Peter Wiley wrote:
Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

Air cooled.

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

The noise will be minimized since we can optimize the induction/exhaust
system for one fundamental frequency and amplitude. However, you are
right that it will make noise and require ventilation. I am
particularly concerned about exhaust gases. A built-in system would
almost certainly be more expensive to design and support, so we'd need
to see sufficient demand to justify it.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

Does the higher profile of a gravity-fed system matter to you? Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Thanks for the feedback.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:
Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

Air cooled.

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

The noise will be minimized since we can optimize the induction/exhaust
system for one fundamental frequency and amplitude. However, you are
right that it will make noise and require ventilation. I am
particularly concerned about exhaust gases.

If it operates belowdecks, it *has* to have some form of idiot-proof
exhaust to a weather deck.

A built-in system would
almost certainly be more expensive to design and support, so we'd need
to see sufficient demand to justify it.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

Does the higher profile of a gravity-fed system matter to you?

No.

Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Probably, depending on size, in a dedicated locker aft, sealed from the
interior spaces similar to a locker for gas bottles. Tell me how big
it's likely to be, how much ventilation it needs and I may have other
ideas.

PDW

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:
Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Probably, depending on size, in a dedicated locker aft, sealed from the
interior spaces similar to a locker for gas bottles. Tell me how big
it's likely to be, how much ventilation it needs and I may have other
ideas.

If we use a fuel pump, it'll probably be about the size of a shoebox.
If we use gravity, it'll be maybe 50% taller. If there is no integral
tank, maybe 1/2 a shoebox. The intake and exhaust will probably be
under 1" in diameter. For short runs, appropriate tubing of that
diameter would suffice.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

"Chuck Cox" wrote in message
...
Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is
designing what amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting
gasoline battery charger. The charger is designed to be
portable, unobtrusive and easy to maintain. If the battery has
sufficient charge, it can self-start, but it can also be
hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery
charged.

I've used petrol gennys for charging (not auto) and like the idea,
and also agree the preference for diesel. Nice if it's portable -
but that means air cooling - usually noisier.

One factor you haven't mentioned is the desirability of charging
at the maximum feasible rate (minimum running time). Perhaps
you've already got that idea in mind.

Just in case you haven't, I achieved best results charging by
taking my (European) 240v through an intelligent charger, one that
sensed battery voltage direct, and delivered up to 14.4v (variable
depending on battery type) stepping to 13.6v once the main charge
had been delivered (there was also a 16v option for de-sulphating
the batteries. Add water afterwards!).

A shortcoming of most petrol gennys on the market which supply 12v
nominal is that they're usually regulated to 13.4v or so maximum,
which gives a very slow re-charge once you reach 75% or so of
battery capacity. Especially if you're pumping it down a long line
.. . .

JimB

News f2s wrote:
I've used petrol gennys for charging (not auto) and like the idea,
and also agree the preference for diesel. Nice if it's portable -
but that means air cooling - usually noisier.

On the other hand, since we will be operating at only one speed, we can
optimize our noise reduction, so it will be quieter than a
variable-speed motor.

One factor you haven't mentioned is the desirability of charging
at the maximum feasible rate (minimum running time). Perhaps
you've already got that idea in mind.

Yes, the system is designed to operate at an optimal output power. It
should only start when the batteries are low enough to take a full
charge and shutdown when the load drops. It isn't designed to do
trickle or variable charging.

Just in case you haven't, I achieved best results charging by
taking my (European) 240v through an intelligent charger, one that
sensed battery voltage direct, and delivered up to 14.4v (variable
depending on battery type) stepping to 13.6v once the main charge
had been delivered (there was also a 16v option for de-sulphating
the batteries. Add water afterwards!).

This brings up another question; should we incorporate an intelligent
charger or should we interface with an existing external charger? If
your batteries are already connected to a charging system, it will only
confuse things if we try to operate two independent changing systems
simultaneously. My assumption is that most potential users of this
charger already have a charging system onboard. Is this a valid
assumption? I have no experience with off-the-shelf marine chargers,
can they even be interfaced with an external power source?


A shortcoming of most petrol gennys on the market which supply 12v
nominal is that they're usually regulated to 13.4v or so maximum,
which gives a very slow re-charge once you reach 75% or so of
battery capacity. Especially if you're pumping it down a long line
. . .

Because of the binary nature of our system, we don't intend on taking
the batteries to full charge, just to the point where they can no longer
take full charging current. This is the most efficient way to operate
our system since it is optimized to deliver a specific output power and
will lose efficiency at lower output levels.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:51:30 -0500, Chuck Cox
wrote:


This brings up another question; should we incorporate an intelligent
charger or should we interface with an existing external charger? If
your batteries are already connected to a charging system, it will only
confuse things if we try to operate two independent changing systems
simultaneously. My assumption is that most potential users of this
charger already have a charging system onboard. Is this a valid
assumption? I have no experience with off-the-shelf marine chargers,
can they even be interfaced with an external power source?

I think you may find that if you design a basic "core" model, you can
successfully market add-ons geared to end-user needs. I would
personally favour smart-charging because it "covers my bets" for a
multitude of scenarios: the failure of a smart/regulated alternator on
the main diesel, the failure of a charger, and the failure of the wind
to blow and the sun to shine, which would be my primary methods of
charging in order to avoid the wasteful and noisy running of the main
engine for 2 hrs/day to provide a charge.

So if you can make this design "modular", you have the options that
people want: a luggable power supply, a miniature diesel "day charger"
for battery banks, keeping one less fuel type on board, and the
options to tap into tank fuel or to use integral fuel.

It's a great option for small-boat owners, too, who frequently stay on
the hook longer, anyway, and who tend to do more yard work at a
distance from "municipal power".

I am currently on a dock, but would be happier on a mooring (and would
save $1,500/year) if I could have this sort of thing to charge me up.

R.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:06:11 -0500,
Chuck Cox wrote:
Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?



Diesel definately. I'd rather not deal with gasoline at all, since I
don't have a gasoline aux or main, I don't want to haul it for a genset.

Standalone would be preferable for me, but either way would work. What
price point are you looking at? Competing with the little and quiet
(although gas) honda's is gong to be tough. But good luck, and please
keep us posted, I for one would be interested.



--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"Human beings can always be counted on to assert with vigor
their God-given right to be stupid."
-- Dean Koontz

Jim Richardson wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:06:11 -0500,
Chuck Cox wrote:
So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

Diesel definately. I'd rather not deal with gasoline at all, since I
don't have a gasoline aux or main, I don't want to haul it for a genset.

Standalone would be preferable for me, but either way would work. What
price point are you looking at?

It'll probably cost about as much as a typical 1 kW genset. If we can't
sell it for under $1k retail, we probably won't bother. Right now our
engineering estimates have the MSRP below that.

Competing with the little and quiet
(although gas) honda's is gong to be tough. But good luck, and please
keep us posted, I for one would be interested.

We have no intention of competing with Honda, we will only proceed with
this project if our market research indicates we have found a true
niche. I see no reason why someone might not have both products for
different purposes.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

Chuck Cox wrote in
t:

We have no intention of competing with Honda, we will only proceed with
this project if our market research indicates we have found a true
niche. I see no reason why someone might not have both products for
different purposes.



You mean like this?
http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Main.html

I know someone who used to own a canvas shop and got the dealership for
this Kubota-tractor-powered little genset. They worked great, turned slow,
and I don't think she ever had one that broke! I see on the webpage they
FINALLY got some belt guards on the fanbelts for the water pump and
generator drive pulleys.....a good thing.

I never heard one in the case, though.

Yes, but at $6K-$7K not under $1K such as these folks are suggesting...for a
much smaller unit.

Glenn.
s/v Seawing
www.seawing.net


"Larry" wrote in message
...
Chuck Cox wrote in
t:

We have no intention of competing with Honda, we will only proceed with
this project if our market research indicates we have found a true
niche. I see no reason why someone might not have both products for
different purposes.



You mean like this?
http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Main.html

I know someone who used to own a canvas shop and got the dealership for
this Kubota-tractor-powered little genset. They worked great, turned
slow,
and I don't think she ever had one that broke! I see on the webpage they
FINALLY got some belt guards on the fanbelts for the water pump and
generator drive pulleys.....a good thing.

I never heard one in the case, though.