"prodigal1" wrote in message
...
Doug Dotson attempted some puerile riposts that got snipped:

I'll repeat myself because it seems like it's slow-learners day on usenet.

try answering a previous question of mine

suggest reasons why all those other countries cited in Michael Moore's
"Bowling for Columbine" have gun violence rates 10-100X lower than the
USA?


Citing Moore doesn;t really lend any credability to you. You hate guns,
that's OK.

Have you seen the film? Answer the question. If you can't do any better
than ad hominem, crack another beer and move on.

It has as much credability as Fahrenheit 911. Moore's credability as a
documentary filmmaker has be discredited over and over.

"prodigal1" wrote in message
...
Greg wrote:

stop the presses!

Getting carried away, with the "everyone" aren't you?

I wish you were as incisive at answering my points as you are parsing my
English. Would "a large majority of Americans" do?

about someone robbing them, invading their homes, "terrorizing"
them- you've been cultured to fear the "other" -you feel you have to
protect yourself at all times- as a result many of you feel it okay

to

have unlimited access to guns-guns-guns and then stand there with
uncomprehending looks on your faces when nice people get hurt with

guns.

Another paint brush swipe. What "uncomprehending" looks?

So then my mistake? People in the States aren't concerned about how it is
that so many Americans are being killed by one another? People in the
States just throw up their hands and go "Oh well...just another
drive-by...just another domestic that got out of control...whoops just
another ****ass punk with a gun he bought for $25...? Too bad for the
dead guy? Is that it?

Where do you get this crap? We here in the States don't look at it that way
at all. But the solution isn't gun control. Just goes to show how the media
in other countries do not accurately represent what goes on over here.


You play while
driving a car, you might crash and die, run with scissors, an electic
socket, boat without life vests or raft/dingy, ditto. You "play" with a
gun, the same. What's to comprehend? Bad things happen in life all the
time, why do you choose to demonize guns?

Because guns when used as designed, kill people. Cars when used as
designed get you from A to B. Scissors cut paper...!! Who said anything
about "playing" with guns?

Right. That's how one is able to protect one's self using one.


try answering a previous question of mine

suggest reasons why all those other countries cited in Michael

Moore's

"Bowling for Columbine" have gun violence rates 10-100X lower than

the USA?

I'm going way out on a limb here and say ----- "People aren't shooting
people!"

d'ya think? and maybe the reason they're not shooting each other is
because....they can't get easy access to guns? Oh wait, if you saw the
film you'd know that in Canada there are more guns per capita than in the
US. Maybe there's something about living in a climate that can kill you
in 20mins in January that causes people to learn to live together.

Rather than grant guns some type of evil powers,

I didn't say that.

I would question why
people in our society are so much more violent. But then, that doesn't
fit in a 30 second sound bite as it forces folks to address a whole
range of issues from broken familys to a society that bends over
backwards to excuse unacceptable behavior.

agreed, but you better watch that have/have-not stuff or you're going to
be critcised as some sort of Liberal deviant that hates America.

Saudia Arabia would chop your head off for murder. No "he wasn't loved"
or "his skin is a different color" or "he was spanked as a child
goodness gracious!".
Just chop chop chop and there you go.

pot-kettle-black you guys are keeping death rows fairly busy too eh

It's so much easier to say GUNS ARE EVIL, pass the legislation and go
home feeling so good about doing --- NOTHING. Then the sick *******s
start knifing people, then using clubs, then poison, then propane tank
bombs, then cars to squish people.

Stats from other countries show support for this idea but the reates of
crime are still far lower. Why is that?

Where do you draw the line? Like Mr. Morris, when it impacts his
convenience and quality of life?
To rehash old info, up to the 50's, you could by guns EVERYWHERE, drug
stores, gas stations, etc. Instead of taking the slack assed lazy way
out, I would start looking at what has changed in the US since that
time that would cause such an increase in violent behavoir - but that
might solve something.

True, but in the meantime doing something like they have here in Canada
about restricting access to firearms in a significant fashion means that
people don't have easy access to deadly weapons. The stats tell the tale.
Handgun based crime in this country is fueled by illegal importation of
these weapons from the US.

By the way, I know a guy that faced a home invasion here in town. He
didn't fall for the "answer the late night knock on the door" and while
returning to his room for his pistol, they kicked the door open. He
returned to the door and started receiving rifle fire from outside and
then a second guy already in the house tried to jump him - but the
target had his pistol. One BG down, the shooter still loose and most
likely plying his trade elsewhere.
The victim now owns about 12 dogs and always carries a concealed
weapon.
Don't underestimate or disregard the impact of violent crime.

But this is my point. Even in a violent city like Detroit, it is the
minority of people who have been victims of stickups, home invasions etc.
Yet the news trumpets the stories and where one person is a victim,
thousands perhaps are made to feel fear and insecurity. Answer: Run for
the gunz. Are they more secure? No. Are their families more at risk
because of the presence of a firearm in the house. Yes.

"prodigal1" wrote in message
...
Greg wrote:

stop the presses!

Getting carried away, with the "everyone" aren't you?

I wish you were as incisive at answering my points as you are parsing my
English. Would "a large majority of Americans" do?

Actually I don't think so. Granted, it is estimated that a majority of
american homes contain handguns, however, only a tiny fraction of people
actually carry one on even an occasional basis. If fear were truly that big
of factor here, the streets of the US would look like an old western movie
or a war zone, and they don't.


about someone robbing them, invading their homes, "terrorizing"
them- you've been cultured to fear the "other" -you feel you have to
protect yourself at all times- as a result many of you feel it okay

to

have unlimited access to guns-guns-guns and then stand there with
uncomprehending looks on your faces when nice people get hurt with

guns.

Another paint brush swipe. What "uncomprehending" looks?

So then my mistake? People in the States aren't concerned about how it is
that so many Americans are being killed by one another? People in the
States just throw up their hands and go "Oh well...just another
drive-by...just another domestic that got out of control...whoops just
another ****ass punk with a gun he bought for $25...? Too bad for the
dead guy? Is that it?

Actually seems like it. It's a good publicity shot for celebs and
politicians, but they don't actually worry about results. Could be because a
"case closed" would end the federal funding . Or it's because most of the
violence of any type is confined to "bad" parts of town and the lower middle
class and up (the voters/complainers) have little first hand experience with
it. If and when is spills over to the good parts of the town, well then the
police move in and clean it up and the trouble goes elsewhere.



You play while
driving a car, you might crash and die, run with scissors, an electic
socket, boat without life vests or raft/dingy, ditto. You "play" with a
gun, the same. What's to comprehend? Bad things happen in life all the
time, why do you choose to demonize guns?

Because guns when used as designed, kill people.

If I recall correctly, handguns about 24% of the time, rifles 27%. Guns are
also fun to shoot cans with, compete in fast draw events, all types of
thing. I could safely claim that 99.9999999999% of all ammo fired in the US
is related to just having fun blowing holes in paper. Excluding the
military, with that majority just being target practice.

My guns sit in a nightstand or closet or in a holster or in my car and
haven't killed anyone. Paper however, has suffered dearly!


Cars when used as designed get you from A to B.

And when traveling down the road and you lean over to get some sugar from
your honey, they spin out of control and off the street you go. So I've
heard....

Scissors cut paper...!! Who said anything about "playing" with guns?

Hence the accidental shootings with "unloaded" guns. Idiots playing.

snip


Saudia Arabia would chop your head off for murder. No "he wasn't loved"
or "his skin is a different color" or "he was spanked as a child
goodness gracious!".
Just chop chop chop and there you go.

pot-kettle-black you guys are keeping death rows fairly busy too eh

No, we don't. It takes over 10 years to execute someone convicted of a
heinous crime here in the US.
You murder someone in S.A., your trial and execution will be over in less
than a month. I know, one of our Air Force buses got shot up by Palastinians
during Desert Storm. The shooter lost his head and each accomplice lost a
limb.
Our system is a joke.


It's so much easier to say GUNS ARE EVIL, pass the legislation and go
home feeling so good about doing --- NOTHING. Then the sick *******s
start knifing people, then using clubs, then poison, then propane tank
bombs, then cars to squish people.

Stats from other countries show support for this idea but the reates of
crime are still far lower. Why is that?

Again, not as violent. Isn't it Sweden where everyone is a reservist and
they even keep machine guns at home - yet crime is very low? Course I can
see why...


Where do you draw the line? Like Mr. Morris, when it impacts his
convenience and quality of life?
To rehash old info, up to the 50's, you could by guns EVERYWHERE, drug
stores, gas stations, etc. Instead of taking the slack assed lazy way
out, I would start looking at what has changed in the US since that
time that would cause such an increase in violent behavoir - but that
might solve something.

True, but in the meantime doing something like they have here in Canada
about restricting access to firearms in a significant fashion means that
people don't have easy access to deadly weapons. The stats tell the tale.
Handgun based crime in this country is fueled by illegal importation of
these weapons from the US.

Guns are now simple to make. You really can't ban them any longer. If crooks
wanted guns and couldn't get them, you can bet that back room machine shops
would start shipping them - or they would be bought elsewhere, as you point
out. You couldn't control the components used to make guns without shutting
down an economy - steel, aluminum, just everyday stuff.


By the way, I know a guy that faced a home invasion here in town. He
didn't fall for the "answer the late night knock on the door" and while
returning to his room for his pistol, they kicked the door open. He
returned to the door and started receiving rifle fire from outside and
then a second guy already in the house tried to jump him - but the
target had his pistol. One BG down, the shooter still loose and most
likely plying his trade elsewhere.
The victim now owns about 12 dogs and always carries a concealed
weapon.
Don't underestimate or disregard the impact of violent crime.

But this is my point. Even in a violent city like Detroit, it is the
minority of people who have been victims of stickups, home invasions etc.
Yet the news trumpets the stories and where one person is a victim,
thousands perhaps are made to feel fear and insecurity. Answer: Run for
the gunz. Are they more secure? No. Are their families more at risk
because of the presence of a firearm in the house. Yes.

My last bit for this thread. (yea! yea!)
If you get a gun, practice with it consistently, and train thru "what if"
scenarios, you WILL be much better prepared to face certain conflict
situations - not all, but a lot. In fact, the confidence you gain makes you
less likely to be a victim, according to the psychologists (most crooks want
sheep). If you get one and throw it into the closet, purse, or car and never
touch it - you are absolutely right, MOST likely it will do you no good at
all. But that depends upon the person. Some are just natural at defending
themselves, others will roll over and die no matter what. (Base upon 6 years
of observation while practicing martial arts.)

And lastly, the personal aspect - the one that I just can't ignore. (Yes,
I'm a bleeding heart conservative.)

If YOU are the person facing a violent situation, be it a woman facing a
rapist or a computer geek (like me) facing a muscle bound street thug with
years or decades of experience hurting people, the statistics be damned. All
that is important is what is about to happen to you - which could very well
be your death or permanent disablement.
I for one will not be the person that would take from you one weapon that
might allow you to escape the fate the bad guy has in store for you. You are
free to do that to yourself, but I won't.

Now to try to recall the question the latest issue of PassageMaker brought
to mind....

Because guns when used as designed, kill people.

I'd better go have a long talk with my gun. It is clearly not striving to
achieve it purpose in life. So far all it has done is put several thousand
holes in paper targets.

Cars when used as
designed get you from A to B.

I don't know about that. According to our media the deadly SUV threat is
more pressing than any gun problems.

Scissors cut paper...!!

According to my doctor, scissors cut flesh. Wow! Better get those killer
scissors out of the hands of surgeons.

you guys are keeping death rows fairly busy too eh

Executions are pretty rare here and getting more rare all the time.

Handgun based crime in this country is fueled by illegal importation of
these weapons from the US.

Still not the fault of the gun. And most handguns are not made in the US.

By the way, I know a guy that faced a home invasion here in town. He
didn't fall for the "answer the late night knock on the door" and while
returning to his room for his pistol, they kicked the door open. He
returned to the door and started receiving rifle fire from outside and
then a second guy already in the house tried to jump him - but the
target had his pistol. One BG down, the shooter still loose and most
likely plying his trade elsewhere.
The victim now owns about 12 dogs and always carries a concealed
weapon.
Don't underestimate or disregard the impact of violent crime.

Being on the receiving end of such a crime will definately change ones point
of view.

But this is my point. Even in a violent city like Detroit, it is the
minority of people who have been victims of stickups, home invasions etc.
Yet the news trumpets the stories and where one person is a victim,
thousands perhaps are made to feel fear and insecurity. Answer: Run for
the gunz. Are they more secure? No. Are their families more at risk
because of the presence of a firearm in the house. Yes.

Good point!

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:25:30 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

Because guns when used as designed, kill people.

I'd better go have a long talk with my gun. It is clearly not striving to
achieve it purpose in life. So far all it has done is put several thousand
holes in paper targets.

Cars when used as
designed get you from A to B.

I don't know about that. According to our media the deadly SUV threat is
more pressing than any gun problems.

In the US, cars, cigarettes, overeating and alcohol kill many times
more people each year than guns.

Regardless of the intent of the designer, many things kill


Weebles Wobble
(but they don't fall down)

Dear Bob, We have no guns on board. We sailed our 42 foot ketch to
France last June and my breath was my only weapon. While on this side
of the Atlantic we keep the boat in Tortola BVIs. Hope this was
helpful.
Vincent LoRusso

Hello Vincent,

As of 230730EST there are over 150+ responses to our original post from
people who did not read it.

You read it. Thank you.
Bob

Major snippage...

Because people do deed, not the tool.

Like this...

http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.asp...id=30596&bw=hi

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:08:32 -0500,
prodigal1 wrote:
Doug Dotson wrote:
"prodigal1" wrote in message
...

Prof. Irwin Corey wrote:

Just to add to this...

snip

But for home or boat defense, a 12 gauge shotgun is an infinitely better
choice. More likely to hit something vital. If only we could conceal
carry shotguns!

oooohhh
be afraid
be very afraid!!!

what a great way to live


Beats being dead.


false dilemma
death obviously isn't the only other option
I'm not armed, and I don't live in fear
my comment is about the fear that permeates American society


I have a half dozen fire extinguishers aboard Windwalker, that doesn't
mean that I live in abject fear of a fire.

--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
The race isn't always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong,
But it's the safest way to bet.