On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:26:43 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

You mean "miss-quoted".

I've been getting calls from reporters as far away as Norway and
Brazil. It's nice to be able to chase them away quickly by telling
them I'm under a non-disclosure agreement. Otherwise, I'd be doing
nothing but talking on the phone.

It's a much better story than the press items indicate. It's going to
be a super show. Don't miss it.

February 26.

Good for you, Roger. Nice to see a "local boy" newsgroup poster in the
news in a situation that doesn't involve getting hoisted off a deck by
a helicopter's winch...

R.

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:26:43 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:
You mean "miss-quoted".

I've been getting calls from reporters as far away as Norway and
Brazil. It's nice to be able to chase them away quickly by telling
them I'm under a non-disclosure agreement. Otherwise, I'd be doing
nothing but talking on the phone.

================================

My experience is that the press hardly ever gets it right when dealing
with technical topics, makes you wonder about the others.

Only the Wall Street Journal even comes close in my opinion.

Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

Chuck Cox wrote:
Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...
[snip]
Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

i think this is a good idea. in battery based electrical systems there
has always been a giant gap that needs to be filled in the area of
battery charging with fuel based generators. with solar panels you get
a small charge going into your bank, the same with wind generation,
usually upwards to 200 or 300 watts if you are extremely fortunate.
but if you want to use a fuel based system you've always had to step up
to suddenly wasting incredible amounts of fuel to run an alternator
that is very inefficient at charging batteries for the amount of fuel
wasted doing it, and there's not been a generator that is down in the
"few hundred watt" range that would make better use of fuel. battery
banks can only accept a certain amount of power, and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing. nobody has ever bothered to
make and sell an inexpensive small diesel generator designed to charge
a battery bank, at least not that i've ever seen. cruisers are
interested in the measurement "battery bank watt hours created per
liter of fuel", and i'm not aware of any manufacturer that has ever
thought about it that way. most generator makers just think of "watts
generated per liter", which isn't the same thing at all.

so i think this is a great idea for a product, one that's been needed
for a long time. a fuel based battery charger, especially great in
diesel, that will not make a pile of noise, won't generate more than a
few hundred watts of power, and efficiently turns fuel into battery
charge. what's not to like about that.

i would think that hooking it into the fuel line for the engine's fuel
tank would be the preferred way, but why not make the external tank an
option ? that way you can decide for yourself when you buy one if you
want the tank or if you want a piece of fuel line and a T adapter.
diesel is definitely the way to go, storage of gasoline is a problem.
it would be nice if it used fuel filters that you can get at the same
time as the ones for your marine engine without special ordering. and
also remote start so you can mount the starter switch where ever you
want it.

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

I too think this is a good idea and if the price was right, would buy
one. We built something similar to use on an island once, but it was
petrol powered and quite noisy, plus relatively inefficient. Used a
motorcycle permanent magnet alternator.

PDW

"purple_stars" wrote in
oups.com:

and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing.

Ahhh....a refreshing voice of SENSE in the background noise.....

A solution might be:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/M...elName=eu1000i
I love mine. We took it to sea and out on local cruises many times.
It's so quiet and so easy on fuel. With its 12V 8A internal charger
hooked to the 12V bus plus the boat's dual 10A Guest charger running off
its rock-solid 60 Hz, 120VAC inverter power, it never left its low-speed
econo mode until someone lit off the microwave. The .6 US Gallon tank
easily runs 8 hours with that kind of load. I don't know what it runs on
that lean. The fuel system is sealed tight once you've shut off the vent
in the cap to store it, too.

I used it as a shop heater inside the stepvan when it's cold in winter,
in addition to a power supply. I welded a galvanized pipe nipple to the
little nubbin of an outlet on the muffler so I could connect some copper
tubing to the exhaust. The tubing is left in a coil that radiates heat
like mad before the cold exhaust dripping with moisture is fed through a
hole in the truck's floor outside. This way, I recover nearly 100% of
the energy from the little fuel tank as heat or power. The cooling air
recycles inside the truck and doesn't set off my CO alarm, at all. Sure
makes the shop toasty warm on a cold morning for a little mechanical
noise and a tiny bit of gas...(c;

It's a Honda, so it always starts on the first easy pull..... Anchored
with it on the bow, you can hardly hear it running inside the cabin. At
sea with it running on the stern and the exhaust pointed aft, it makes
about the same noise as the waves....Just bungie the big handle to the
stern rail by the beer cooler...

I've also connected its DC charging output directly to a thermoelectric
ice chest, just to see how it will pull that load. It's not made for
this service, but the Igloo DC cooler doesn't seem to mind. If anything,
the fan runs a little faster than it does on a battery. The voltage open
circuit is around 17VDC but drops fast from its internal resistance when
the load comes on. It's not regulated or filtered, just rectified high
frequency, multiphase AC off the flywheel coil banks that run it all....

"Chuck Cox" wrote in message
...
Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is
designing what amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting
gasoline battery charger. The charger is designed to be
portable, unobtrusive and easy to maintain. If the battery has
sufficient charge, it can self-start, but it can also be
hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery
charged.

I've used petrol gennys for charging (not auto) and like the idea,
and also agree the preference for diesel. Nice if it's portable -
but that means air cooling - usually noisier.

One factor you haven't mentioned is the desirability of charging
at the maximum feasible rate (minimum running time). Perhaps
you've already got that idea in mind.

Just in case you haven't, I achieved best results charging by
taking my (European) 240v through an intelligent charger, one that
sensed battery voltage direct, and delivered up to 14.4v (variable
depending on battery type) stepping to 13.6v once the main charge
had been delivered (there was also a 16v option for de-sulphating
the batteries. Add water afterwards!).

A shortcoming of most petrol gennys on the market which supply 12v
nominal is that they're usually regulated to 13.4v or so maximum,
which gives a very slow re-charge once you reach 75% or so of
battery capacity. Especially if you're pumping it down a long line
.. . .

JimB

purple_stars wrote:

if you want to use a fuel based system you've always had to step up
to suddenly wasting incredible amounts of fuel to run an alternator
that is very inefficient at charging batteries for the amount of fuel
wasted doing it, and there's not been a generator that is down in the
"few hundred watt" range that would make better use of fuel. battery
banks can only accept a certain amount of power, and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing. nobody has ever bothered to
make and sell an inexpensive small diesel generator designed to charge
a battery bank, at least not that i've ever seen. cruisers are
interested in the measurement "battery bank watt hours created per
liter of fuel", and i'm not aware of any manufacturer that has ever
thought about it that way. most generator makers just think of "watts
generated per liter", which isn't the same thing at all.

That is exactly our thinking too. By optimizing the system for charging
only, we can maximize efficiency. Our biggest advantage is that we have
a fixed load and can optimize the system for a very narrow operating
range in terms of speed and power. Although we are using an
off-the-shelf motor, we expect to use custom induction & exhaust systems
in order to maximize efficiency and minimize noise and size.

i would think that hooking it into the fuel line for the engine's fuel
tank would be the preferred way, but why not make the external tank an
option ? that way you can decide for yourself when you buy one if you
want the tank or if you want a piece of fuel line and a T adapter.

As a small business, we can only afford to design, manufacture and
support one configuration initially. I'm trying to figure out which
configuration would be our best first shot.

diesel is definitely the way to go, storage of gasoline is a problem.
it would be nice if it used fuel filters that you can get at the same
time as the ones for your marine engine without special ordering.

Our intention is to use as many off-the-shelf components as possible.
However, most of the parts probably won't be found in a typical marine
catalog because I don't think there are too many 1 hp marine
diesel-electric applications. For example, I suspect any fuel filter or
fuel pump you find in a marine catalog is going to be far too large for
our application. The upside is that you won't have to pay marine prices
for replacement parts.

and
also remote start so you can mount the starter switch where ever you
want it.

There really won't be a "Start" button. There will only be "On/Off" and
the charger will decide when to start and stop. When you suggest this
feature, are you thinking of a built-in or stand-alone configuation? I
think this would be required in a built-in configuration, but for a
stand-alone configuration, I'm inclined to forgoe the additional expense
unless it provides a significant benefit.

Thanks for your feedback.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

Peter Wiley wrote:
Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

Air cooled.

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

The noise will be minimized since we can optimize the induction/exhaust
system for one fundamental frequency and amplitude. However, you are
right that it will make noise and require ventilation. I am
particularly concerned about exhaust gases. A built-in system would
almost certainly be more expensive to design and support, so we'd need
to see sufficient demand to justify it.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

Does the higher profile of a gravity-fed system matter to you? Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Thanks for the feedback.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

News f2s wrote:
I've used petrol gennys for charging (not auto) and like the idea,
and also agree the preference for diesel. Nice if it's portable -
but that means air cooling - usually noisier.

On the other hand, since we will be operating at only one speed, we can
optimize our noise reduction, so it will be quieter than a
variable-speed motor.

One factor you haven't mentioned is the desirability of charging
at the maximum feasible rate (minimum running time). Perhaps
you've already got that idea in mind.

Yes, the system is designed to operate at an optimal output power. It
should only start when the batteries are low enough to take a full
charge and shutdown when the load drops. It isn't designed to do
trickle or variable charging.

Just in case you haven't, I achieved best results charging by
taking my (European) 240v through an intelligent charger, one that
sensed battery voltage direct, and delivered up to 14.4v (variable
depending on battery type) stepping to 13.6v once the main charge
had been delivered (there was also a 16v option for de-sulphating
the batteries. Add water afterwards!).

This brings up another question; should we incorporate an intelligent
charger or should we interface with an existing external charger? If
your batteries are already connected to a charging system, it will only
confuse things if we try to operate two independent changing systems
simultaneously. My assumption is that most potential users of this
charger already have a charging system onboard. Is this a valid
assumption? I have no experience with off-the-shelf marine chargers,
can they even be interfaced with an external power source?


A shortcoming of most petrol gennys on the market which supply 12v
nominal is that they're usually regulated to 13.4v or so maximum,
which gives a very slow re-charge once you reach 75% or so of
battery capacity. Especially if you're pumping it down a long line
. . .

Because of the binary nature of our system, we don't intend on taking
the batteries to full charge, just to the point where they can no longer
take full charging current. This is the most efficient way to operate
our system since it is optimized to deliver a specific output power and
will lose efficiency at lower output levels.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK