On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:14:08 -0500, Chuck Cox
wrote:

Roger Long wrote:
I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must
have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have
a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any
other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always
be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It
wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's
where something like this is apt to end up.

A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now.


I agree about the safety issues with gasoline and we would definitely
prefer to use diesel. Regardless of the fuel source, any automatic
charger would have to be deployed on deck, away from vents and fuel,
never in an enclosed space. I was assuming (perhaps foolishly) that
there would be a bigger market among outboard users than inboard users
and therefore more demand for gasoline than diesel. I would be
delighted if there were a market for a diesel version, it should be a
safer and more reliable, if louder, system.

We could probably make one that runs on used cooking oil.

I must be missing something: why would you want to install a diesel
genset on the weather deck of a cruising sail boat?

Being on deck means that:
1) the genset is exposed to salt spray, hence corrosion etc; and
2) its mass is high, detracting from the stability of the boat.

My small (26 foot LWL) cruising sailboat has a genset made up of a 523
cc 2-cylinder 7.5 hp diesel engine driving an alternator outputting a
maximum of 250 Amps of nominal 14VDC, with a permanent exhaust
installation. The diesel set, with electronic speed control to suit
the load demand and a three-phase voltage regulator for battery
charging, consumes about 1 litre of fuel per hour. Mass is 100 kg and
noise level is 80dB. Fuel fed from the installed tanks, via the usual
filters. And it's below decks.

And the company assembling (ie putting together the marinized diesel
set, the high output alternator, voltage regulator, electronic engine
speed control, etc) and marketing that unit discontinued it, due to
lack of demand (ie the market is tinier than you think, Chuck, and the
cost of mating together quality components is higher than buyers
expect).

To be used in a seaway (as opposed to in a harbor), a genset has to be
sheltered, low and as close to the centerline as possible. Note also
that small diesel sets do not lubricate well at the angles of heel
that monohulls commonly adopt - so that puts the on-demand idea at
question.

Cheers

Bil

Bil wrote in news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com:

250 Amps of nominal 14VDC

What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current, and
not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight?

Some day Roger will design us a hull with "battery ballast" built into
the keel, instead of the dead weigh that's down there, now. The "battery
ballast" will be 5000 AH of specially-shaped cells to make the keel
shape. All the thousands of pounds of weight will double as keel
deadweight for sailing. As this special keel is where the batteries are
located, all the space they're hogging in the boat, now, will be freed up
for useful living space and storage.

The "battery ballast" will be removable when the boat is hauled for easy
replacement when you go to paint the bottom. They might bolt to either
side of a narrow keel with a skid shoe for grounding under the "ballast
batteries" without damaging them. A protective forefoot along the front
of such a keel across the bow end of them would also help protect them.

Being naturally water cooled along their long sides, amazing charging and
discharge currents could be shoved through them without overheating, like
batteries in the bilge would cooled by air.

I think this would be a great use for the AGM maintenance-free wetcell
technology of today......and the Toshiba 60-second-recharging Lithium-Ion
cells that electric auto industry will be using in the future.....

How 'bout it, Roger? Good idea?

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 00:19:28 -0500, Larry wrote:

Bil wrote in news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com:

250 Amps of nominal 14VDC

What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current, and
not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight?

Battery charging is not the only use for electrical energy, Larry. But
I figure you knew that.

250 A at 14VDC is the theoretical maximum output from the genset, with
the diesel set at max rpm. When I specified the battery bank and
genset, I wanted to take advantage of the ability of AGM batts to
absorb charge fast. And the 500 Ah bank of AGMs does (although
efficiency has dropped - they're 5 years old now). I think the biggest
current I've seen when just battery charging is about half of the
theoretical max.

Bil wrote in news:eu70p1dt8ckcbgsi7ouhgqtdtb73nle372@
4ax.com:

ability of AGM batts to
absorb charge fast.

Another AGM myth. An AGM battery is exactly the same as any lead-acid
wetcell. It consists of the same plates, the same acid, the same
chemistry, the same physics as the cheapest car battery you can buy.
It's difference is the acid, instead of being a free liquid that can cool
the cell, self-healing, adjustable in gravity and measurable in that
gravity...it's soaked into a fiberglass mat that looks like really thin
gauze and the plates, soft lead that will tolerate being rolled up
tightly, is, in fact rolled up and stuffed into a plastic tube.

Being rolled up tightly in fiberglass, the AGM lacks the wetcell's plate
distortion problems of suspended soft lead, somewhat, and will tolerate a
little higher core temperature, which it must do as there is no cooling
circulation. But, when the red starting AGM in my stepvan tore itself
apart and melted the red plastic case, the results were the same.

Hard charging an AGM produces the same surface charge of lead plating as
hard charging any lead-acid battery without the deeper plating of slow
charging over hours at low current. AGM is not chemical magic or voodoo
as the sales hype tries to justify the awful price.

That's an incredibly cool idea. It might make a hybrid boat concept
work. You could motor under quiet electric power when you wanted
maximum ambiance and have power instantly available without having to
get a diesel started and warmed up. Reverse generation from
freewheeling the prop under sail might be feasible. Solar, windmill,
and any other power would just go into the same pot without separate
systems.

My mind is racing but I'm kind of busy with this boat:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/UMDconcept.htm

right now as well as the Titanic

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Titanic.htm

post expedition investigation.

Batteries are not all that heavy and additional ballast would be
needed. So, make that keel out of 1/2 or 3/4 inch steel plate with a
thicker bottom and you would have a boat that would bounce off just
about anything.

--

Roger Long



"Larry" wrote in message
...
Bil wrote in
news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com:

250 Amps of nominal 14VDC

What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current,
and
not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight?

Some day Roger will design us a hull with "battery ballast" built
into
the keel, instead of the dead weigh that's down there, now. The
"battery
ballast" will be 5000 AH of specially-shaped cells to make the keel
shape. All the thousands of pounds of weight will double as keel
deadweight for sailing. As this special keel is where the batteries
are
located, all the space they're hogging in the boat, now, will be
freed up
for useful living space and storage.

The "battery ballast" will be removable when the boat is hauled for
easy
replacement when you go to paint the bottom. They might bolt to
either
side of a narrow keel with a skid shoe for grounding under the
"ballast
batteries" without damaging them. A protective forefoot along the
front
of such a keel across the bow end of them would also help protect
them.

Being naturally water cooled along their long sides, amazing
charging and
discharge currents could be shoved through them without overheating,
like
batteries in the bilge would cooled by air.

I think this would be a great use for the AGM maintenance-free
wetcell
technology of today......and the Toshiba 60-second-recharging
Lithium-Ion
cells that electric auto industry will be using in the future.....

How 'bout it, Roger? Good idea?

"Roger Long" wrote in news:LwVjf.51498$DL6.51412
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

Batteries are not all that heavy and additional ballast would be
needed. So, make that keel out of 1/2 or 3/4 inch steel plate with a
thicker bottom and you would have a boat that would bounce off just
about anything.


I was thinking of batteries in the multi-thousand-amp-hour range. Making
a larger battery, of course heavier, adds to the desired ballast weight,
instead of detracting from the ballast's balacing act up in the hull like
we're doing it, now. The bigger/heavier the battery below fore-aft CG,
the better, instead of the other way around. New battery technology
makes it impossible to do any kind of maintenance on the cells, so you
lose nothing in control and gain all that weight below CG.

As to the recharging, these hybrid electric cars are already recovering
power from their powerful dynamic braking and deceleration from the
computer. This same technology could be used on the diesel-electric
propulsion of the boat. The traction motor driving the hull while the
engine is running is merely switched by the computer to powerful
generator service as the prop pitch is adjusted by the computer to
maximize shaft torque constantly during sailing under varying conditions.
Current shaft alternators are just running on luck dragging water over
the fixed prop not designed to be a source of power. I think a lot more
power could be extracted by a computer-controlled, reversible-pitch prop
we're missing out now dragging the screw through the water backwards.

Hybrid vehicle research is paying for the boat propulsion systems of
tomorrow, right now. That new Toshiba Lithium-Ion cell will replace all
these lead-acid, nickel-cadmium/metal hydride or iron, and current
Lithium-Ion technologies in such a propulsion system quite soon. The
ability to recharge the keel battery packs from "dead" level to 100% in
three minutes at some amazing load on the diesel genset, instead of the
piddling use of diesel power with our tiny belt-driven alternators of
today, is going to make electrical power much more efficient very soon.

Of course, getting our "old sailing ship" sailors to overcome their
nostalgia to install such technology may prove daunting. Replacing the
inefficient sails with high powered wind turbines, like on the Jacque
Cousteau vertical turbine ship, has a long way to go. A boat like that
would have power to waste anchored in any wind. No sails would be
necessary and it would power 360 degrees, even dead into the wind.

Whatever happened to that odd-looking ship, anyway? I'll have to do some
net searching, now that I think of it...(c;

Larry,
Are you talking about that trimaran with the rotating vertical cylinders ?
I saw that (at least was told it was Cousteau's) at a marina up the
Chickahominy R off the James R in VA maybe 8 years ago. Don't think it's
there now.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote in news:LwVjf.51498$DL6.51412
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
snip


Of course, getting our "old sailing ship" sailors to overcome their
nostalgia to install such technology may prove daunting. Replacing the
inefficient sails with high powered wind turbines, like on the Jacque
Cousteau vertical turbine ship, has a long way to go. A boat like that
would have power to waste anchored in any wind. No sails would be
necessary and it would power 360 degrees, even dead into the wind.

Whatever happened to that odd-looking ship, anyway? I'll have to do some
net searching, now that I think of it...(c;

"Garland Gray II" wrote in
news:zD5kf.26955$ih5.3190@dukeread11:

Larry,
Are you talking about that trimaran with the rotating vertical
cylinders ? I saw that (at least was told it was Cousteau's) at a
marina up the Chickahominy R off the James R in VA maybe 8 years ago.
Don't think it's there now.



Yeah, that's the one. Has like 4 rotating cylinder sails that catch wind
from any direction to power the boat. The vanes in it look like and S if
you look down from the top of it.

There was a great documentary made of it, but I can't find it.

I was thinking the drums were perfect cylinders. Maybe not, but I thought
the principle was that wind past the rotating surface created a pressure
differntial. Makes sense, but I can't think there would be much resulting
force.
I might drive up there some dreary day to find what happened to her.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Garland Gray II" wrote in
news:zD5kf.26955$ih5.3190@dukeread11:

Larry,
Are you talking about that trimaran with the rotating vertical
cylinders ? I saw that (at least was told it was Cousteau's) at a
marina up the Chickahominy R off the James R in VA maybe 8 years ago.
Don't think it's there now.



Yeah, that's the one. Has like 4 rotating cylinder sails that catch wind
from any direction to power the boat. The vanes in it look like and S if
you look down from the top of it.

There was a great documentary made of it, but I can't find it.

The vanes in it look like and S if
you look down from the top of it.

There was a great documentary made of it, but I can't find it.


I rememebr the article in Popular Mechanics, or Popular Science several
years ago.

it was interesting indeed!