Amazing little critters, those friendly bacteria!

Seriously, thanks for the info. I've been thinking about it since I saw
the show (why, I have no idea) and you certainly cleared up my questions.

Take care,

Eisboch

Peggie Hall wrote:
Terry Spragg wrote:
I empty mine by...opening the "Port / Sea" through hull valve,
closing the vent lines ball valves and then, after donning my lucky
shower cap, safety goggles, filter mask and raincoat, pressurise the
tank...

Suuuure you do, Terry...and you're always offshore at least 3 miles to
do it, too.

Being offshore has nothing to do with this technical matter.

Besides, I do not dump "ballast" casually. When neccessary, I wait
for night, and an outgoing tide. The system is capable of the
behavoir described, and preserves options, including about a grand
in the bank, considering the alternatives.


However, on the off-chance that you AREN'T pulling our leg, it may not
be the dumbest idea I've heard this year, but it's a contender--an
excellent way to crack a tank...or worse.


Thank you. I sent you the plans for this system over 3 years ago, I
think. You didn't like it then, either. Scaredy cat. I take no
offense, it's an understandable fear.

I built the tank in poly glass and epoxy for about 50 bucks in
materials, plus leftover scraps, etc. It has been pressure tested to
a head of 4 feet, with no signs of cracking, or even swelling. It
has been frozen to -30 odd degrees, with some water remaining
inside, undamaged due to it's shape, in a purposeful test. It's 1/4"
thick, except on the top, for a reason. I do not fear a poop bomb in
the slightest, especially since, after all, we each harbour hundreds
of square feet of internal surface in our gut that are very happy
indeed with the presence of semi processed food, the only portion of
which being released from our bodies is essentially inert and
useless to us except for benign bacteria in healthy people, with
most of the active materials being resorbed by the process of
ailimentation, upon which our lives depend. The castoff nourishes
the greater biosphere, which would perish without it. It is shameful
to poison it.

We must learn to love our digestive symbiots, as they love and need
us. Our lack of success so far is no reason to give up.

Our poop is pure gold to the external world, ambrosia to the soil,
emotive arguements notwithstanding. Well, mine is, I don't know
about yours.

This is not an effective method for damaging any reasonable tank or
pipes. If it were effective in any wise, that tank would have been
due to crumble into dust, anyway, and I would rather watch it
explode while purging it than have it disintegrate unnoticed at sea
or moored unattended. It gets pumped up to about 4 pounds of
pressure on relatively infrequent occasions, so far with no mishaps.
You should be wishing me good luck!

I'm the guy who actually keeps his pooper through hull closed, most
of the time.

As a roadie tech for rock 'n roll bands including my own, I, and all
of similar ilk, agree that if it's easy to break, I don't want it
anyway. Bust it if you can. Be prepared.

Those with an interest in commercially "legal" current defecatory
receptacles have an interest in maintaining the status quo, and
press their disagreeable cases to the maximum extent so as to
protect their market share. Peggy, I believe you are a little
conventional in this regard, having at least a personal bias, apropo
simple habit and possibly genuine misplaced concern and fear for my
health.

I *am* pulling whatever legs are presented, in that I do not bother
with the personal protective gear to which I previously alluded. It
is unneccessary. The rest is truth.

The system works, is independant of the scandals revolving around
marina suction style pumpouts, regulations and availability, and is
convenient and cheap. Millions of RV users dump out at mall plazas,
every year. Why not my boat? What I really need is a pipe thread cut
into the pooper through hull and a chunk of old firehose, for max
convenience and lowest pressure dump. I see no reason why I
shouldn't use my boat and it's facilities on it's trailer as an RV.

How do most boaters handle their head's effluent problem? Thousand
dollar "legal" chewy pumps in stain-less steal, rotting in their
personal plumbing miasmas, with few pumpouts available, many of
those broken, or of restricted availability, or expensive? Most
cannot dump out cheaply, easily or freely at a mall RV plaza, but
with this, they could. Our local mall has dozens of RVs parked in
the parking lot every morning, waiting for the mall doors to open.

The stupid and inhumane failure of downtown authorities to provide
adequate public facilities for fear of attracting "undesirables" has
promoted suburban retail malls to premiereship in the mass
travelling shopping public market, even amongt those who travel on
foot.

Where do the homeless "go"? Need we, should we, restrict this
freedom to wander at will, forcing them into "homes" and lifestyles
they do not want?

Tourism is one of the leading leisure industries ashore, but is not
so easy afloat. Most boats are small, not yachts, and all require
that some form of facilities be available. I offer a system that
could serve conveniently and cheaply those who would enjoy such an
advance. Nobody promotes it because it does not offer them a way to
bilk the public.

I prefer to deal reasonably and responsibly with my boat's effluent
in my own way.

Damn the torpedoes! Fame as an unsuccessful poop bomb builder is
better than no fame at all.

Terry K

Wow! Sure feels good to vent. -tk

Eisboch wrote:

Amazing little critters, those friendly bacteria!

Seriously, thanks for the info. I've been thinking about it since I saw
the show (why, I have no idea) and you certainly cleared up my questions.

You watched it for the same reason I was so fascinated with the one they
did on airport runway construction and how much different and more
complex it is than highway construction...and remember it every time I
fly anywhere. Also love the one they did on the west coast coastal
highway and bridge construction. Why? D'd if I know...it's just interesting.


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Terry Spragg wrote:

Suuuure you do, Terry...and you're always offshore at least 3 miles to
do it, too.

Being offshore has nothing to do with this technical matter.

No...but it is a legal matter. Environmental concerns MAY be
debatable...but all it takes is one person who objects to your actions
to see you doing it to bring you to the attention of law
enforcement...and that can cost you BIG bucks.


Besides, I do not dump "ballast" casually. When neccessary, I wait for
night, and an outgoing tide. The system is capable of the behavoir
described, and preserves options, including about a grand in the bank,
considering the alternatives.


However, on the off-chance that you AREN'T pulling our leg, it may not
be the dumbest idea I've heard this year, but it's a contender--an
excellent way to crack a tank...or worse.


Thank you. I sent you the plans for this system over 3 years ago, I
think. You didn't like it then, either. Scaredy cat. I take no offense,
it's an understandable fear.

I built the tank in poly glass and epoxy for about 50 bucks in
materials, plus leftover scraps, etc. It has been pressure tested to a
head of 4 feet, with no signs of cracking, or even swelling.

It's not necessarily your tank I worry about...it's what's likely to
happen to the typical tank on most boats if the same idea were applied
to it.

Those with an interest in commercially "legal" current defecatory
receptacles have an interest in maintaining the status quo, and press
their disagreeable cases to the maximum extent so as to protect their
market share. Peggy, I believe you are a little conventional in this
regard, having at least a personal bias, apropo simple habit and
possibly genuine misplaced concern and fear for my health.

I have no personal biases, nor concern for your health either...and have
always been open to new ideas. My only concern is whether they'll work
for at least 99% of the boating population. Too many boat owners don't
even know how to flush a marine toilet correctly, and think replacing
the joker valve is the solution to every toilet problem including a
blocked tank vent...they don't even know what "head pressure"
means--they think it has something to do with the toilet.

Besides, why anyone want to go through all that instead of just opening
a thru-hull and pumping a manual pump about 4x is a mystery to
me...unless you just want to be different.

Btw...manual and electric overboard discharge pumps are either bronze or
plastic...I've never seen a metal one. And as for pumping out at an RV
dump station...plenty of trailer boat owners do it. It's a relatively
simple matter to replace an overboard thru-hull with one that's threaded
to accept a macerator pump or hose fitting...the rest is easy.

Wow! Sure feels good to vent. -tk

Even though little of it had to do with the subject.



--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 04:58:33 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

Terry Spragg wrote:


I empty mine by...opening the "Port / Sea" through hull valve,
closing the vent lines ball valves and then, after donning my lucky
shower cap, safety goggles, filter mask and raincoat, pressurise the
tank...


Suuuure you do, Terry...and you're always offshore at least 3 miles to
do it, too.

However, on the off-chance that you AREN'T pulling our leg, it may not
be the dumbest idea I've heard this year, but it's a contender--an
excellent way to crack a tank...or worse.


I have an old boat which came with a y-valve so the holding tank could
be bypassed. I changed that so the head always flushes into the tank.

I then put a T in the pumpout line with a bilge pump on the new branch
leading to the former dumping seacock. When over 3 miles offshore,
which is frequent for us, I just open the seacock and pump.

Shoreside pumpout works normally, holding the check valves closed in
the bilgepump.




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Does one child rape really change Strom Thurmond's lifetime record?
For better or worse?

Windjammer wrote:
"Peggie Hall" wrote


Btw...manual and electric overboard discharge pumps are either bronze or
plastic...I've never seen a metal one.


Wow! I thought bronze was a plastic

Ooops...typing fingers got ahead of my brain! I means to say I'd never
seen any made of any OTHER metal. Salt and urine are just too corrosive
for any metal except bronze to survive very long.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 04:58:33 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:


Terry Spragg wrote:



I empty mine by...opening the "Port / Sea" through hull valve,
closing the vent lines ball valves and then, after donning my lucky
shower cap, safety goggles, filter mask and raincoat, pressurise the
tank...


Suuuure you do, Terry...and you're always offshore at least 3 miles to
do it, too.

However, on the off-chance that you AREN'T pulling our leg, it may not
be the dumbest idea I've heard this year, but it's a contender--an
excellent way to crack a tank...or worse.



I have an old boat which came with a y-valve so the holding tank could
be bypassed. I changed that so the head always flushes into the tank.

I then put a T in the pumpout line with a bilge pump on the new branch
leading to the former dumping seacock. When over 3 miles offshore,
which is frequent for us, I just open the seacock and pump.

Shoreside pumpout works normally, holding the check valves closed in
the bilgepump.




Rodney Myrvaagnes

That's about what I do, but I pump it my way, from the top, pushing
in air insteasd of pulling out the "ballast." The head always
flushes into the tank, unless I open the port / sea valve and close
the tank vent lines, in which case, it goes overboard. One is
tempted to use a checklist. I suppose it's time to renew the
instruction books. It boils down to flipping a few switches in
sequence. It could be electrified and made automatic, even put on a
timer. Too much trouble.

The reason I wanted to do it my way was so I didn't have a pump used
for poo lying around, or dedicated to such occasional use, or
needing cleaning. Besides, I had all the stuff on hand, except for
the plastic vent line ball valves, about 15 bucks. I don't even need
clamps on the vent hoses, the pressure is so low the barbed fittings
do just fine without them. Non the less, I did install clamps, so
stuffing sneakers or whatever into spaces near the tank under the
V-berth couldn't pull anything loose.

I certainly cannot justify about a grand (Canadian) to "go" the
other way.

I do not recommend breaking your local regulations, but tidal
flushing carries much more than a little natural runoff, not only
from pulp mills, farms, and cottages, but also from millions of
fish. It's natural, even essential to the ecology, unless it's
overdone, say like in Noo Yak, or Bawston. Mind, emergencies are
emergencies, exacerbated by a local lack of facilities, indicitive
of a lack of local demand or any serious requirement to alleviate
messy situations.

I am on a mooring with my nearest niegbours a mile away, except for
about 50 cows in the shoreside pasture downstream. The saint John
river is a very large river, and we are in the tidal estuary. We
daysail, except for an annual week or two of cruising.

Who would dare suggest I was anything like the problem, well known,
of local industrial and municipal polluters? Laws must be enforced
equally, not selectively, and town and cities seem to get away with
it every time it rains hard. It would be discriminatory to chase me
and not the local mayor, knowing, even designing the undersized
systems they use to save money.

Would it be reasonable to declare an entire city unfit for
habitation because of inadequate sewers? That is the logic of it. I
cannot understand how "ethical" politicians can pass such stupid
laws. Perhaps they are hoping someone will sue, so they can justify
raising taxes?

I have a right to campaign against them and their hypocritical
"conventional wisdom." I believe we must all adopt different methods
ashore, like composting toilets, or some uncommon better ideas. This
would relieve legal pressure on boaters to defecate legally over the
side.

What the hell are national banks for, if not to finance common
defense against enemies like disease, and internal stimulation of
local industry, while improving infrastrucure, or mental health?
Who cares if the price of imported oranges might rise?

Terry K

Windjammer wrote:
Peggie,

I agree that this would not work for everyone, but it is not that bad an
idea. Many holding tanks would be capable of handling a small internal
pressure.

In my own case, the tank is solid fibreglass with a 1/2" well secured
"Starboard" cover. A calculation would have to be done on the cover because
it is the weakest part - It is well secured around the edge, but does span
about 30" in places. The fibreglass part of the tank is as strong as many
small boat hulls and well capable of handling some pressure.

My tank will self drain to about 1/3 full which leaves about 10" to
displace - this would take a pressure of about 0.36 psi to empty. I imagine
that many tanks see a higher vacuum than -0.36 psi when being pumped out, so
would probably handle this quite easily.

To do this, I could stuff a little putty or ?? into the vents, then use a
cheap air pump with a gauge to slightly pressurize using the pumpout
connection.

All this of course while offshore only!

Terry may or may not have been serious, but sometimes there are good ideas
that don't follow conventional practices. Keep an open mind - A system
designed to work this way would eliminate the need for a macerator pump -
one less expensive electrical item to go wrong.

GM



I'm very serious, except for the requirement to wear protective
gear. I take it you calculated your pressure requirement. I was
unable to measuer the pressure requirement with my tire gague, it's
so low.

I used plastic ball valves in the vent lines and a shraeder valve
"line flush adapter" RV accessory for the air connection, screwed
into an automotive radiator flush adapter. The first time, I used
wooden tapered plugs to seal the ventlines, another piece of
equipment every boater should carry.

The cost of a macerator pump is, of course, the main motivation.

Terry K

Peggie Hall wrote:

Hi Eisboch...

I have been using Raratan KO now for a couple of years on my boat and
have been satisfied with it. However, the heads are Vac-U-Flush
units and I typically have a pumpout every week or so therefore it is
hard to judge how effective the KO treatment is.

The type of toilet has nothing to do with what happens in a holding
tank...the only thing ANY toilet can do is move waste from the bowl to
the tank. However, whether pumping out every week makes any difference
depends on the size of the tank.


Recently I was watching "Modern Marvels" on the History Channel and
the show was describing a huge waste water treatment plant. Several
large containers - basically huge holding tanks - called "Digestors"
are used to process the waste water. The Digestors are charged with
live bacteria that eats up the solids - similar to how KO is
advertised to work.

The digestors were described as being heated to 120 degrees to
activate the bacteria. Without the heat it would take years for the
bacteria to reduce the solids according to the show narrator.

I saw the same show. There are all kinds of bacteria, specifically
cultured to accomplish different things.Most can't stand temperatures
above 120 F--in fact, 120 F is the temperature at which milk is
pasteurized. But there are "hardier" strains specifically cultured to
withstand slightly higher temperatures. You also have to remember that
these TV shows are aimed at a mass market that doesn't have (or need) an
in-depth bio-chemistry education...so it's also entirely possible that
the tanks are only heated to 119.7--barely below the temp that's lethal
to bacteria...which producers of a show like Modern Marvels would round
off to 120. There's enough material in "not all bacteria are the same
and how different strains function" for at least two more similar shows!

Onboard sewage consists only of organic matter (body waste) and flush
water...anything that can do down a drain--including storm drains--ends
up in a sewage treatment plant...not only organic matter, but petroleum,
chemicals, rubber, plastics...you name it--if it can be flushed down a
toilet or a drain, it is...and it all has be broken down and separated
as part of sewage treatment. Sewage treatment doesn't completely
emulsify everything either...the goal is turn as much as possible into
liquid that's discharged...the remaining sludge is carried away to be
spread on lands owned by sewage treatment plants.

Why do they heat it? Because bacterial activity increases or decreases
with temperature...the warmer it is, the more active they are and the
faster they multiply, till the temp gets high enough to kill 'em (which
is why holding tank odor is more a problem in hot weather than in cold
weather). Conversely, the colder they are, the more sluggish they
become...going dormant below 40 F. The increase/decrease in bacterial
activity/mulitiplication is not a straight line, though...if you saw it
charted on graph, it would be fairly flat from 40 F through somewhere in
the mid-70's...then start to rise sharply with every degree. So the
objective in a sewage treatment plant is to heat the tanks to JUST BELOW
the temp that would start to kill the bacteria to make the li'l buggers
the most active they can be, to get as much done as quickly as possible.

Is Raratan KO effective without heating the tank?

Yes. The bacteria in KO multiplies at the same rate as the bacteria in
waste...so yes, it's affected by temperature, same as any other
bacteria. It's cultured to work at ambient temperature, which inside the
tank rises and falls with the temp of the flush water...solar heat or
onboard heat warming the boat, or heat from engines if the tank is in
the engine room etc.

I noticed on the
bottle that it warns against storing below 40 degrees...

It also warns against storing where the temperature can rise above
110...for instance, in your car or a dock locker in the sun in which
solar heat can produce temperatures close to 200 F...even higher.

so I assume
the bacteria is temperature sensitive.

All bacteria is...but when it comes to preventing odor, oxygen is the
"key ingredient" at any temperature...which is why those big tanks in
sewage treatment plants are also aerated.

Further, the bacterial action, similar to composting, generates
considerable heat. If the tank is insulated efficiently, it might
require cooling of some sort. Making wine is a similar type of
thing, and the yeast employed works much better at close to 75
degrees, but dies above 80.

Composting can generate a lot of heat, that's why compost heaps
continue to work over the winter, even though the outside
temperature may be very cold.

Terry K

WaIIy wrote:

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:30:08 -0300, Terry Spragg
wrote:


I am on a mooring with my nearest niegbours a mile away, except for
about 50 cows in the shoreside pasture downstream. The saint John
river is a very large river, and we are in the tidal estuary. We
daysail, except for an annual week or two of cruising.

Who would dare suggest I was anything like the problem, well known,
of local industrial and municipal polluters? Laws must be enforced
equally, not selectively, and town and cities seem to get away with
it every time it rains hard. It would be discriminatory to chase me
and not the local mayor, knowing, even designing the undersized
systems they use to save money.


All your bull**** excuses don't make it right.

Ah, you're just jealous because you can't crap at all. That, or you
are a millionaire with a new hypersonic turd disintegrator /
steriliser with chrome dust covers on your boat, bought and paid for
with your unearned inheritance.

Right or wrong depends on what is actually done, not on what might
be done. As if crapping near water was some sort of mortal sin! If
it is there's gonna be a lot of fish in hell. That's millions of
fish. Many millions, and a few stupid people who can't be bothered
to really think. You can't blame the fish.

I think you all just want to keep the "lower classes" off of the
water that you think belongs to you, by making crapping illegal
without expensive equipment, inspections and license bribes paid to
the cappo dos crappies. Almost every coastline settlement has
similar problems caused by inadequate sanitation systems, starved
for funding by warmongers. Talk about priority shifts, mission
drifts, and exit strategies! The government is supposed to serve
the common people, not their rich industrial buddies. Now there's a
moral arguement about right and wrong for you, along with the
arguement that would require you to do some real original thinking
work about these things instead of swallowing the foolishness and
lies it is convenient for the "officials" to expurgate down your
silly moronic gullet.

Don't forget, the most modern humanist teaching sponsored and forced
down our kid's throats by social engineering politicians is that
there is no such thing as right, wrong, or morals, but only
pragmatic circumstances. Wouldn't want to get out of lockstep, would
we, now, "WaIIy?" How DO you pronounce that?

The topic concerned effective methods of emptying the holding tank,
not wether or not is should be criminal to do so in inappropriate
circumstances.

Poop doesn't make people slip, people stepping in poop makes them
slip (and it disturbs the cow patties;-) Did you ever take a ride on
a cow pattie? On a real big, fat, dinner plate sized wet and gooey
cow pattie with thin skin dried on top? I did, once. It's quite an
education, and not toxic at all.

I admit to a venting paroxysm, regarding stupid politicians and
stupid laws and hypocritical selective enforcement of commercial
marina pumpout requirements, but that is all. I do not advocate
frequent or careless pollution of my own front yard, or yours.

Besides, turds are like vitamin pills for the dirt from which we all
spring, upon which we all stand, from which we all eat, and into
which we all will return. Proud or afraid, s'truth, it's good for
us. We shouldn't misuse it. It has a natural function, undeniable
and unavoidable.

What is interesting is how come it's OK for 50 cows, herded there by
a farmer / feedlot industrialist to crap next to my front yard and
in the intra tidal zone, but I may not do the same?

The cows don't seem to mind much, and frankly, "WaIIy", it doesn't
bother me much, either. It's *only* about 50 cows, mind. I have
never noticed any strikingly unusual ****tiness, except from you and
a few other silly devils who's names I shall not evoke.

I suppose you think it's better to dispense antibiotic poisons along
with your fecal contributions to my ecology, thus contributing to
the evolution of more pathological frankengerms, while padding the
wallets of those drug dealer friends of politicians who would insist
I must become addicted to their brand of poison and unneccessary,
expensive, mechanical dispensers?

They also want you addicted to their "security" and tetracycline
"growth hormone" polluted beef. Soon, all cows will be dependant,
unable to survive even their own artificially mutated
simbiots-cum-poisons, like frankengrains are being developed so
natural food will become illegal, even extinct, and more profitable.

I am not paranoid, there really is a stew of plots out there.

Terry K
-Yes, it shure feels good to jest let 'er go regardless,
sometimes. Politeness be damned. Y'ever notice how 'polite' and
'politics' seem so similar and dissimilar at the same time?