Marley wrote:

I'd just LOVE to be a fly on the wall and be able to watch anyone who
believes as Armond claims to believe when the coasties board and accuse
him of ~thinking~ of visiting cuba though. Gee, I wonder who would win
that debate? ROTFLMFAO!

Cheers
M

You won't change the mind of any law enforcement officer. He proceeds, then you
defend yourself in court. Arguing with any of them long proved that you can only
worsen his temper and he may stick you with a couple more charges such as
resisting arrest.

And the winner is....

....probably a bunch of lawyers after you spent twice the value of the boat in
debating this through several courts, whichever side wins the case!

;-)

Jean Dufour
Montreal, Qc

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:01:47 -0500, "Jim Carter"
wrote:


Well Armond, you should read the law again. I read it several times and I
have interpreted it to mean that I, a Canadian citizen, and my boat, which
is Canadain registered, will be seized by the US Govermnet Agencies
empowered by this law, if they perceive that I will be travelling in US
waters and my "intent" is to travel from US waters to Cuba.

Yep. If you play Desi Arnaz 78s off Syracuse in a Canadian boat, the
I-68 or whatever the form is called won't protect you if they think
you're contemplating a cigar run. This is why I will not cross the
lake. I do not care to subsidize fanaticism or to risk
state-sanctioned theft because some nautical mall cops thinks I might
be a Commie sympathiser. Well, no, but I do enjoy a Havana Club rum at
the dock on occasion.

So my increasingly lucrative dollars stay here in Soviet Canuckistan
until someone grows a brain and a sense of proportion and respect for
international law.

To me this amounts to Piracy.

Well, any excuse will do with the arrr-yo-ho-ho types.

As the late Bill Hicks noted, the U.S. Feds went in at Waco because
they "had heard of child abuse" (later unsubstantiated). Hicks said
"in that case, why aren't there Abrams tanks flattening half the
Catholic churches in the country?"

Logic doesn't enter into things with governments, particularly
governments that abrogate to themselves extra-territorial powers.

R.

rhys wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:01:47 -0500, "Jim Carter"
wrote:


Well Armond, you should read the law again. I read it several times and I
have interpreted it to mean that I, a Canadian citizen, and my boat, which
is Canadain registered, will be seized by the US Govermnet Agencies
empowered by this law, if they perceive that I will be travelling in US
waters and my "intent" is to travel from US waters to Cuba.


Yep. If you play Desi Arnaz 78s off Syracuse in a Canadian boat, the
I-68 or whatever the form is called won't protect you if they think
you're contemplating a cigar run. This is why I will not cross the
lake. I do not care to subsidize fanaticism or to risk
state-sanctioned theft because some nautical mall cops thinks I might
be a Commie sympathiser. Well, no, but I do enjoy a Havana Club rum at
the dock on occasion.

So my increasingly lucrative dollars stay here in Soviet Canuckistan
until someone grows a brain and a sense of proportion and respect for
international law.

To me this amounts to Piracy.


Well, any excuse will do with the arrr-yo-ho-ho types.

As the late Bill Hicks noted, the U.S. Feds went in at Waco because
they "had heard of child abuse" (later unsubstantiated). Hicks said
"in that case, why aren't there Abrams tanks flattening half the
Catholic churches in the country?"

Logic doesn't enter into things with governments, particularly
governments that abrogate to themselves extra-territorial powers.

R.

Well said Rhys. Well said indeed.

Armond, I hate to say it but yours is a dreamworld interpretation of the
directive. There are a lot of folks who try to find rational
interpretations of for some of the current administration's policies but
then there are folks who swear that Elvis is pumping gas in Arizona too.

You can try to deny it all you want but the directive is what it is and says
what it says and that is that your boat can be siezed if the government
THINKS you MIGHT sail it into Cuban waters and it is up to you to prove them
wrong.
--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

A brief civics lesson:

The White House proclamation is a policy document which gives the
Secretary of Homeland Security the authority to make and enforce
regulations within certain guidelines.

Armed Coasties can't wave this policy document as they storm the boats
of innocent cigar smokers sailing ominously near to Cuba.

What they DO have to comply with and enforce is this document:
http://www.uscg.mil/d7/d7o/mic/regulations.pdf

It took me 2 minutes on Google to find the actual regulations the CG
has to follow. I am not even going to pretend to interpret them for
you; please read it for yourself.

Civics disclaimer: The Secretary can change these regulations at any
time as long as he does so within the President's proclamation.

Jim

"Jim" wrote in message
oups.com...
A brief civics lesson:

The White House proclamation is a policy document which gives the
Secretary of Homeland Security the authority to make and enforce
regulations within certain guidelines.

Armed Coasties can't wave this policy document as they storm the boats
of innocent cigar smokers sailing ominously near to Cuba.

What they DO have to comply with and enforce is this document:
http://www.uscg.mil/d7/d7o/mic/regulations.pdf

It took me 2 minutes on Google to find the actual regulations the CG
has to follow. I am not even going to pretend to interpret them for
you; please read it for yourself.

Civics disclaimer: The Secretary can change these regulations at any
time as long as he does so within the President's proclamation.

Jim

Regardless of content, some will interpret the proclamation as a profound threat
to even those with cigars, charts or cruising guides of Cuba. A certain
canadian with a propensity for waxing political, ad nauseam, coupled with
wishing to be a fly on the wall, hopefully will meet up with a common fly
swatter and thus spare us further BS.

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Armond, I hate to say it but yours is a dreamworld interpretation
of the directive. There are a lot of folks who try to find rational
interpretations of for some of the current administration's
policies but then there are folks who swear that Elvis is pumping
gas in Arizona too.

You can try to deny it all you want but the directive is what it is
and says what it says and that is that your boat can be siezed if
the government THINKS you MIGHT sail it into Cuban waters and it is
up to you to prove them wrong.

For a change of pace lets discuss something germane.

A certain writer whose nationality is not known to me suggested that his
_Canadian_ vessel could be seized while in US waters merely for possessing
Cuban charts. I disagree with this and if you yourself don't also, I'll be
somewhat surprised.

I made no comments about my US-flagged vessel and I certainly rendered no
political opinion. In fact, in the several thousand posts I've written to
this group I've never made a political statement (unless making such a claim
is in itself political). Unless you do a stand-up routine as Karnack on the
weekends, I don't see how you can logically assume _anything_ about my
politics. This of course doesn't mean you're not free to do so here in the
good ole USA, but it does seem a bit out of character in your particular
case.

I certainly don't mind being wrong, because there's always something new to
learn. However I _do_ rather mind having my statements misrepresented,
which is precisely the basis upon which the present discussion is built.
But hey, ya know, sometimes things just happen in newsgroups, don't they?.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Well the Canadians are pretty hacked right now and in a way I don't blame
them. I have a feeling you will be surprised but it is true that under the
directive the USCG or any other federal law enforcement agency CAN seize a
Canadian boat in international waters after transiting US waters that shows
any indication of entering Cuban waters. It can be done and I have a bit
of personal experience with the powers of the USCG that proves it..

I was the only American crew on a French flagged Beneteau enroute from
Martinique to Port Antonio, Jamaica in February 1998. We were clearly in
international waters a little over 20 miles south of Isla Beata on the south
coast of the DR when about 2AM we were hailed by a USCG cutter. We were
then boarded, searched and our log book and navigation notes and charts
examined. The skipper was justifiably upset but atypically for a Frenchman
decided that discretion was the better part of valor considering the cannon
on the cutters foredeck trained on us. I thought the CG was outside its
purview myself so when I got home I did a little research. It turns out
that the USCG can and has seized foreign flagged vessels in international
waters "of interest to the United States" when it is in violation of US laws
or directives. If any contraband had been found they definitely would have
taken the boat into custody. By simple extension a Canadian boat runs a
similar risk.

In short, a Canadian vessel enroute to or returning from Cuba may not enter
US territorial waters without exposing itself to the possibility of seizure
either in US or international waters. That includes after intermediate
stops in the Bahamas, Hispanola and Cayman Islands.

The directive has only one purpose. To keep the older Cuban community in
Florida in the Republican camp.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

OK. You found it. Now read it. Part 107 Sub-part B specifically.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Jim" wrote in message
oups.com...
A brief civics lesson:

The White House proclamation is a policy document which gives the
Secretary of Homeland Security the authority to make and enforce
regulations within certain guidelines.

Armed Coasties can't wave this policy document as they storm the boats
of innocent cigar smokers sailing ominously near to Cuba.

What they DO have to comply with and enforce is this document:
http://www.uscg.mil/d7/d7o/mic/regulations.pdf

It took me 2 minutes on Google to find the actual regulations the CG
has to follow. I am not even going to pretend to interpret them for
you; please read it for yourself.

Civics disclaimer: The Secretary can change these regulations at any
time as long as he does so within the President's proclamation.

Jim

Sir, your experience is OBE!

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:wjs_d.67021$SF.4096@lakeread08...
Well the Canadians are pretty hacked right now and in a way I don't blame
them. I have a feeling you will be surprised but it is true that under the
directive the USCG or any other federal law enforcement agency CAN seize a
Canadian boat in international waters after transiting US waters that shows
any indication of entering Cuban waters. It can be done and I have a bit
of personal experience with the powers of the USCG that proves it..

I was the only American crew on a French flagged Beneteau enroute from
Martinique to Port Antonio, Jamaica in February 1998. We were clearly in
international waters a little over 20 miles south of Isla Beata on the south
coast of the DR when about 2AM we were hailed by a USCG cutter. We were
then boarded, searched and our log book and navigation notes and charts
examined. The skipper was justifiably upset but atypically for a Frenchman
decided that discretion was the better part of valor considering the cannon
on the cutters foredeck trained on us. I thought the CG was outside its
purview myself so when I got home I did a little research. It turns out
that the USCG can and has seized foreign flagged vessels in international
waters "of interest to the United States" when it is in violation of US laws
or directives. If any contraband had been found they definitely would have
taken the boat into custody. By simple extension a Canadian boat runs a
similar risk.

In short, a Canadian vessel enroute to or returning from Cuba may not enter
US territorial waters without exposing itself to the possibility of seizure
either in US or international waters. That includes after intermediate
stops in the Bahamas, Hispanola and Cayman Islands.

The directive has only one purpose. To keep the older Cuban community in
Florida in the Republican camp.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com