The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip
in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts
that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area.

In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position.
I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied
by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here...

But when problems do arise I want to have a choice.
Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a)
waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place...,

So... In order to have this choice, I will have a weapon on board, all
legal, with permits, in a locker thats sealed and locked and I will
undergo without complaints the cumbersome customs-scenes every time I
enter some new territory ....

My question is: what would be a good choice for a weapon ?
I am not a drilled marksman so I guess I'll choose a shotgun, as the
yacht in the aforementioned story had chosen. When I google around a
bit this pump action Mossberg M590A1comes up pretty often. Together
with 00-rounds this would be a helpful combination I guess.

Can anyone add comments, experiences or advice ?
Please feel free to send your answer to my private email if you don't
want to post in this group.

Regards,
Len.

In article 1111317563.a8a0fef5a95910e18e9eaa0f9662aab4@teran ews,
says...
The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip
in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts
that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area.

In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position.
I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied
by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here...

But when problems do arise I want to have a choice.
Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a)
waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place...,

So... In order to have this choice, I will have a weapon on board, all
legal, with permits, in a locker thats sealed and locked and I will
undergo without complaints the cumbersome customs-scenes every time I
enter some new territory ....

My question is: what would be a good choice for a weapon ?
I am not a drilled marksman so I guess I'll choose a shotgun, as the
yacht in the aforementioned story had chosen. When I google around a
bit this pump action Mossberg M590A1comes up pretty often. Together
with 00-rounds this would be a helpful combination I guess.

Can anyone add comments, experiences or advice ?
Please feel free to send your answer to my private email if you don't
want to post in this group.

Regards,
Len.



Can't give you legal but I had a buddy that asked me the same question
for the same reason.

My choice would be a sawed off or short as possible, read that riot gun
which would probably be legal, 12 Ga pump shotgun loaded with #4 bird
shot.

At the ranges found on most boats the shotgun will require no great
feats of marksmanship, the #4 shot will be deadly, and collateral damage
from over penetration would be minimized.

Sawed off or riot gun because a full barreled shotgun would be awkward
to wield in the tight confines of a boat.

You would not be picking them off at any great distance with the gun but
it's be hell on a small boat packed with people when they got up close,
and there isn't any sound quite as intimidating as the one of a shell
being racked into the chamber of a shotgun.

IMPORTANT NOTES

If you should run into circumstance where such force was necessary and
used it but failed to kill or seriously maim all the bad guys or,
unlikely but possible, intimidate them into leaving, when they do gain
control of the boat it is quite possible they may be just a tad put out
with you and inclined to show it.

Really bad bad guys tend to be skeptical of good guys with guns. It's a
moral thing. If you should run into a time when you REALLY REALLY think
you need to use the gun don't do anything stupid like telling them to go
away or you'll shoot or put up their hands. Keep your mouth shut and
start blasting. don't stop till there is no one left standing. You'll
only have five shots in the magazine so practice speed loading.

IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and
out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep
it as your "ace in the hole".

If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll
only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it.

Good luck

--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods

www.heirloom-woods.net

In article . com,
Mike G wrote:

Can't give you legal but I had a buddy that asked me the same question
for the same reason.

My choice would be a sawed off or short as possible, read that riot gun
which would probably be legal, 12 Ga pump shotgun loaded with #4 bird
shot.

Sawed Off in the US means barrel length less than 18", and would not be
legal to own or posses on a US Flagged vessel. 18.25" barrel length
shotguns are vary avalible in the USA, and legal to own and posses.



At the ranges found on most boats the shotgun will require no great
feats of marksmanship, the #4 shot will be deadly, and collateral damage
from over penetration would be minimized.

Sawed off or riot gun because a full barreled shotgun would be awkward
to wield in the tight confines of a boat.

You would not be picking them off at any great distance with the gun but
it's be hell on a small boat packed with people when they got up close,
and there isn't any sound quite as intimidating as the one of a shell
being racked into the chamber of a shotgun.

IMPORTANT NOTES

If you should run into circumstance where such force was necessary and
used it but failed to kill or seriously maim all the bad guys or,
unlikely but possible, intimidate them into leaving, when they do gain
control of the boat it is quite possible they may be just a tad put out
with you and inclined to show it.

Really bad bad guys tend to be skeptical of good guys with guns. It's a
moral thing. If you should run into a time when you REALLY REALLY think
you need to use the gun don't do anything stupid like telling them to go
away or you'll shoot or put up their hands. Keep your mouth shut and
start blasting. don't stop till there is no one left standing. You'll
only have five shots in the magazine so practice speed loading.

Extended Magazine Pump-Action 12 Ga. Shotguns are certainly available
in the USA. This gives the weapon 8 rounds plus one in the Chamber,
which should be enough firepower, to allow for reloading, after the
first baradge at close range.


IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and
out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep
it as your "ace in the hole".

If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll
only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it.

Good luck

--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods

www.heirloom-woods.net


Bruce in alaska an FFL, from way back........
--
add a 2 before @

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G
wrote:


IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and
out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep
it as your "ace in the hole".

If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll
only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it.

Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good
advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and
get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out,
don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down.

Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless
bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera
"Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take.

R.

rhys wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G
wrote:


IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and
out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep
it as your "ace in the hole".

If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll
only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it.


Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good
advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and
get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out,
don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down.

Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless
bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera
"Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take.

R.

Isn't it strange, the distance to which paranoia can press one?

I choose the pen.

If I was a societal engineer, terror would have to be a major tool.

If they are not 'after you', you relax, right? To be competitive,
you need to be scared. A nervous trigger shoots in many directions.

How would you inspire a nation?

At least the RCMP has the guts to admit that they can't defend
against every madman.

Is there a really smart crackpot out there with a plan to kill
everyone in revenge for being teased as a nurd, because he was too
smart, and not smart enough to hide it? Lordy, it get tiresome
pretending to be deaf and stupid.

Unlocked cockpit doors are one thing, where are there other
weaknesses still left ajar?

Oops! don't say it here! The paranoid over reaction could get you
branded as a danger to security. Where is the sweet spot for terror
/ stress / productivity / cost benefit?

Who's managing this situation? Is the oil price high enough for all
you Texans, yet?

I want an electric car. 150 km, 100 km/h, 5 hour recharge is fine.
Bring on the nuclear power. Bury the waste where it came from,
silicated into glass. Let's get to work on solar shingles.

If civilisation dissolves or nukes itself into Einstein's fourth
world war, fought with sticks, and future cave men find purple
glowing glass attractive jewellery, we deserved it. Only Education
gives us any chance at all. Radioactive H2 and H3 can be recycled,
seperated out of watery wastes and that's where it comes from,
anyway. Let's get over this nuclear bull****. There's far greater
danger in gold mines, with cyanide lagoons just waiting for a
typhoon, government controlled schools, and dirty DEW line sites to
clean up. C'mon!

The Japanese electric car Eliica looks like a Citröen, and France
depends on nukes. Where do they tip it?

Overall, BEST weapon for a sailboat: satellite linked security
cameras, or counterfeit warning placards complete with phoney
satellite dome, and a flamethrower disguised as a beer can or vent
cowl, Zippo in hand. Doubt not, a spray of gasoline in the face and
chest from a beer can full of it, accompanied by a deft c'ling,
shcict, poof, and buddy is all lit up!

First, you offer him a real beer, show that he is on live tv, and
his mother might be watching, "Say Hi!", then, you shoot him with
his own gun, after you help him into the water to put out the flames.

All you need is a laptop with a camera, to jab his brains out with a
pen and a line, hook and sinker.

Just keep him unparanoid enough to not worry about guns on boats,
again. You are far more likely to get swindled by a bank or government.

Unless you go looking for trouble.

Terry K

Wow Terry,

That was quite a stream of consciousness! I do agree with you on
the alternate energy sources though, and the oil prices are quite
high enough, thank you. OT/ [with China and India industrializing at
an amazing rate I think the world is finding that we should have paid more
attention to the "energy crises" back in 1973 when it first reared
its ugly head] \OT

As far as guns on boats is concerned, this thread has been hashed,
re-hashed, hashed-over, re-hashed-over, etc. Its in the archives.

Quick summary for latecomers: Having a gun aboard will be quite a hassle
at check-in in many countries you visit. Not declaring it can get you
arrested and your boat confiscated, along with lengthy stays in a
third-world prison. If you declare, many places will sieze your weapon and
hold it for you until you are ready to check out, and it may disappear
during the holding process. In any case it will mean that you have to
come back to the check-in city before departing, and that may be quite
an inconvenience depending on your plans.

As far as the Yemen incident in recent threads, I don't think that your "beer
can" flamethrower would have been much help. Also, the cruiser involved
was fairly lucky in his engagement of multiple AK-47s vs his shotgun.

The question of defensive weapons for yachts is very complicated and
the answer is likely to be highly personal and depend on a lot of
things (such as where you are going to cruise).

YMMV,

Don W.

Terry Spragg wrote:

Isn't it strange, the distance to which paranoia can press one?

I choose the pen.

If I was a societal engineer, terror would have to be a major tool.

If they are not 'after you', you relax, right? To be competitive, you
need to be scared. A nervous trigger shoots in many directions.

How would you inspire a nation?

At least the RCMP has the guts to admit that they can't defend against
every madman.

Is there a really smart crackpot out there with a plan to kill everyone
in revenge for being teased as a nurd, because he was too smart, and not
smart enough to hide it? Lordy, it get tiresome pretending to be deaf
and stupid.

Unlocked cockpit doors are one thing, where are there other weaknesses
still left ajar?

Oops! don't say it here! The paranoid over reaction could get you
branded as a danger to security. Where is the sweet spot for terror /
stress / productivity / cost benefit?

Who's managing this situation? Is the oil price high enough for all you
Texans, yet?

I want an electric car. 150 km, 100 km/h, 5 hour recharge is fine. Bring
on the nuclear power. Bury the waste where it came from, silicated into
glass. Let's get to work on solar shingles.

If civilisation dissolves or nukes itself into Einstein's fourth world
war, fought with sticks, and future cave men find purple glowing glass
attractive jewellery, we deserved it. Only Education gives us any chance
at all. Radioactive H2 and H3 can be recycled, seperated out of watery
wastes and that's where it comes from, anyway. Let's get over this
nuclear bull****. There's far greater danger in gold mines, with cyanide
lagoons just waiting for a typhoon, government controlled schools, and
dirty DEW line sites to clean up. C'mon!

The Japanese electric car Eliica looks like a Citröen, and France
depends on nukes. Where do they tip it?

Overall, BEST weapon for a sailboat: satellite linked security cameras,
or counterfeit warning placards complete with phoney satellite dome, and
a flamethrower disguised as a beer can or vent cowl, Zippo in hand.
Doubt not, a spray of gasoline in the face and chest from a beer can
full of it, accompanied by a deft c'ling, shcict, poof, and buddy is all
lit up!

First, you offer him a real beer, show that he is on live tv, and his
mother might be watching, "Say Hi!", then, you shoot him with his own
gun, after you help him into the water to put out the flames.

All you need is a laptop with a camera, to jab his brains out with a pen
and a line, hook and sinker.

Just keep him unparanoid enough to not worry about guns on boats, again.
You are far more likely to get swindled by a bank or government.

Unless you go looking for trouble.

Terry K

Don W wrote in
:

we should have paid more
attention to the "energy crises" back in 1973 when it first reared
its ugly head] \OT


There was no crises in '73. It was contrived. Every abandoned service
station in SC was overflowing with excess gas/diesel. They just refused to
SELL it to us except to parcel it out a little at a time. A total lie, all
of it.

My uncle in PA flys light planes. He took pictures of loaded oil tankers
offshore of NJ, loaded to the gunwales, long lines of them. All the tanks
ashore were full and it just piled up at sea.

Once Americans got a taste of the power of big oil, big oil could jack up
the prices, a little at a time, and the public just accepted it. We have
no choice, just like Europe.

What ****es me off is my politicians allow Alaskan oil to go to JAPAN!!

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:38:02 GMT, Don W
wrote:


Quick summary for latecomers: Having a gun aboard will be quite a hassle
at check-in in many countries you visit. Not declaring it can get you
arrested and your boat confiscated, along with lengthy stays in a
third-world prison. If you declare, many places will sieze your weapon and
hold it for you until you are ready to check out, and it may disappear
during the holding process. In any case it will mean that you have to
come back to the check-in city before departing, and that may be quite
an inconvenience depending on your plans.

I fully understand this. That's part of why it's a hard decision, but
that decision is determined on the intelligence and local, evolving
situations a foreign yachtie is able to gather about parts of the
world one wishes to sail but where the government and the governed are
perhaps some distance apart...or where the government doesn't much
care if yachts are pillaged and foreigners fed to the sharks.

As far as the Yemen incident in recent threads, I don't think that your "beer
can" flamethrower would have been much help. Also, the cruiser involved
was fairly lucky in his engagement of multiple AK-47s vs his shotgun.

Very much so. One of the arguments for steel boats that isn't often
touched upon. Or kevlar, perhaps G.

The question of defensive weapons for yachts is very complicated and
the answer is likely to be highly personal and depend on a lot of
things (such as where you are going to cruise).

Very true. I see nothing with which to argue here. Perhaps the
seemingly exotic "suppression" weapons (super-loud sound, tasers,
"pain rays") will prove in time to be a better choice than blasting
skinny hoodlums with shot. I think, however, the best idea is to
dissuade them from ever getting within whatever range some miserable
thug possesses. That could mean "you're on Candid Piracy Camera!"
and/or travelling in convoy, and/or announcing on Ch. 16 in the local
tongue that you will defend your home by all means at your disposal.

Could get interesting. Or you could simply never sail near the
innumerable ********s of the world where yacht custom is not
appreciated.

R.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:22:09 -0400, Terry Spragg
wrote:

rhys wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G
wrote:


IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and
out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep
it as your "ace in the hole".

If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll
only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it.


Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good
advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and
get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out,
don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down.

Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless
bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera
"Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take.

R.

Isn't it strange, the distance to which paranoia can press one?

Or prudence. I have faith in the local police and my own abilities to
judge arming myself in the city I live unnecessary and probably
self-defeating. Going up the Red Sea, the north east part of South
America, or Indonesia is another thing entirely. There, the choice
seems to be "avoid entirely" or "consider deterrence".

I choose the pen.

Well, I choose the keyboard, but the principle's the same.

If I was a societal engineer, terror would have to be a major tool.

It is already. The threat of terror is eroding democracy from the
inside out. Certain Western leaders are Osama's henchmen, although I
doubt they perceive that very much.

If they are not 'after you', you relax, right? To be competitive,
you need to be scared. A nervous trigger shoots in many directions.

Hmm. In certain places, it appears that I can be minding my own
business in international waters, being a good little Citizen of the
Sea, and yet local malcontents and brigands will seek me out, rob me
and kill me and my family. What have I got to lose by taking a few of
them with me...in the last extreme, of course. It is possible that
displaying a willingness to fight back will anger the theives even
more. Or perhaps it will send them off to seek easier prey.

The history of high seas piracy is quite instructive here. Somali and
Indonesian pirates don't appear to be different in kind or moral tone
than Barbary pirates or the buccanneers of the Carribbean in the 18th
century.

How would you inspire a nation?

Is that my job?

At least the RCMP has the guts to admit that they can't defend
against every madman.

Neither can I, but organized yacht looting isn't mad, it's just the
most vicious kind of local entrepreneurship.

snipping of rambling discourse

Overall, BEST weapon for a sailboat: satellite linked security
cameras, or counterfeit warning placards complete with phoney
satellite dome, and a flamethrower disguised as a beer can or vent
cowl, Zippo in hand. Doubt not, a spray of gasoline in the face and
chest from a beer can full of it, accompanied by a deft c'ling,
shcict, poof, and buddy is all lit up!

Well, yeah, that AND a 12-gauge disguised as a boat hook. Options are
the sailor's friend.

First, you offer him a real beer, show that he is on live tv, and
his mother might be watching, "Say Hi!", then, you shoot him with
his own gun, after you help him into the water to put out the flames.

The latest in reality television: Torch the Third-world Pirate!

All you need is a laptop with a camera, to jab his brains out with a
pen and a line, hook and sinker.

Just keep him unparanoid enough to not worry about guns on boats,
again. You are far more likely to get swindled by a bank or government.

Why do you think I want to world-cruise in the first place?

Just a question from a novice cruiser but experienced ex-navy world
traveler, why would you want to cruise in areas where you need weapons? I
read about a recent problem in the Red Sea and I wonder what the heck anyone
is doing there. It would seem better to spend time in a nice place rather
then some hell hole where everyone it considering killing you for your boat.
I know that if I had a shotgun or a machine gun I would not bring my wife
and children into that kind of situation. As a single man I have spent time
in many of the really bad parts of the world and had a good time but I would
never do it with my kids. What would be so wrong if you really wanted to
cruise the Phillipines to just hire a couple of armed guards. The same
would probably be possible in Thailand.
"rhys" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G
wrote:


IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and
out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep
it as your "ace in the hole".

If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll
only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it.

Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good
advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and
get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out,
don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down.

Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless
bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera
"Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take.

R.