"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
I would also if I could afford it... :-) Actually, in the bay, I like
the
heel of the mono. I'm just not sure I want to do that again for days
on
end.



If I only could go back to "the bay" and SF once more. Been there a
few
years
ago with my wife. What a truly great city!!

Where are you now?


The Netherlands

Ah, I've got some friends over there... near Laren.

Very nice area!
--
MarineYacht Yacht Charters
http://www.marineyacht.com

Now all I have to do is visit them... never have! I'll be in England in
April/May, but I don't know if we'll have an opportunity to get across. I
believe they have a wooden boat... keep it on some lake that changed names
because it is now part of something else? Is marineyacht.com your business?
We're thinking about booking something in 2007... I know, a long way off.
:-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...






Why would you be unable to get yourself out of trouble if you're fairly
secure in a hull?

Picture a multihull in the middle of the ocean, capsized, and the crew
huddled inside the hull. At best they have turned on an EPIRB, and at
worst, they would be difficult to spot being inverted and hopefully
found
before they succumb.

Then picture a monohull which has rolled over. At worst, they are
dismasted
and have to try an rig some kind of temporary sail, or call for help.
At
best,
they can recover enough to continue sailing.

I think I would go with the second option.



When a mono sinks however- dragged
down by that ballast that makes it self-righting- the only hope is a
liferaft.

The natural stability configuration is for the monohull to self-right,
which
it should do fairly quickly. I would take my chances on this boat
righting
itself.



Any boat that fills with water is going to sink. The idea about mono
hulls
is that
they will right themselves before the boat fills with water.

Not completely true, as most modern cats will not sink. Of course, never
is
an absolute, so I suppose it's possible though remotely so.

It depends on what you think is the most basic safety feature-
nonsinkability or self righting.

I prefer the self righting. At least I have a chance to recover and
continue

sailing, in that case. If it sinks, then the life raft is your
backup.

Many who sail cats don't carry a liferaft, because the cat or tri is the
liferaft.

For far offshore cruising, this is crazy.



Now I'm not claiming that a multi is the end all and be all of safety at
sea, but most of the time, the prime consideration is crew durability,
not
boat durability. Crews get tired on a boat that's heeled all the time for
long distances. Tired crew make more mistakes.

If the crew is not up to it, they should stick with close shore sailing
or
buy a houseboat.



Well, you're certainly not a licensed captain.

Nothing I have said so far would indicate that is the case. Are you
a licensed captain, and are you using that to prove your case?

I suppose you can call
yourself whatever you want, but the typical definition is licensed by the
USCG or other authority.

I'm not an licensed captain, but I have made several cruises in the
Atlantic
and the Mediterranean in some pretty difficult conditions. Some of
these
so called licensed captains never get much past the harbor entrance.
Since
I do not take passengers on my boat, there is no need to have a license.
I
am also a graduate engineer in Mechanics, so I know something about
stability.


You do have a valid point. However, I believe this thing actually did happen
on a multi... can't seem to find the reference... somewhere off Venesuela.
If I do, I'll post it. The crew was in an inverted multi for weeks, no epirb
apparently, until they finally washed up on the beach. The local authorities
didn't believe them at first because they were in such good shape.

Have you ever been inside a mono that has dismasted? (Neither have I) But, I
have read reports that described it as being inside a washing machine with
sharp objects and heavy blunt instrumets flying around. Totally
uninhabitable. Don't think that you can just carry on after a dismasting.

For example, we had a dismasting (rig failure) on a Catalina 27 in the SF
bay. The rig had to be cut away. The boat then motored under supervision by
the CG to its home port. It was very, very rolly and difficult to control
the boat.

It can take minutes to right a capsized mono, especially if there's a lot of
water in it.

Not carrying a liferaft on a multi is actually pretty common. I wouldn't
carry one. I would take a dinghy, but that's a different animal.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
sherwindu wrote:




Why would you be unable to get yourself out of trouble if you're fairly
secure in a hull?


Picture a multihull in the middle of the ocean, capsized, and the crew
huddled inside the hull. At best they have turned on an EPIRB, and at
worst, they would be difficult to spot being inverted and hopefully
found
before they succumb.

Its hard to picture because its happened so infrequently. There have been
several such inversions, but I don't recall ever hearing of one where the
occupants succumbed while waiting. There have been a few cases of people
living for extended periods waiting to be rescued.

There was one case of a man who died of diabetic shock, but the rest of
his crew was rescued, and several monohulls were lost without a trace in
the same storm.



Then picture a monohull which has rolled over. At worst, they are
dismasted
and have to try an rig some kind of temporary sail, or call for help.
At
best,
they can recover enough to continue sailing.

I think I would go with the second option.


I think you have a typo. At _best_ they are only dismasted and suffered no
other damage. At worst, they have structural damage caused by the
dismasting, or the loose mast whacking they hull. If the hatch was not
watertight, they probably took in a lot a water, so the buoyancy is
reduced, and its hard to find any leaks, and the pumps may not be working.
Even a small leak would doom the monohull; a 2 inch hole floods about 100
gals a minute! The crew will be demanding to get into the liferaft, which
is probably the most dangerous thing of all.

And this is assuming that the boat doesn't stay inverted for a while, not
out of the question with some boats.




When a mono sinks however- dragged
down by that ballast that makes it self-righting- the only hope is a
liferaft.


The natural stability configuration is for the monohull to self-right,
which
it should do fairly quickly. I would take my chances on this boat
righting
itself.

The natural stability configuration is upright, on the bottom. Does the
phrase "lost without a trace" have a familiar ring to it?

When we had the dismasting on the bay, the CG would not even approach until
the skipper cut the mast/rigging away. I'm wondering what they would have
done if the boat had not had bolt cutters.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
ink.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote:
I can only think of a few reasons why cruising cats are not popular
around here.

1. Most people on the East Coast buy cruising cats for cruising to
the Caribbean. Californians don't have a lot of islands within
a short cruising distance so a shallow draft isn't important.
Local beaches are usually crowded with surfers and swimmers.

2. Most cruising cats are built in France and the shortest route
to California is through Panama Canal whereas most monohulls
can be transported here by trucks from the East Coast.

The closest Lagoon and Fountaine Pajot dealer is in Seattle !

Not sure where is "here," but in the SF bay you will find an
increasing number of multis on the bay. I'm not a huge fan of
the Fountaine line, but that's another thread.

You're in So. Cal. I take it? Seems like that would be a great
place for multihulls, and I know I've seen a bunch when sailing
out of Long Beach and Dana Point.

I'm in San Diego but when I do a search on yachtworld.com
for used multihulls over 35' in California I only get 11 results
and these also include a couple of trimarans. If I search for
both new and used I get 23 results but many of them haven't
even been built.

I don't see any Lagoon on this list and only see 1 Catana and
1 Fountaine Pajot (with another one en route).

Using Google Earth to look at a satellite photo of Kona Kai
marina with more than 500 slips I can only see 2 catamarans
and 1 trimaran.

Ah San Diego... One of my favorite places... I went to college there. It was
hard to leave.

Do you currently own something there?

Lots of multihulls for sail don't get put on yachtworld. Have you tried
Latitude38, Craigslist, or even E-bay?

http://www.latitude38.com/

Capt. JG wrote:
....

When we had the dismasting on the bay, the CG would not even approach until
the skipper cut the mast/rigging away. I'm wondering what they would have
done if the boat had not had bolt cutters.

Approach from windward and send out a line? For coastal cruising I'd
guess its unlikely they would have proper cutters, so they must be
prepared. All of the dismastings I've witnessed have been racing boats
or small cruisers - none have had proper gear.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
...

When we had the dismasting on the bay, the CG would not even approach
until the skipper cut the mast/rigging away. I'm wondering what they
would have done if the boat had not had bolt cutters.

Approach from windward and send out a line? For coastal cruising I'd
guess its unlikely they would have proper cutters, so they must be
prepared. All of the dismastings I've witnessed have been racing boats or
small cruisers - none have had proper gear.

I don't know. The weather wasn't that bad really... 25kts, 4 ft chop. They
didn't really do much except yell on their bullhorn.

Now we have bolt cutters on all our boats! :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
I would also if I could afford it... :-) Actually, in the bay, I like
the
heel of the mono. I'm just not sure I want to do that again for days
on
end.



If I only could go back to "the bay" and SF once more. Been there a
few
years
ago with my wife. What a truly great city!!

Where are you now?


The Netherlands

Ah, I've got some friends over there... near Laren.

Very nice area!
--
MarineYacht Yacht Charters
http://www.marineyacht.com

Now all I have to do is visit them... never have! I'll be in England in
April/May, but I don't know if we'll have an opportunity to get across. I
believe they have a wooden boat... keep it on some lake that changed names
because it is now part of something else? Is marineyacht.com your business?
We're thinking about booking something in 2007... I know, a long way off.
:-)

Nice description of what's probably the IJsselmeer ("meer" is Dutch for "lake").
Until 1932, May 28 to be exactly, this used to be the Zuiderzee ("Southern
Sea"). In that year they finished a large dike to protect these waters and the
land (and Amsterdam) behind it from the open sea.

Yes, Marineyacht is my business indeed. Let me know if you need our
assistance! :-)

--
MarineYacht Yacht Charters
http://www.marineyacht.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message ...
"sherwindu" wrote in message
...






You do have a valid point. However, I believe this thing actually did happen
on a multi... can't seem to find the reference... somewhere off Venesuela.
If I do, I'll post it. The crew was in an inverted multi for weeks, no epirb
apparently, until they finally washed up on the beach. The local authorities
didn't believe them at first because they were in such good shape.


I believe you are thinking of the Rose Noelle which capsized of NZ in 1989? An official enquiry was conducted and confirmed their amazing survival. 119 days in the inverted tri.

I have John Glennie's book on it as well as one written by one of the crew. Good stories. I think the saddest part is that one of the crew who survived this and was only in his 20's died a couple of years later due to a brain tumor- talk about bad luck.

The best link I could find is
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

Peter HK

Going to the original question, my family and I have been living aboard
cruising catamarans since 1996. First a PDQ 36 and now a St Francis
44. This question comes up a lot, so I'm going to answer it as fully
as I can because I believe it's a good question that is sometimes
incompletely answered.

*Speed. Our St Francis will do around 8 knots in 11 knots of wind, at
15 knots of wind we break into double digits. Under power we can go
over 10 knots. There are faster monohulls out there, but our boat has
3 heads, a galley with 9 ft of counterspace and a 3 burner stove, an
massive arch with a dingy hanging off it. We're not trying to break
speed records, but it's a good performing boat. This is without
flying a chute.

*Stability. I don't see it actually from a comfort point of view as
much as safety. If the boat doesn't rotate 45 degrees because of
fluke wind shift it means my wife and son don't get thrown around like
rag dolls.

*N+1. This is a geek term. It means that most systems are redundant.
Two motors, two fuel tanks connecting the motors, two water tanks and
two water pumps, two seperate battery banks, etc, etc. What this
means in practical terms is you can have an engine overheat and still
make 6 knots on the remaining engine while CHOOSING where you want to
repair the fault, rather than having to do it immediately. That's a
big deal when trying to fight your way into a narrow port entrance in a
gale directly against the wind. Been through that particular scenario
several times.

*Positive bouyancy. I know quite a few different PDQ 36's out there,
and one lost both of it's keels being up on a reef. Another had it's
transom ripped off by a boat, one crashed it's bow against a bulkhead
3 feet back, and my actual boat had at one time a 2 ft hole smashed
into her from a race (previous owner!!) on her starboard side. None
sank. All are sailing now.

*Privacy with guests. It's nice having guests over, we have them
often. But they are in a seperate hull, quite on their own. It's the
equivalent of having them in a boat one slip over. It makes having
guests over twice as fun.

*Aft Arch. We can and do carry a large RIB ready to go at a moments
notice with 4 175 watt solar panels. Having a nice fat transom makes
that possible. While cruising non of the 5 monohulls we cruised with
would even bother launching their dingy's because they knew we could be
over, pick them up and have them to the beach before they could get
their own dingy ready for the water. That translates also in being
able to address a problem quickly underway. I can stop and launch a
dingy to assist another boat in just 3 or 4 minutes.

*large wide decks. I can go up forward in a hurricane with a spare
anchor in my hand and stick to the middle of the boat and know that I
wont go over the side. I can go up forward in any conditions (but I
do clip onto a jack line) and know that I have 10 ft of clearance
between myself and the side of the boat. That's a huge safety issue
to me and my wife. I saw one artical about a monohull sailor who'd
been clippen into a jackline, fell overboard from the bow and was
dragged in the water for far too long. That can't happen to me, I
can't fall on a 6 ft tether 10 ft from the middle to the side of the
boat.

*Shallow draft. Every tropical storm or hurricane that I've been in I
could head into a hurricane hole inaccessible to most monohulls. The
shallow draft anchorage also means that I typically can go to a close
beach with my dingy in shallow protected water.
Big issue there that no one seems to realize. In Georgetown in the
bahamas I was able to anchor in a huge storm in a very small protected
anchorage right outside town in 4 feet of water. No one else could
get into town, I could simply row a few feet to the beach and walk in.

*Good visibility from inside. I can on the settee, warm and snug at
an anchorage, and look out and see what boats are breaking free from a
storm. Sitting in your cockpit during a storm as an anchor watch is
relatively uncomfortable, and many people therefore don't do it as much
as they should and the first sign of a problem is the thud of a boat
hitting them that's broken free.

*Cost. Our St Francis has the space of a 50 ft mono, but not the
costs. Price per foot may be greater on most cat's then most
monohulls, but price per ft of interior living space is often less.

*twin short keels. It allows us to "walk" off a beach and easily
kedge ourselves back into the water should we drag onto the shore (ok,
not too proud to admit that). But imagine having dragged anchor in the
middle of the night. In a monohull you'd be woken up by the fact they
you are lying completely on your side with waves threatening to wash
into your cockpit and down the companionway. At best, you would call
sea tow. I woke up, perfectly upright, realized the soft mud didn't
hold my anchor, and lowered the dingy and kedged myself off the bar in
about 15 minutes. My wife prepared breakfast while I did that.

*Most catamaran thru hulls are above the waterline. I've seen too
many monohulls sink because a hose fitting for their sinks came loose
during the night. I've also had my hose fittings also come loose on
my galley sink drain, and had to tighten them again. That's it. No
water rushing in, no panics. Many monohulls have a dozen or more thru
hulls. I have less than half of their below water thru hulls, and
were a thru hull to come loose, it's not as low in the water because
the water intakes don't have to be extra low to compensate for heeling.
That means far less water pressure, therefore less water coming in,
and my bilge pumps can easily keep up. Even if they couldn't
watertight bulkheads would prevent it from spreading very far and worse
case after around 2 ft the positive flotation in the bow and stern
would prevent the boat from going any further down. Not nice, but it
wouldn't sink.

*Capsizing - Some believe that the monohull ability to heel to dump a
gust of wind gives them an advantage because the catamaran can't heel.
True, cat's don't heel. We accelerate. That's the way catamarans
have the same "pressure valve" for dumping unexpected gusts, we can't
heel, therefore the force is directed into motion forward. That's the
safety valve. I've been in the gulf stream in November, in large
waves and trade winds down in the caribbean, I go fast. While going
fast I can take my time and reef the sails without worrying about
falling over the rails. I think the reason this keeps coming up is
that every serious cruiser in a monohull has had a knock down and that
fear is very present in their minds. I've been in the same wind gusts
on a monohull and a catamaran. The monohull was knocked down and then
righted itself, the catamaran just went faster. We do tend to
compensate for this by sailing more by the numbers than a monohull
would (reef at 20 knots, reef again at 30 knots, even if it feels
completely under control).

I hope this helps some who are looking at catamarans. Almost every
reason I have isn't due to convenience, it's due to safety.

Cheers,

Doug and Cindy and Zach
St Francis 44
Annapolis, MD

On 14 Jan 2006 21:49:36 -0800, "boatgeek"
wrote:

Going to the original question, my family and I have been living aboard
cruising catamarans since 1996. First a PDQ 36 and now a St Francis
44.

Do you have any difficulty getting dock space?