made. I include myself in that
statement.


Well said, Bryan and certainly true. Anytime you feel bored with
civility and intelligence feel welcome to join the Sailing fools Parade
at Alt.sailing.asa. There you'll find some of these same discussions as
well, though you'll have to wade through a lot of nasty insults (all
for fun some would say) to get to the meat of most topics.


RB
Beneteau First 35s5
NY

Thanks but I think I'll pass on that. : )

Bryan

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
In the end you will buy what you want and defend that decision because
you
want to validate the decision you made. I include myself in that
statement.


Well said, Bryan and certainly true. Anytime you feel bored with
civility and intelligence feel welcome to join the Sailing fools Parade
at Alt.sailing.asa. There you'll find some of these same discussions as
well, though you'll have to wade through a lot of nasty insults (all
for fun some would say) to get to the meat of most topics.


RB
Beneteau First 35s5
NY

"Capt" Rob wrote:
.... Anytime you feel bored with
civility and intelligence feel welcome to join the Sailing fools Parade
at Alt.sailing.asa. There you'll find some of these same discussions as
well, though you'll have to wade through a lot of nasty insults

90% of which are from one source, it should be noted.

BTW if you want to call yourself "Captain" why don't you
explain to the nice folks in this newsgroup how you became a
captain.

DSK

Bryan wrote:
Interesting perspectives and civil to boot.

We'll see what we can do about that.


I really think if you know the type of sailing you plan to do the right boat
will jump out at you.

If all we (my wife and I) wanted to sail were the East Coast and Caribbean
we would most likely sail a cat. We want to sail across the pond and feel
the mono is safer and more comfortable for that application.

Comfort is very subjective, but safety is not. There's absolutely no
evidence that monohulls are safer. On the contrary, for a variety of
reasons, cats are a lot safer than monohulls.

I'm not sure my PDQ would be my first choice for an Atlantic crossing,
but they've done it. A large number of them have been to Bermuda
because a few of the old owners do an annual rendezvous there, and one
of the charter companies delivered through Bermuda. A Prout (with a
very conservative rig) might be a better choice for the passage, but
then you'd give up some performance in your local cruising. Of
course, you have the same compromises in monohulls.


The cat is built with a hatch in the bottom for a reason, they do flip.

Actually, most cats don't have the hatch, because, contrary to "urban
legend," cruising cats don't flip. OK, they've flipped a few times.

But, I challenge you to find even a single link to where a modern
production cruising cat capsized while being cruised. Invariably,
you'll find the story was about a racing cat (or more likely a tri),
or a homemade or archaic design.

BTW, consider that virtually every carter cat in the Caribbean sailed
there on its own bottom, mostly from France and South Africa.

Not
a problem if there is someone to get you before you get washed off.

Washed off? I think I'd poke the epirb and wait down below for a
while. Meanwhile, I'd thank my lucky stars that I didn't have a
monohull, which at this point would likely be headed toward the bottom.



Certainly roominess goes to the cat. Cost to purchase goes to the mono.
Speeds are comparable. You can make a lists that go on and on.

true for roominess and cost. Speed depends on how you measure it - by
the foot cats are faster, by the dollar maybe not. By the sail area
that must be handled, cats are definitely faster. But if you like
gensets and A/C's, the cat can lose any advantage.


In the end you will buy what you want and defend that decision because you
want to validate the decision you made. I include myself in that statement.

me too.


Bryan


"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ironically, Bob imagines a time in the future when a cat might be the
best match for his needs.


Thanks for keeping this thread civil, Jeff :-)
In the real world I can fully understand and appreciate the clear
advantages that a 36 foot Cat has over my boat. And I'm sure you can
see my side as well regarding the "fun factor" aspect. But for cruising
and spending long periods aboard, the Cat is a clear winner if you can
meet the price point. I have an open mind about it. You buy what suits
your situation, and sometimes passion (such as mine for a slender
tender hull) can injure a cruisers dreams in a very obvious way.
As I said, if we start looking at a part-time home on the water, a 40
foot Cat is a great compromise vs. a 50 or even 60 foot mono.

RB
Beneteau First 35s5 http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/index.html
NY

90% of which are from one source, it should be noted.

BTW if you want to call yourself "Captain" why don't you



Look up the word Captain, Doug. You might also ask the Coast Guard
exactly what a captain is. Here's a hint. It does not have to involve a
license. I think plenty of people here know who we are and may even
know that you no longer sail and have a trawler, but I won't engage in
any nonsense here since this is a real group.
You're welcome to fire away....I won't fire back. Have fun.

RB
35s5
NY