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#11
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
Jeff wrote:
This is sounding like a baby version of the Honda EU1000. Actually, one of the problems I've heard of with that is that it can't put its entire output into a charger, so I'd like to see a unit that doesn't have that problem. While there are some similarities, there are significant differences. Our design is capable of automatically starting & stopping, so it can be left on all night. Our existing design does not incorporate an AC inverter although we could add one if there was sufficient demand. Our output is 100% DC, so all power would be available for charging. It looks like the EU1000 can only put out 100w of DC. Our design could provide 5x that continuously, in about half the space, weight & noise. -- Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems , , synchro.com my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK. |
#12
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:14:08 -0500, Chuck Cox
wrote: Roger Long wrote: I suggest concentrating on diesel. The gas version ABSOLUTELY must have no self starting feature for boating applications unless you have a line on amazing liability insurance. Starting a gas engine, or any other flame producing device, on a boat that carries gas must always be done after careful determination that there have been no leaks. It wouldn't be much different in any other enclosed space and that's where something like this is apt to end up. A small diesel could burn K2 which is nearly as available as gas now. I agree about the safety issues with gasoline and we would definitely prefer to use diesel. Regardless of the fuel source, any automatic charger would have to be deployed on deck, away from vents and fuel, never in an enclosed space. I was assuming (perhaps foolishly) that there would be a bigger market among outboard users than inboard users and therefore more demand for gasoline than diesel. I would be delighted if there were a market for a diesel version, it should be a safer and more reliable, if louder, system. We could probably make one that runs on used cooking oil. I must be missing something: why would you want to install a diesel genset on the weather deck of a cruising sail boat? Being on deck means that: 1) the genset is exposed to salt spray, hence corrosion etc; and 2) its mass is high, detracting from the stability of the boat. My small (26 foot LWL) cruising sailboat has a genset made up of a 523 cc 2-cylinder 7.5 hp diesel engine driving an alternator outputting a maximum of 250 Amps of nominal 14VDC, with a permanent exhaust installation. The diesel set, with electronic speed control to suit the load demand and a three-phase voltage regulator for battery charging, consumes about 1 litre of fuel per hour. Mass is 100 kg and noise level is 80dB. Fuel fed from the installed tanks, via the usual filters. And it's below decks. And the company assembling (ie putting together the marinized diesel set, the high output alternator, voltage regulator, electronic engine speed control, etc) and marketing that unit discontinued it, due to lack of demand (ie the market is tinier than you think, Chuck, and the cost of mating together quality components is higher than buyers expect). To be used in a seaway (as opposed to in a harbor), a genset has to be sheltered, low and as close to the centerline as possible. Note also that small diesel sets do not lubricate well at the angles of heel that monohulls commonly adopt - so that puts the on-demand idea at question. Cheers Bil |
#13
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
Gordon wrote:
Obviously a need for both versions. Cost would be a big factor for me, Gordon Given the low production volumes likely for such a product, it would probably cost about as much as a decent mass-produced 1000w generator. You would basically be trading output capacity for automatic operation, smaller size and less noise. -- Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems , , synchro.com my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK. |
#14
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
Honda used to make a 500 watt gas generator that was 12 volt or 110 volt. I
have one. I think its about 20 years old. "Chuck Cox" wrote in message ... Gordon wrote: Obviously a need for both versions. Cost would be a big factor for me, Gordon Given the low production volumes likely for such a product, it would probably cost about as much as a decent mass-produced 1000w generator. You would basically be trading output capacity for automatic operation, smaller size and less noise. -- Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems , , synchro.com my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK. |
#15
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
In article ,
Chuck Cox wrote: Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to cooperate with external charge controllers. About the only candidates I've seen have inefficient AC/DC refrigerators in small boats. Those with onboard A/C might find it undersized. At that, you could have sufficient market, though 500w would be huge overkill. In rough numbers, to effectively consume that much power, the boat would have at least 500 AH capacity. My 55 amp charger rarely runs as high as 20 amps for a few minutes on our 250 AH system. Even the smart charger doesn't stay that high for much longer. And it can only be used on the deck unless it's set up to be sparkless and the exhaust can be piped away from the interior, which eliminates much of the cruising crowd. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
#16
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
Bil wrote in news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@
4ax.com: 250 Amps of nominal 14VDC What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current, and not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight? Some day Roger will design us a hull with "battery ballast" built into the keel, instead of the dead weigh that's down there, now. The "battery ballast" will be 5000 AH of specially-shaped cells to make the keel shape. All the thousands of pounds of weight will double as keel deadweight for sailing. As this special keel is where the batteries are located, all the space they're hogging in the boat, now, will be freed up for useful living space and storage. The "battery ballast" will be removable when the boat is hauled for easy replacement when you go to paint the bottom. They might bolt to either side of a narrow keel with a skid shoe for grounding under the "ballast batteries" without damaging them. A protective forefoot along the front of such a keel across the bow end of them would also help protect them. Being naturally water cooled along their long sides, amazing charging and discharge currents could be shoved through them without overheating, like batteries in the bilge would cooled by air. I think this would be a great use for the AGM maintenance-free wetcell technology of today......and the Toshiba 60-second-recharging Lithium-Ion cells that electric auto industry will be using in the future..... How 'bout it, Roger? Good idea? |
#17
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 00:19:28 -0500, Larry wrote:
Bil wrote in news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@ 4ax.com: 250 Amps of nominal 14VDC What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current, and not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight? Battery charging is not the only use for electrical energy, Larry. But I figure you knew that. 250 A at 14VDC is the theoretical maximum output from the genset, with the diesel set at max rpm. When I specified the battery bank and genset, I wanted to take advantage of the ability of AGM batts to absorb charge fast. And the 500 Ah bank of AGMs does (although efficiency has dropped - they're 5 years old now). I think the biggest current I've seen when just battery charging is about half of the theoretical max. |
#18
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
That's an incredibly cool idea. It might make a hybrid boat concept
work. You could motor under quiet electric power when you wanted maximum ambiance and have power instantly available without having to get a diesel started and warmed up. Reverse generation from freewheeling the prop under sail might be feasible. Solar, windmill, and any other power would just go into the same pot without separate systems. My mind is racing but I'm kind of busy with this boat: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/UMDconcept.htm right now as well as the Titanic http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Titanic.htm post expedition investigation. Batteries are not all that heavy and additional ballast would be needed. So, make that keel out of 1/2 or 3/4 inch steel plate with a thicker bottom and you would have a boat that would bounce off just about anything. -- Roger Long "Larry" wrote in message ... Bil wrote in news:3ebvo1lujj9hblfr8iu9g5aefpolvle9ea@ 4ax.com: 250 Amps of nominal 14VDC What Ampere-Hour batteries are you charging with this much current, and not boiling them? Will the boat float that much battery weight? Some day Roger will design us a hull with "battery ballast" built into the keel, instead of the dead weigh that's down there, now. The "battery ballast" will be 5000 AH of specially-shaped cells to make the keel shape. All the thousands of pounds of weight will double as keel deadweight for sailing. As this special keel is where the batteries are located, all the space they're hogging in the boat, now, will be freed up for useful living space and storage. The "battery ballast" will be removable when the boat is hauled for easy replacement when you go to paint the bottom. They might bolt to either side of a narrow keel with a skid shoe for grounding under the "ballast batteries" without damaging them. A protective forefoot along the front of such a keel across the bow end of them would also help protect them. Being naturally water cooled along their long sides, amazing charging and discharge currents could be shoved through them without overheating, like batteries in the bilge would cooled by air. I think this would be a great use for the AGM maintenance-free wetcell technology of today......and the Toshiba 60-second-recharging Lithium-Ion cells that electric auto industry will be using in the future..... How 'bout it, Roger? Good idea? |
#19
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
Bil wrote in news:eu70p1dt8ckcbgsi7ouhgqtdtb73nle372@
4ax.com: ability of AGM batts to absorb charge fast. Another AGM myth. An AGM battery is exactly the same as any lead-acid wetcell. It consists of the same plates, the same acid, the same chemistry, the same physics as the cheapest car battery you can buy. It's difference is the acid, instead of being a free liquid that can cool the cell, self-healing, adjustable in gravity and measurable in that gravity...it's soaked into a fiberglass mat that looks like really thin gauze and the plates, soft lead that will tolerate being rolled up tightly, is, in fact rolled up and stuffed into a plastic tube. Being rolled up tightly in fiberglass, the AGM lacks the wetcell's plate distortion problems of suspended soft lead, somewhat, and will tolerate a little higher core temperature, which it must do as there is no cooling circulation. But, when the red starting AGM in my stepvan tore itself apart and melted the red plastic case, the results were the same. Hard charging an AGM produces the same surface charge of lead plating as hard charging any lead-acid battery without the deeper plating of slow charging over hours at low current. AGM is not chemical magic or voodoo as the sales hype tries to justify the awful price. |
#20
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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500w self-starting DC generator anyone?
"Roger Long" wrote in news:LwVjf.51498$DL6.51412
@twister.nyroc.rr.com: Batteries are not all that heavy and additional ballast would be needed. So, make that keel out of 1/2 or 3/4 inch steel plate with a thicker bottom and you would have a boat that would bounce off just about anything. I was thinking of batteries in the multi-thousand-amp-hour range. Making a larger battery, of course heavier, adds to the desired ballast weight, instead of detracting from the ballast's balacing act up in the hull like we're doing it, now. The bigger/heavier the battery below fore-aft CG, the better, instead of the other way around. New battery technology makes it impossible to do any kind of maintenance on the cells, so you lose nothing in control and gain all that weight below CG. As to the recharging, these hybrid electric cars are already recovering power from their powerful dynamic braking and deceleration from the computer. This same technology could be used on the diesel-electric propulsion of the boat. The traction motor driving the hull while the engine is running is merely switched by the computer to powerful generator service as the prop pitch is adjusted by the computer to maximize shaft torque constantly during sailing under varying conditions. Current shaft alternators are just running on luck dragging water over the fixed prop not designed to be a source of power. I think a lot more power could be extracted by a computer-controlled, reversible-pitch prop we're missing out now dragging the screw through the water backwards. Hybrid vehicle research is paying for the boat propulsion systems of tomorrow, right now. That new Toshiba Lithium-Ion cell will replace all these lead-acid, nickel-cadmium/metal hydride or iron, and current Lithium-Ion technologies in such a propulsion system quite soon. The ability to recharge the keel battery packs from "dead" level to 100% in three minutes at some amazing load on the diesel genset, instead of the piddling use of diesel power with our tiny belt-driven alternators of today, is going to make electrical power much more efficient very soon. Of course, getting our "old sailing ship" sailors to overcome their nostalgia to install such technology may prove daunting. Replacing the inefficient sails with high powered wind turbines, like on the Jacque Cousteau vertical turbine ship, has a long way to go. A boat like that would have power to waste anchored in any wind. No sails would be necessary and it would power 360 degrees, even dead into the wind. Whatever happened to that odd-looking ship, anyway? I'll have to do some net searching, now that I think of it...(c; |
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