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Old January 13th 06, 07:34 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Capt. JG
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why do people buy cruising catamarans ?

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
"Capt. Rob" wrote ...
DSK wrote ...

BTW if you want to call yourself "Captain" why don't you ...

Look up the word Captain, Doug. You might also ask the Coast Guard
exactly what a captain is. Here's a hint. It does not have to
involve a license. I think plenty of people here know who we are and
may even know that you no longer sail and have a trawler, but I
won't engage in any nonsense here since this is a real group.
You're welcome to fire away....I won't fire back. Have fun.


Well, you're certainly not a licensed captain. I suppose you can call
yourself whatever you want, but the typical definition of Captain is
someone licensed by the USCG or other authority.


I certainly agree.

Admiral of the Fleet Armond

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.comcast.net


Actually, I just prefer to be called skipper by friends, crew, or customers.
:-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




  #52   Report Post  
Old January 13th 06, 07:49 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Jeff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why do people buy cruising catamarans ?

DSK wrote:
Evan Gatehouse wrote:
...

Incidences of cruising cats are pretty infrequent. I only know of
the following;

- PDQ 32 capsizing while entering a cut in the Bahamas while a "rage"
was blowing. Pitchpoled in very shallow water in the huge breakers




Another incident not on the list... 2 ~ 3 years ago a Gemini capsized in
the Straights near Seattle. Boat was reportedly being sailed by a novice
in squally weather.


Jeff wrote:

I talked at length to the owner of this boat shortly after the
episode. Apparently, the charterer was singlehanding, on autopilot,
and down below. He was carrying full sail (one report said one turn
on the jib) in 25+ knots, sheeted in tight, while on a beam reach.


That's not really good practice, is it?


No, but almost all disasters include some degree of human error,
otherwise known as incompetence. When considering such events you
have to think about what is possible when you screw things up; not
what happens when you do everything perfectly.

Of course, in this case its possible that a monohull would have lost
its rig and have been in equally serious trouble.


.... (snip for brevity) ... The combination of narrow beam and tall
rig makes this sort of incident inevitable. For this reason, I've
usually said that the minimum size for an offshore capable cat is
about 35 feet, unless it has a very conservative rig.


Have you read Tom F. Jones account of sailing thru an Atlantic hurricane
in a 26' (IIRC) Wharram? That was most interesting. I think that
cruising can be done in multihulls with a degree of safety depending on
the skill & knowledge of the skipper... obviously the more he knows
about the characteristics of his specific vessel, the better.

I think I read that some time ago. When I wrote "conservative rig" I
was thinking of Prouts and especially Warrams.
  #53   Report Post  
Old January 13th 06, 07:58 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Marc Onrust
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why do people buy cruising catamarans ? (OT)

Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Peter HK wrote:


"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
One question nobody has addressed yet is what happens when a cat
capsizes? There
is no natural righting moment, as with a mono hull. I have never even
sailed on a cat
myself, but the heeling of a mono hull seems to offer some comfort
advantages, because the combination of sails and pendulum keel act as
a
kind of 'shock absorber' in wavy conditions. I would prefer to be
heeled over and on a steady lean than bounced up and down as one than
another hull is lifted and dropped by a wave, especially in
short choppy seas. Long rolling waves would probably somewhat nullify
this advantage. I am referring more to waves on the beam, but there
probably is some
effect on a close hauled tack.

Sherwin D.

There are occasional sea patterns that are uncomfortable on a multi,
usually
with beam seas, but the magnitude of the event needs to be considered.
Cats
reach max stability at about 5 degrees of heel (when a hull lifts). As
this
never happens on cruising cats, all heel angles are less than 5
degrees.
Short sharp waves can occasionally exceed this a little due to the
hulls
being in a trough and crest. Compare to a mono rolling downwind where
heel
angles can be 30 degrees side to side.

Multis do have a different motion- shorter and sharper compared to
slower
but much more amplitude on a mono.
Personally I find it quite comfortable. As stated in a previous post a
glass
never spills, which is a significant observation on the severity of the
motion.

When a multi capsizes it floats- most are now equipped with hatches to
enter
a secure part of the hull in a capsize. When a mono sinks however-
dragged
down by that ballast that makes it self-righting- the only hope is a
liferaft.

It depends on what you think is the most basic safety feature-
nonsinkability or self righting.

Peter HK

I guess most people prefer to be upside-down-but-floating compared to
upright-on-the-bottom of the Atlantic. The next question though, is what
are
chances of such events to happen? When I cross the Atlantic (or whatever
waters) I rather opt for a 1% chance to sink my monohull (and trust on
my
liferaft) than a 20% chance of capsizing my cat. Now, both figures are
probably
far from accurate, so my question is, what are chances that such things
will
happen?

Regards,
Marc
www.marineyacht.com

I don't think I recall hearing about any cruising cats that have
capsized.
Where are you getting 20% or even 5%?


I don't have a clue about those figures, that's why I said they (the
figures)
are probably far from accurate. I'm only trying to make clear (like
discussed
in the thread above as well) that you can only objectively compare the two
events (sinking a monohull vs. capsizing a cat) if you know what the
chances of
both events are. In doing so, I over exaggerated both 1% and 20% figures,
just
to make my point clear. I would prefer a cat by the way.

Cheers,
Marc
MarineYacht Yacht Charters


I would also if I could afford it... :-) Actually, in the bay, I like the
heel of the mono. I'm just not sure I want to do that again for days on end.



If I only could go back to "the bay" and SF once more. Been there a few years
ago with my wife. What a truly great city!!
  #54   Report Post  
Old January 13th 06, 08:06 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why do people buy cruising catamarans ?

Though slightly "off topic" my post kind of pertains to the
catamaran debate.

There is a young couple from Chicago that sold their worldly
possesions (including a condo) took a "Sailing 101" course on
Lake Michigan then proceeded to purchase a slightly used
CharterCats Sa "Wildcat 350" and immediately undertook a
circumnavigation of the world out of Florida. This adventure
started in September of 2003... and this week they are headed
for Sri Lanka via a brief stay in the Similan Islands.

Needless to say... they have had their trials and tribulations
due to their inexperience as sailors... and with the vessel
(S/V Bumfuzzle) itself. But for "the grace of God goes thee"
they have made it this far unscathed... although their boat has
had to have a lot of work done while enroute.

Their web site is:

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/

Their log entries are vastly numerous but well written (with
photos) and there is one window devoted to their on going dia-
logue with the manufacturer... the original surveyor... and
subsequent repair yard managers ...that those of you that are
technically gifted will find very interesting reading.

By the way they love to receive email and are fairly diligent
in responding promptly.

And yeh... for a lot of you in this group and the other sailing
type forums... these folks and their web site are *old news*.
But I thought I would still give a "heads up" about a good read
for those that may have missed out on the original flourish of
postings that took place back a year or so ago.

Best regards to all

Bill

  #55   Report Post  
Old January 13th 06, 08:20 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Jeff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why do people buy cruising catamarans ?

Bryan wrote:
Did a little reading last night about what the designers and builders of
multis say. From Morrelli: Crossing the pond 45 foot minimum, excluding the
Bay of Biscay, all notorious capes, and staying within 40 North and South.
After that add 10-15 foot and you are still marginal for the Capes. The
other designers tended to agree with this basic premise.


Morrelli designs tend to be aggressive, not conservative, so I'm not
surprised that they suggest a larger size. Certainly a huge number of
smaller Prouts have crossed oceans and circumnavigated without
incident. They built about 4000 cats, most in the 34-37 foot range
and they've sailed all over the world without a single capsize. But
my friends tell me it takes about 25 knots to get their 37 up to
speed. Their boat has made several Atlantic crossings.


I would tend to agree with Morrelli although smaller multi's have made
passages outside of these parameters. Lucky?


This is more of a philosophical question. What probability of success
would you consider "nominal"? I don't think I would make a crossing
if I thought the disaster rate was 10%, and I'd like to see it well
below 1%. But to be considered "really safe" you'd probably want 0.1%
or even better.

Smaller Benehuntalinas have crossed the pond many times; were they
lucky? I'd certainly take a Prout 37 over any of them. Would you
cross in a Hunter 36?


  #56   Report Post  
Old January 13th 06, 09:18 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Capt. JG
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why do people buy cruising catamarans ? (OT)

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Peter HK wrote:


"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
One question nobody has addressed yet is what happens when a cat
capsizes? There
is no natural righting moment, as with a mono hull. I have never
even
sailed on a cat
myself, but the heeling of a mono hull seems to offer some comfort
advantages, because the combination of sails and pendulum keel act
as
a
kind of 'shock absorber' in wavy conditions. I would prefer to be
heeled over and on a steady lean than bounced up and down as one
than
another hull is lifted and dropped by a wave, especially in
short choppy seas. Long rolling waves would probably somewhat
nullify
this advantage. I am referring more to waves on the beam, but there
probably is some
effect on a close hauled tack.

Sherwin D.

There are occasional sea patterns that are uncomfortable on a multi,
usually
with beam seas, but the magnitude of the event needs to be
considered.
Cats
reach max stability at about 5 degrees of heel (when a hull lifts).
As
this
never happens on cruising cats, all heel angles are less than 5
degrees.
Short sharp waves can occasionally exceed this a little due to the
hulls
being in a trough and crest. Compare to a mono rolling downwind where
heel
angles can be 30 degrees side to side.

Multis do have a different motion- shorter and sharper compared to
slower
but much more amplitude on a mono.
Personally I find it quite comfortable. As stated in a previous post
a
glass
never spills, which is a significant observation on the severity of
the
motion.

When a multi capsizes it floats- most are now equipped with hatches
to
enter
a secure part of the hull in a capsize. When a mono sinks however-
dragged
down by that ballast that makes it self-righting- the only hope is a
liferaft.

It depends on what you think is the most basic safety feature-
nonsinkability or self righting.

Peter HK

I guess most people prefer to be upside-down-but-floating compared to
upright-on-the-bottom of the Atlantic. The next question though, is
what
are
chances of such events to happen? When I cross the Atlantic (or
whatever
waters) I rather opt for a 1% chance to sink my monohull (and trust on
my
liferaft) than a 20% chance of capsizing my cat. Now, both figures are
probably
far from accurate, so my question is, what are chances that such
things
will
happen?

Regards,
Marc
www.marineyacht.com

I don't think I recall hearing about any cruising cats that have
capsized.
Where are you getting 20% or even 5%?


I don't have a clue about those figures, that's why I said they (the
figures)
are probably far from accurate. I'm only trying to make clear (like
discussed
in the thread above as well) that you can only objectively compare the
two
events (sinking a monohull vs. capsizing a cat) if you know what the
chances of
both events are. In doing so, I over exaggerated both 1% and 20%
figures,
just
to make my point clear. I would prefer a cat by the way.

Cheers,
Marc
MarineYacht Yacht Charters


I would also if I could afford it... :-) Actually, in the bay, I like the
heel of the mono. I'm just not sure I want to do that again for days on
end.



If I only could go back to "the bay" and SF once more. Been there a few
years
ago with my wife. What a truly great city!!


Where are you now?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



  #57   Report Post  
Old January 13th 06, 10:44 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Marc Onrust
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why do people buy cruising catamarans ? (OT)

Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Capt. JG wrote:

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
Peter HK wrote:


"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
One question nobody has addressed yet is what happens when a cat
capsizes? There
is no natural righting moment, as with a mono hull. I have never
even
sailed on a cat
myself, but the heeling of a mono hull seems to offer some comfort
advantages, because the combination of sails and pendulum keel act
as
a
kind of 'shock absorber' in wavy conditions. I would prefer to be
heeled over and on a steady lean than bounced up and down as one
than
another hull is lifted and dropped by a wave, especially in
short choppy seas. Long rolling waves would probably somewhat
nullify
this advantage. I am referring more to waves on the beam, but there
probably is some
effect on a close hauled tack.

Sherwin D.

There are occasional sea patterns that are uncomfortable on a multi,
usually
with beam seas, but the magnitude of the event needs to be
considered.
Cats
reach max stability at about 5 degrees of heel (when a hull lifts).
As
this
never happens on cruising cats, all heel angles are less than 5
degrees.
Short sharp waves can occasionally exceed this a little due to the
hulls
being in a trough and crest. Compare to a mono rolling downwind where
heel
angles can be 30 degrees side to side.

Multis do have a different motion- shorter and sharper compared to
slower
but much more amplitude on a mono.
Personally I find it quite comfortable. As stated in a previous post
a
glass
never spills, which is a significant observation on the severity of
the
motion.

When a multi capsizes it floats- most are now equipped with hatches
to
enter
a secure part of the hull in a capsize. When a mono sinks however-
dragged
down by that ballast that makes it self-righting- the only hope is a
liferaft.

It depends on what you think is the most basic safety feature-
nonsinkability or self righting.

Peter HK

I guess most people prefer to be upside-down-but-floating compared to
upright-on-the-bottom of the Atlantic. The next question though, is
what
are
chances of such events to happen? When I cross the Atlantic (or
whatever
waters) I rather opt for a 1% chance to sink my monohull (and trust on
my
liferaft) than a 20% chance of capsizing my cat. Now, both figures are
probably
far from accurate, so my question is, what are chances that such
things
will
happen?

Regards,
Marc
www.marineyacht.com

I don't think I recall hearing about any cruising cats that have
capsized.
Where are you getting 20% or even 5%?


I don't have a clue about those figures, that's why I said they (the
figures)
are probably far from accurate. I'm only trying to make clear (like
discussed
in the thread above as well) that you can only objectively compare the
two
events (sinking a monohull vs. capsizing a cat) if you know what the
chances of
both events are. In doing so, I over exaggerated both 1% and 20%
figures,
just
to make my point clear. I would prefer a cat by the way.

Cheers,
Marc
MarineYacht Yacht Charters

I would also if I could afford it... :-) Actually, in the bay, I like the
heel of the mono. I'm just not sure I want to do that again for days on
end.



If I only could go back to "the bay" and SF once more. Been there a few
years
ago with my wife. What a truly great city!!


Where are you now?


The Netherlands
  #58   Report Post  
Old January 13th 06, 11:06 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Capt. JG
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why do people buy cruising catamarans ? (OT)

"Marc Onrust" wrote in message
. nl...
I would also if I could afford it... :-) Actually, in the bay, I like
the
heel of the mono. I'm just not sure I want to do that again for days on
end.



If I only could go back to "the bay" and SF once more. Been there a few
years
ago with my wife. What a truly great city!!


Where are you now?


The Netherlands


Ah, I've got some friends over there... near Laren.


  #60   Report Post  
Old January 14th 06, 02:14 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Capt. JG
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why do people buy cruising catamarans ?

wrote in message
nk.net...

wrote:
Though slightly "off topic" my post kind of pertains to the
catamaran debate.

There is a young couple from Chicago that sold their worldly
possesions (including a condo) took a "Sailing 101" course on
Lake Michigan then proceeded to purchase a slightly used
CharterCats Sa "Wildcat 350" and immediately undertook a
circumnavigation of the world out of Florida. This adventure
started in September of 2003... and this week they are headed
for Sri Lanka via a brief stay in the Similan Islands.

Needless to say... they have had their trials and tribulations
due to their inexperience as sailors... and with the vessel
(S/V Bumfuzzle) itself. But for "the grace of God goes thee"
they have made it this far unscathed... although their boat has
had to have a lot of work done while enroute.

Their web site is:

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/

From the above web site:

"A friend from the U.S. had asked us if we could have a look
at a 55 foot monohull that is for sale here. It was kind of fun
to poke around on a big monohull, but even at 55 feet I have
to say that I am still happier on my 35 foot cat."

I'm also considering getting a catamaran but they're difficult
to find in California.


Huh? Why's that?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com





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