Calling into question the alcohol issue is a red herring. That's not
what we're talking about. We're talking about excessive speed and
pollution in quiet anchorages.

Why do you get to dictate what we're talking about; why does the
bad behavior you're willing to talk about only includes excessive speed
and pollution? Both of which are perpetrated by every other shape
and size of power boats besides pwc's.

I am talking about singling out pwc's among boaters at large (not
sailboats)
as being uniquely predisposed to annoying, stupid, dangerous, illegal
behavior; and also
about extending the incidences of such behavior that one has observed,
to make generalizations
about entire segments of the boating community. Doing so (singling out
pwc's, etc.) is just
incorrect, inaccurate, unfair, insulting to me and my many responsible,
safe, educated boating
friends who sometimes ride pwc's, and is also apparently indicative of
blinders that stop somebody
frrom acknowledging the too-large percentages (but still probably,
hopefully, not a MAJORITY) of all segments of the power-boating
community who are guilty of these things...not just pwc'ers.

You say you're not addressing me individually, but I'm not just
speaking in defense of myself, also of ALL the dozens of regular
pwc'ers who I know, talk to and ride with, over the last eight years or
so....we all follow the rules, mind our own business, are
out to have a safe good time, know our stuff out on the water, and do
things with our crafts way beyond your stereotyped
outdated impressions of what people do on pwc's. ALL of them. Don't
you know any pwc'ers personally? If so, do they
all conform to your impressions about how most of us supposedly behave?
Or are you so hardened in your prejudice that yuo
wouldn't even deign to associate with a pwc rider?

It's ONLY the Newbies who do the stupid stuff, I did it when I started
out, but you learn the ropes quickly enough.
TO say that the fact that a person is on a pwc tells you all this about
his personality (I don't know if it was you who said
that, it was said earlier in this thread), that they're egoticstical,
rude, show-offs, unconcerned with others, speed junkies,
is just outrageous and stupid to boot.

IN fact, I'd say the only thing you could deduce about somebody who has
a pwc vs. someone with a bigger boat
is that the pwc guy probably has a little less money. They're
extremely affordable to own and operate, that's the
only reason I have a pwc but not a bigger boat, it's not because of any
particular facet of my personality, except
that I LOVE BEING ON THE WATER, presumably just like YOU and every
other person on this newsgroup.

Sure, we get some powerboats (e.g.,
cigar boats) that zoom around, but not in an anchorage, because they
know better.

Now you're just showing your die-hard, inflexible, anti-pwc prejudice
loud and clear.
You and I kmow that you see not just some but tons of non-pwc power
boats, especially cigarette boaters,
who drive at excessive speeds, are not courteous to other boaters or
seem oblivious to the rules
of the road, and who DRINK WHILE BOATING CONSTANTLY....almost EVERYBODY
out on the
water, EXCEPT pwc'ers, it sometimes seems to me. (I'm not sure why
that is, some of the pwc'ers I know do
drink on land but abstain when they're riding....maybe there's
something about the extra exposed
situation on a pwc, interacting closely and directly with the waves
etc., that makes an experienced operator who knows where he is and
what's going on, feel more involved, less invulnerable, and take the
situation more seriously, than a lot of guys on bigger boats, where the
more enclosed or relaxed feeling makes them feel like they're partying
at their house....I'm just guessing....all I know is that drinking
seems much more prevalent on non-pwc boats.)

By the way....are you saying above that you don't think there are many,
many boaters
in your area who are drinking while they're boating and go untouched by
law enforcement? That it's
all sober out there on the bowriders, yachts, cigarette boats, fishing
boats?

That I'd have to see to believe.

richforman

In article .com,
wrote:
Why do you get to dictate what we're talking about; why does the
bad behavior you're willing to talk about only includes excessive speed
and pollution? Both of which are perpetrated by every other shape
and size of power boats besides pwc's.

I don't know... the tide is heading out? I can't think of anything
positive to say about PWCs. Sorry. The subject of the thread is jet
skis. So, I'm commenting on what I think it appropriate on that
subject.

I am talking about singling out pwc's among boaters at large (not
sailboats)
as being uniquely predisposed to annoying, stupid, dangerous, illegal
behavior; and also

They are and I am. Sorry, but it's a fact. I know you don't want to
acknowledge that there is a huge problem, but there is. That's why
some places have banned them I suppose.

about extending the incidences of such behavior that one has observed,
to make generalizations
about entire segments of the boating community. Doing so (singling out
pwc's, etc.) is just

Well, you've been doing the same thing... feel free to stop saying
that from your observation most PWCers are ok folks who respect
others.

incorrect, inaccurate, unfair, insulting to me and my many responsible,
safe, educated boating
friends who sometimes ride pwc's, and is also apparently indicative of
blinders that stop somebody
frrom acknowledging the too-large percentages (but still probably,
hopefully, not a MAJORITY) of all segments of the power-boating
community who are guilty of these things...not just pwc'ers.

Blinders? I have sails man. Get with it.

Does it have to be a majority of ****heal PWCers? How about 49%? All I
know is that a huge percentage of them drive polluting, noise
machines, and are not interested in quiet enjoyment.

You say you're not addressing me individually, but I'm not just
speaking in defense of myself, also of ALL the dozens of regular
pwc'ers who I know, talk to and ride with, over the last eight years or
so....we all follow the rules, mind our own business, are
out to have a safe good time, know our stuff out on the water, and do

Umm.... I thought we're not supposed to talk about one's
observations. I guess it's ok for you though.

things with our crafts way beyond your stereotyped
outdated impressions of what people do on pwc's. ALL of them. Don't
you know any pwc'ers personally? If so, do they
all conform to your impressions about how most of us supposedly behave?
Or are you so hardened in your prejudice that yuo
wouldn't even deign to associate with a pwc rider?

Never said all. You did.

It's ONLY the Newbies who do the stupid stuff, I did it when I started
out, but you learn the ropes quickly enough.

Only? Come on! It's only the newbie sailors who stupidly go out in bad
weather. It's only the newbie sailors who die trying to cross an ocean
or who's boat breaks because they didn't get around to doing the
maintenance.

TO say that the fact that a person is on a pwc tells you all this about
his personality (I don't know if it was you who said

Tells me a lot... until proven otherwise. It's always a pleasure to
see a PWC not buzzing an anchorage and not going 20 kts too close to a
sailboat.

that, it was said earlier in this thread), that they're egoticstical,
rude, show-offs, unconcerned with others, speed junkies,
is just outrageous and stupid to boot.

Well, you said it. I didn't.

IN fact, I'd say the only thing you could deduce about somebody who has
a pwc vs. someone with a bigger boat
is that the pwc guy probably has a little less money. They're

Bigger? What about a smaller sailboat boat?

cigar boats) that zoom around, but not in an anchorage, because they
know better.

Now you're just showing your die-hard, inflexible, anti-pwc prejudice
loud and clear.

Why's that? Am I not allowed to be annoyed by bad behavior? Who the
f*ck made you god?

of the road, and who DRINK WHILE BOATING CONSTANTLY....almost EVERYBODY

What is up with this drinkin and drivin thing? I just don't get that?
What point are you trying to make?

By the way....are you saying above that you don't think there are many,
many boaters
in your area who are drinking while they're boating and go untouched by
law enforcement? That it's

I'm saying that they are not very obvious if they are drinking and
driving. I'd say that the vast majority don't drink and drive, just
like the vast majority of car owners don't.

That I'd have to see to believe.

Well, you need to get out more... well, I take that back. You have a
PWC.

Oh no... here comes the missing sense of humor.....


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article , Jonathan Ganz
wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:

IN fact, I'd say the only thing you could deduce about somebody who has
a pwc vs. someone with a bigger boat
is that the pwc guy probably has a little less money. They're

Bigger? What about a smaller sailboat boat?

Yeah. Get a sailing dinghy. Not only will it cost less to buy than a
PWC, it'll cost a lot less to run, too, even with a 2HP Honda 4 stroke
outboard.

But people like this one don't do that, because they not only want to
be on the water, they also want to go fast without learning sailing
skills.

cigar boats) that zoom around, but not in an anchorage, because they
know better.

Now you're just showing your die-hard, inflexible, anti-pwc prejudice
loud and clear.

Why's that? Am I not allowed to be annoyed by bad behavior? Who the
f*ck made you god?

of the road, and who DRINK WHILE BOATING CONSTANTLY....almost EVERYBODY

What is up with this drinkin and drivin thing? I just don't get that?
What point are you trying to make?

Here's another take. A small sailboat is moving at 5 knots if you're
lucky. Jetskis top out at over 50 mph. 10X the speed. You need 1/10 of
the time to react to running someone or something over, and any impact
is going to result in an energy transfer *100* times greater for the
PWC than the sailboat. Short form, you could be ****ed as a newt in a
small sailboat and not do anyone or anything much damage. Not so in a
fast power vessel.


By the way....are you saying above that you don't think there are many,
many boaters
in your area who are drinking while they're boating and go untouched by
law enforcement? That it's

I'm saying that they are not very obvious if they are drinking and
driving. I'd say that the vast majority don't drink and drive, just
like the vast majority of car owners don't.

That I'd have to see to believe.

Well, you need to get out more... well, I take that back. You have a
PWC.

Oh no... here comes the missing sense of humor.....

Who gives a rat's, Jon. He has a PWC.

PDW

In article ,
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , Jonathan Ganz
wrote:
Yeah. Get a sailing dinghy. Not only will it cost less to buy than a
PWC, it'll cost a lot less to run, too, even with a 2HP Honda 4 stroke
outboard.

I had a 4HP, 2 stroke on mine. I guess I'm a jet-skier... sigh.

But people like this one don't do that, because they not only want to
be on the water, they also want to go fast without learning sailing
skills.

Amended: boating skills. We wouldn't want to exclude Doug. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I've been gone a week and I notice Rich hasn't had the guts to tackle
this one.

Guess I was spot-on when I said he didn't just want to get out on the
water, he wanted to get on the water AND GO FAST.

Really, he's like Bobsprit except the saving grace with sailboats is
you need some knowledge and skill to operate one, thus keeping Bob
moored to a dock. Any idiot with a credit card can run a PWC, so that's
what you usually get.

PDW

In article , Jonathan Ganz
wrote:

In article ,
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , Jonathan Ganz
wrote:
Yeah. Get a sailing dinghy. Not only will it cost less to buy than a
PWC, it'll cost a lot less to run, too, even with a 2HP Honda 4 stroke
outboard.

I had a 4HP, 2 stroke on mine. I guess I'm a jet-skier... sigh.

Hah, i'm looking at getting a 3 HP for my daysailer.

But people like this one don't do that, because they not only want to
be on the water, they also want to go fast without learning sailing
skills.

Amended: boating skills. We wouldn't want to exclude Doug. :-)

Doug still owns a sailboat and knows a lot more about sailing than I
do. Not, note, that I claim it's a difficult thing to do.....

I am talking about singling out pwc's among boaters at large (not
sailboats)
as being uniquely predisposed to annoying, stupid, dangerous, illegal
behavior; and also

They are and I am. Sorry, but it's a fact. I know you don't want to
acknowledge that there is a huge problem, but there is. That's why
some places have banned them I suppose.

And the fact that a lot of the "problems" are in fact based on
prejudice, personal irrational dislike and outdated stereotypes or just
outdated information about these machines, might be the reason why,
after analytic studies are done, so many of the former bans have been
rolled back, reversed and eliminated.

Can't think of anything positive to say about pwc's? I'll help you out
by pointing this out again: since mandataory boating education and
licensing requirements have been instituted in many states over the
last decade or so, pwc-related accident and injury statistics have gone
down by the year in their states. These regulations have been
promoted and supported by the pwc industry and riding community. What
has any other segment of the power boat community done analogously over
that same period of time to reduce the amount of stupidity and
uninformed dangerous behavior on the water? Have power boaters at
large rallied in support of mandatory education and licensing
requirements for all boats, or do you/they think that this wouldn't be
a good idea for everyone? Are you even aware of any of this, or is it
just more proof that you just don't know anything about the topic at
hand (pwc's).

Nothing good to say about pwc's? Do some research and you'll find that
the ones being manufactured now (and I'm talking about at least the
last 6 model years) have shown to be among the QUIETEST and
CLEANEST-RUNNING and most FUEL-EFFICIENT power boats on the water, as
well as being probably the most affordable, easiest to store and
maintain?

In fact, do you have anything positive to say about boats in general?
Because if so you have something positive to say about pwc's because
THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. THAT is what started me into this whole thread,
the idea that somehow pwc'ers are not boaters, that is the overall
point I started making so emphatically and repeatedly, that WE ARE.
NOt that we're perfect, not that there aren't plenty of idiots among us
just as there are across all segments of the boating world, not that we
don't have problems although we've made TREMENDOUS strides in the time
that I've been around, but simply that we ARE BOATERS, the SAME as
anyone else. Same rules to learn and follow, same things to worry
about, the same passion for being on the water, having outdoor fun with
our friends and families, travelling, cruising, enjoying the
exhiliration of a fast ride...that's it. I refuse to sit at the back
of the bus!

What is up with this drinkin and drivin thing? I just don't get that?
What point are you trying to make?

My point (I don't think it was that hard to discern) is that pwc
operators don't have any kind of lock on stupid, dangerous, illegal,
annoying boating behavior on the water, that all kinds of boats,
whatever their size or shape, are frequently operated by clueless
inconsiderate oblivious idiots....and similarly there are many
responsible, informed, thoughtful, careful, aware operators of both
pwc's and of power boats of other sizes and shapes. Neither of us
knows the exact percentage either way, there are way too many variables
to assign any kind of realistic number, but my position is that it is a
sign of ignorance, nastiness and hardened, long-held, inflexlible,
prejudiced judgements, to make broad sweeping generalizations about any
specific group of boaters based on the size and shape of the boat they
choose (or can afford). Like, I might be tempted to think that all or
most sailboaters are snobby, pretentious, effete, hoity-toit,
self-important blowhards (ha, good one!); or that everybody on a small
fishing boat is a drunken redneck; or that everyone who owns a yacht is
just a rich asshole who preferes to stay high and dry and show off
their wealth; but all of these opinions would actually be stupid and
unfair, and if I tried to pass them off as valid, intelligent
positions, I would expect people from those segments of the boating
world to maybe have their feathers ruffled a bit.

Do you get it now?

I'd say that the vast majority don't drink and drive, just
like the vast majority of car owners don't

Okay, now I know you're kidding. The ratio of boaters drinking on the
water is about the same as that of drivers on the road? I guess it's
obvious that conditions are obviously different between where you boat
and all the many places I've boated....in terms of boaters drinking,
and in terms of pwc'ers being obnoxious and annoying...I guess that
would have to explain the gulf between our respective impressions.

Well, you need to get out more... well, I take that back. You have a
PWC.
Oh no... here comes the missing sense of humor.....

I have a sharper, more developed sense of humor than you, I'm positive
of it; but you don't seem to have made that remark in any kind of
friendly good humor, more out of meanness, like I know you literally
don't want to welcome me onto the waterways where you boat, you have as
much as said so, just based on the size and shape of my boat's hull,
and that's just not right. Hey, once you see me, individually, do
something stupid and obnoxious or dangerous or blatantly inconsiderate
(I"m not sure I'm convinced that "annoying" is enough of a legit
complaint, anyone can be annoyed by anything), then feel free to have
me kicked out of there....but to form an opinion of me and want me out
of there as soon as you see me coming, just based on the fact that I'm
a pwc? It just ain't right.

richforman

In article .com,
wrote:

prejudice, personal irrational dislike and outdated stereotypes or just
outdated information about these machines, might be the reason why,
after analytic studies are done, so many of the former bans have been
rolled back, reversed and eliminated.

Perhaps, but just as much is based on fact and observation.

Can't think of anything positive to say about pwc's? I'll help you out

Typical PWCer... motor mouth. Give us all a break. We don't need 10
paragraphs with your ranting. It really is pretty boring.

Nothing good to say about pwc's? Do some research and you'll find that

See previous comment.

In fact, do you have anything positive to say about boats in general?

Yeah, I like sailboats.

What is up with this drinkin and drivin thing? I just don't get that?
What point are you trying to make?

My point (I don't think it was that hard to discern) is that pwc
operators don't have any kind of lock on stupid, dangerous, illegal,

Who said that have a lock on stupidity. I just said that the issue of
alcohol has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Noise, pollution,
and macho bs.

Do you get it now?

Sure do!

Well, you need to get out more... well, I take that back. You have a
PWC.
Oh no... here comes the missing sense of humor.....

I have a sharper, more developed sense of humor than you, I'm positive

Whoooo... well, ok.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com