Bum Steer - rudder gland question

Hi, all,

My rudder post is badly pitted in the area near the packing gland. The pits
cut the teflon flax packing and, eventually, no amount of tightening will
prevent water running through, and, all along, more comes than it should.

If you're interested, you can see what I mean about the pits by clicking the
gallery link below, and then clicking through the 2011 refit and rudder
project. I've got pictures of everything to this point; see my
dissatisfactions below...

Dropping the rudder isn't a good option, so even if in the unlikely event
(because I've already been doing exploratory searching - if I were SURE a
shop could handle it, I'd drop it) I could find some machine shop which
could attack the problem by grinding, welding, and then cutting back to
size, I did the best I could, which was to thoroughly clean the pitted area,
including an acetone wash, and then apply epoxy in and over the pits. That
was followed by reducing all the excess epoxy to the level of the good
metal.

I'm not concerned about the strength of the post, as it's solid 2" SS rod.
That there are 1/2" keyways cut in the top of it - 2 for 6 inches, and one
of them continues for over a foot - suggests that it could easily work at
only 1.75" - Waaay less than the bottom of the worst pit.

The pits didn't fill entirely with epoxy, but it's a lot less cavities
and/or much more shallow than were present before. However, I'm sure that
some of the same problem would remain - the pits would chew up the teflon
flax, albeit at a slower rate, and we'd be not much better off. I went back
and did it again, letting the epoxy thicken a bit before application

What you see with the blue tape and the vaseline was to prevent epoxy from
sticking to the tube. Unfortunately, I didn't make a dam with it, and a
fair amount dribbled into the tube. Aggressive working of the rudder, back
and forth, from stop-to-stop (far more than the steering mechanism takes it,
enabled by the steering being off) scrubbed all the resistance off, helped
by a few drops of 3-In-One oil as I went, and it now turns freely. So, the
second time, I did a couple of things differently:

First, of course, I wire brushed it again to scuff up the epoxy which is in
the pits so far. Then I made sure that the vaseline made a dam around
the entire bottom. And, finally, I didn't put any epoxy on until it was a
great deal thicker than it was the first time. We're in "warm" weather, but
far from "hot" - so the slow hardener I have gives me a lot of time to work
with it - but also a lot of time to wait until it's more viscous.

It actually took three times to get it to where I'm happy with the fill
level. With any luck, that will hold in place. But the nature of the beast
is that either the tube was too big, or has worn over the years, so the
shaft isn't tight against the sides, even with my centering the rudder. That
makes for some pressure points (as the lever-action weight of the rudder
moves the shaft against the packing in different areas), which I'm sure will
eventually make the gland leak more than it should.

However, I've had identical suggestions, separately, by two very
knowledgeable sources, to pack the gland with heavy grease, as well as the
5/16" teflon flax I've just repacked it with. Both suggested drilling and
tapping to allow insertion of a zerk. However, as you may be able to see
from the pictures, that would be difficult at best, would inevitably hit the
post in order to get deep enough, and likely the only possible point would
be very near the bottom, suggesting that most of it would come out at the
hull, rather than going back up the tube. So, instead...

I had to take everything off the top - a major steering assembly, autopilot
and rudder position indicator arms, and the packing nut - to get to the area
I was working on effectively, so it will be an easy proposition to get
access for the 1" of vertical height x ~1/4 inch of grease which I can lay
on without having it start squishing into other spaces before my threads on
the packing nut engage.

The grease will get forced down the stern tube, and, I'm sure, until I get
it very tight, up the flax cylinder which makes up the actual bearing. It's
been suggested that if this area - under the packing gland, in the stern
tube, and into the flax as well - is solid grease, with the very slow turn
rate of the rudder post, there will be no "tight" or friction issues due to
lack of water, and not the first drop of water will ever make it out of the
gland.

So, my first question is:

Have any of you done this, and if so, to what result? Does it, in fact,
inhibit the passage of water due to the pressure of water further packing
the grease against the shaft, or does it just make an ungodly mess either
before, during, or after use and during packing replacement on the next time
around? I have visions of grease slowly working its way through and out the
top, making it very sloppy under our bed, which is where the rudder post
lives, VERY inaccessibly when the steering is attached, and then,
eventually, letting water through, however that might be...

Related, if this is such a big and easy success, why is it that rudder tubes
don't arrive with these zerks and instructions on how to use them??? Of
course, mine would be without the zerk, but I can't see that grease could go
anywhere other than out the top if it were needing replacement (it would
float, let alone be held up by pressure, so not go out the bottom other than
by overflow when greasing), and, if the packing were AT ALL tight, I would
expect it wouldn't make it through, the viscosity of the grease being so
much more than water.

Finally, if you've done this, what grease did you use?

A second suggestion, by a merchant mariner who swears his crew did it on
many different occasions on a variety of rotating shafts which were pitted
is this: Take a very hard plastic tube of the right ID such that it can be
tightly slipped over the rudder post. Turn it down to a size which will
accommodate passage through the packing gland. Lubricate with a very light
lube and slip it down onto the pitted area. Reinstall packing and tighten.

He claims that the sleeve, being relatively softer than the metal, takes the
beating and the pits fill up with the plastic, while the packing gland keeps
it all tight but allows the post to turn - and it lasts for years.

My mind can't quite wrap itself around that, in that I can't see how the
hard plastic will do a better job than teflon flax packing at keeping the
water in - it seems to me the water would be more easily able to come up
through the pits with plastic against it rather than the packing material.

Further, as the first set of pix currently up in the gallery will show, the
pits in the area contacted by the packing were, indeed, full of packing
(until I cleaned them out) - so, apparently, filling the pits with something
else isn't the entire answer.

So, in this case, have any of you ever actually done THIS type of
workaround, and, does it, indeed, work?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any
kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now.
Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.

- Etienne Griellet

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Bum Steer - rudder gland question

Hi, all,

My rudder post is badly pitted in the area near the packing gland. The
pits
cut the teflon flax packing and, eventually, no amount of tightening
will
prevent water running through, and, all along, more comes than it
should.

If you're interested, you can see what I mean about the pits by clicking
the
gallery link below, and then clicking through the 2011 refit and rudder
project. I've got pictures of everything to this point; see my
dissatisfactions below...

Dropping the rudder isn't a good option, so even if in the unlikely
event
(because I've already been doing exploratory searching - if I were SURE
a
shop could handle it, I'd drop it) I could find some machine shop which
could attack the problem by grinding, welding, and then cutting back to
size, I did the best I could, which was to thoroughly clean the pitted
area,
including an acetone wash, and then apply epoxy in and over the pits.
That
was followed by reducing all the excess epoxy to the level of the good
metal.

I'm not concerned about the strength of the post, as it's solid 2" SS
rod.
That there are 1/2" keyways cut in the top of it - 2 for 6 inches, and
one
of them continues for over a foot - suggests that it could easily work
at
only 1.75" - Waaay less than the bottom of the worst pit.

The pits didn't fill entirely with epoxy, but it's a lot less cavities
and/or much more shallow than were present before. However, I'm sure
that
some of the same problem would remain - the pits would chew up the
teflon
flax, albeit at a slower rate, and we'd be not much better off. I went
back
and did it again, letting the epoxy thicken a bit before application

What you see with the blue tape and the vaseline was to prevent epoxy
from
sticking to the tube. Unfortunately, I didn't make a dam with it, and a
fair amount dribbled into the tube. Aggressive working of the rudder,
back
and forth, from stop-to-stop (far more than the steering mechanism takes
it,
enabled by the steering being off) scrubbed all the resistance off,
helped
by a few drops of 3-In-One oil as I went, and it now turns freely. So,
the
second time, I did a couple of things differently:

First, of course, I wire brushed it again to scuff up the epoxy which is
in
the pits so far. Then I made sure that the vaseline made a dam around
the entire bottom. And, finally, I didn't put any epoxy on until it was
a
great deal thicker than it was the first time. We're in "warm" weather,
but
far from "hot" - so the slow hardener I have gives me a lot of time to
work
with it - but also a lot of time to wait until it's more viscous.

It actually took three times to get it to where I'm happy with the fill
level. With any luck, that will hold in place. But the nature of the
beast
is that either the tube was too big, or has worn over the years, so the
shaft isn't tight against the sides, even with my centering the rudder.
That
makes for some pressure points (as the lever-action weight of the rudder
moves the shaft against the packing in different areas), which I'm sure
will
eventually make the gland leak more than it should.

However, I've had identical suggestions, separately, by two very
knowledgeable sources, to pack the gland with heavy grease, as well as
the
5/16" teflon flax I've just repacked it with. Both suggested drilling
and
tapping to allow insertion of a zerk. However, as you may be able to
see
from the pictures, that would be difficult at best, would inevitably hit
the
post in order to get deep enough, and likely the only possible point
would
be very near the bottom, suggesting that most of it would come out at
the
hull, rather than going back up the tube. So, instead...

I had to take everything off the top - a major steering assembly,
autopilot
and rudder position indicator arms, and the packing nut - to get to the
area
I was working on effectively, so it will be an easy proposition to get
access for the 1" of vertical height x ~1/4 inch of grease which I can
lay
on without having it start squishing into other spaces before my threads
on
the packing nut engage.

The grease will get forced down the stern tube, and, I'm sure, until I
get
it very tight, up the flax cylinder which makes up the actual bearing.
It's
been suggested that if this area - under the packing gland, in the stern
tube, and into the flax as well - is solid grease, with the very slow
turn
rate of the rudder post, there will be no "tight" or friction issues due
to
lack of water, and not the first drop of water will ever make it out of
the
gland.

So, my first question is:

Have any of you done this, and if so, to what result? Does it, in fact,
inhibit the passage of water due to the pressure of water further
packing
the grease against the shaft, or does it just make an ungodly mess
either
before, during, or after use and during packing replacement on the next
time
around? I have visions of grease slowly working its way through and out
the
top, making it very sloppy under our bed, which is where the rudder post
lives, VERY inaccessibly when the steering is attached, and then,
eventually, letting water through, however that might be...

Related, if this is such a big and easy success, why is it that rudder
tubes
don't arrive with these zerks and instructions on how to use them??? Of
course, mine would be without the zerk, but I can't see that grease
could go
anywhere other than out the top if it were needing replacement (it would
float, let alone be held up by pressure, so not go out the bottom other
than
by overflow when greasing), and, if the packing were AT ALL tight, I
would
expect it wouldn't make it through, the viscosity of the grease being so
much more than water.

Finally, if you've done this, what grease did you use?

A second suggestion, by a merchant mariner who swears his crew did it on
many different occasions on a variety of rotating shafts which were
pitted
is this: Take a very hard plastic tube of the right ID such that it can
be
tightly slipped over the rudder post. Turn it down to a size which will
accommodate passage through the packing gland. Lubricate with a very
light
lube and slip it down onto the pitted area. Reinstall packing and
tighten.

He claims that the sleeve, being relatively softer than the metal, takes
the
beating and the pits fill up with the plastic, while the packing gland
keeps
it all tight but allows the post to turn - and it lasts for years.

My mind can't quite wrap itself around that, in that I can't see how the
hard plastic will do a better job than teflon flax packing at keeping
the
water in - it seems to me the water would be more easily able to come up
through the pits with plastic against it rather than the packing
material.

Further, as the first set of pix currently up in the gallery will show,
the
pits in the area contacted by the packing were, indeed, full of packing
(until I cleaned them out) - so, apparently, filling the pits with
something
else isn't the entire answer.

So, in this case, have any of you ever actually done THIS type of
workaround, and, does it, indeed, work?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or
any
kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now.
Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.

- Etienne Griellet




Making a mountain out of a mole hill, Skippy. My advice is eliminate the
packing gland. Who needs another source for leakage into the hull?? A
packing gland on a rudder post is a sign of Afro-engineering, IMO.

My rudder post has no packing gland. It is eliminated by the simple
expedient of having the top of the GRP post about 12" above the LWL. This
should be easy enough for you to do. Simply remove the dumb packing gland
and slide a suitable length and diameter of GRP tube over the rudder
stock. Fiberglass the tube to where the packing gland used to fit. Gravity
will keep the water from egressing the unsealed top of the GRP tube even
when heeled.

I suppose this all depends upon the length of the rudder stock, however.
Mine is long enough so it protrudes about four inches above the cockpit
sole where there is a bushing that holds the rudder up and keeps it steady
laterally when the tiller/hardware is attached.

I fashioned the bushing myself from white Oak and it's lasted for at least
15 years now without splitting, wearing or rotting. Originally, I had
desired to utilize Lignum Vitae but I couldn't find a source up in St.
Augustine where I did the modification.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Bum Steer - rudder gland question

Hi, all,

My rudder post is badly pitted in the area near the packing gland. The
pits
cut the teflon flax packing and, eventually, no amount of tightening
will
prevent water running through, and, all along, more comes than it
should.


Clarifying terminology:

Rudder stock is what you erroneously call rudder post.

Rudder post is the tube in which the rudder stock lives.

This might help with my suggestion of lengthening the post so as to do
away with the packing gland/hardware.

Wilbur Hubbard

Hi, Wilbur, and group,

Unfortunately, if I were to extend the rudder stock/post/etc., enough to be
above the waterline at all times, we'd have a pole running through our bed.

I fully agree that a gland is a nuisance and a half - but avoidance isn't
feasible without giving up our berth, so it ain't gonna happen.

That said, I've had many responses in a variety of venues, some lists, some
forums. One of them included a schematic for a Sabre rudder which had a
grease fitting included in it, confirming the concept for grease in a
packing gland assembly. However...

The most attractive so far is contained in a response from the Morgan
mailing list with a commercial version of the sleeve concept I asked about:

Skip,
When I had the same problem with the front engine seal (oil not water
o'course) on my 4-107, I bought a "speedy sleeve" and bedded it with engine
RTV. I only did the RTV because if it were not the solution I'd have to take
it off and didn't want to deal with epoxy. The seal was still fine with the
RTV when I sold the boat, 8 years later.

The sleeve increases the diameter so slightly that the oil seal worked fine
and did not have to be stretched.
http://www.vsm.skf.com/en-US/HeavyDu...ediSleeve.aspx
The flange is to have something to place a pipe (over the shaft) against
when you bang the sleeve into position and is scored to break off once the
sleeve is in place.

Miller bearing used to carry them, probably still does:
http://www.millerbearings.com/locations.html

Good luck.

Merlin

I'm doing the research on that at the moment, but it appears they're
stainless steel, with some sort of hardening process on the surface of
them...

L8R

Skip

--

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:56:13 -0500, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Bum Steer - rudder gland question

Hi, all,

My rudder post is badly pitted in the area near the packing gland. The pits
cut the teflon flax packing and, eventually, no amount of tightening will
prevent water running through, and, all along, more comes than it should.

If you're interested, you can see what I mean about the pits by clicking the
gallery link below, and then clicking through the 2011 refit and rudder
project. I've got pictures of everything to this point; see my
dissatisfactions below...

Dropping the rudder isn't a good option, so even if in the unlikely event
(because I've already been doing exploratory searching - if I were SURE a
shop could handle it, I'd drop it) I could find some machine shop which
could attack the problem by grinding, welding, and then cutting back to
size, I did the best I could, which was to thoroughly clean the pitted area,
including an acetone wash, and then apply epoxy in and over the pits. That
was followed by reducing all the excess epoxy to the level of the good
metal.

That is a bad idea, if for no other reason then it is probably
impossible to weld on a shaft without getting some warping. If there
wasn't that big ugly appendage on the end of the shaft then warping
would be a minor problem as you could just put the shaft in a press
and straighten it but more then likely that the rudder is going to get
in the way.

I'm not concerned about the strength of the post, as it's solid 2" SS rod.
That there are 1/2" keyways cut in the top of it - 2 for 6 inches, and one
of them continues for over a foot - suggests that it could easily work at
only 1.75" - Waaay less than the bottom of the worst pit.

The "pitting" appears to be crack corrosion and will undoubtedly get
worse as time goes by.

The pits didn't fill entirely with epoxy, but it's a lot less cavities
and/or much more shallow than were present before. However, I'm sure that
some of the same problem would remain - the pits would chew up the teflon
flax, albeit at a slower rate, and we'd be not much better off. I went back
and did it again, letting the epoxy thicken a bit before application

What you see with the blue tape and the vaseline was to prevent epoxy from
sticking to the tube. Unfortunately, I didn't make a dam with it, and a
fair amount dribbled into the tube. Aggressive working of the rudder, back
and forth, from stop-to-stop (far more than the steering mechanism takes it,
enabled by the steering being off) scrubbed all the resistance off, helped
by a few drops of 3-In-One oil as I went, and it now turns freely. So, the
second time, I did a couple of things differently:

First, of course, I wire brushed it again to scuff up the epoxy which is in
the pits so far. Then I made sure that the vaseline made a dam around
the entire bottom. And, finally, I didn't put any epoxy on until it was a
great deal thicker than it was the first time. We're in "warm" weather, but
far from "hot" - so the slow hardener I have gives me a lot of time to work
with it - but also a lot of time to wait until it's more viscous.

It actually took three times to get it to where I'm happy with the fill
level. With any luck, that will hold in place. But the nature of the beast
is that either the tube was too big, or has worn over the years, so the
shaft isn't tight against the sides, even with my centering the rudder. That
makes for some pressure points (as the lever-action weight of the rudder
moves the shaft against the packing in different areas), which I'm sure will
eventually make the gland leak more than it should.

However, I've had identical suggestions, separately, by two very
knowledgeable sources, to pack the gland with heavy grease, as well as the
5/16" teflon flax I've just repacked it with. Both suggested drilling and
tapping to allow insertion of a zerk. However, as you may be able to see
from the pictures, that would be difficult at best, would inevitably hit the
post in order to get deep enough, and likely the only possible point would
be very near the bottom, suggesting that most of it would come out at the
hull, rather than going back up the tube. So, instead...

I had to take everything off the top - a major steering assembly, autopilot
and rudder position indicator arms, and the packing nut - to get to the area
I was working on effectively, so it will be an easy proposition to get
access for the 1" of vertical height x ~1/4 inch of grease which I can lay
on without having it start squishing into other spaces before my threads on
the packing nut engage.

Sometimes doing something right takes what seems like more effort then
doing it easily, if one discounts the fact that the easy way almost
always involves having to do it over.

The grease will get forced down the stern tube, and, I'm sure, until I get
it very tight, up the flax cylinder which makes up the actual bearing. It's
been suggested that if this area - under the packing gland, in the stern
tube, and into the flax as well - is solid grease, with the very slow turn
rate of the rudder post, there will be no "tight" or friction issues due to
lack of water, and not the first drop of water will ever make it out of the
gland.

So, my first question is:

Have any of you done this, and if so, to what result? Does it, in fact,
inhibit the passage of water due to the pressure of water further packing
the grease against the shaft, or does it just make an ungodly mess either
before, during, or after use and during packing replacement on the next time
around? I have visions of grease slowly working its way through and out the
top, making it very sloppy under our bed, which is where the rudder post
lives, VERY inaccessibly when the steering is attached, and then,
eventually, letting water through, however that might be...

Related, if this is such a big and easy success, why is it that rudder tubes
don't arrive with these zerks and instructions on how to use them??? Of
course, mine would be without the zerk, but I can't see that grease could go
anywhere other than out the top if it were needing replacement (it would
float, let alone be held up by pressure, so not go out the bottom other than
by overflow when greasing), and, if the packing were AT ALL tight, I would
expect it wouldn't make it through, the viscosity of the grease being so
much more than water.

Finally, if you've done this, what grease did you use?

A second suggestion, by a merchant mariner who swears his crew did it on
many different occasions on a variety of rotating shafts which were pitted
is this: Take a very hard plastic tube of the right ID such that it can be
tightly slipped over the rudder post. Turn it down to a size which will
accommodate passage through the packing gland. Lubricate with a very light
lube and slip it down onto the pitted area. Reinstall packing and tighten.

He claims that the sleeve, being relatively softer than the metal, takes the
beating and the pits fill up with the plastic, while the packing gland keeps
it all tight but allows the post to turn - and it lasts for years.

My mind can't quite wrap itself around that, in that I can't see how the
hard plastic will do a better job than teflon flax packing at keeping the
water in - it seems to me the water would be more easily able to come up
through the pits with plastic against it rather than the packing material.

Further, as the first set of pix currently up in the gallery will show, the
pits in the area contacted by the packing were, indeed, full of packing
(until I cleaned them out) - so, apparently, filling the pits with something
else isn't the entire answer.

So, in this case, have any of you ever actually done THIS type of
workaround, and, does it, indeed, work?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip

There are several possible cures.

They used to, and likely still do, make a "dripless" gland packing
that was some sort of soft plastic substance what you packed the
bearing with. It "squished" enough to make the gland waterproof and
seemed to stay in place for years. West Marine used to sell it, and of
course it was available elsewhere. Used in a rudder shaft gland as
apposed to a propeller shaft gland it might be satisfactory.

They make a black impregnated packing that the seal shop that I
patronize tells me will last for years even on a pitted shaft. I used
it on a pitted propeller shaft on a power boat and a trip from
Singapore to Phuket, Thailand didn't show any leakage.

Years ago stuffing boxes with a lubrication system were common. Often
times with a "grease cup", but sometimes with a simple zerk fitting it
allowed injection of grease to lubricate the old time flax packing. If
one injected waterproof grease periodically it would likely reduce or
eliminate leakage.

See drawing of gland: http://royalpurpleindustrial.com/prodsi/cap.html
Better lubrication: http://www.gouldspumps.com/pag_0011.html

Finally: while, of course, the ultimate solution is to replace the
rudder & shaft assembly :-( is it possible to rebuild the packing
gland installation so that the gland falls above the damaged area?
With a hose perhaps, similar to most propeller shaft glands?

I can't see, but is the gland acting as an upper shaft "bearing", if
not, it might be possible to make an extension for the present shaft
that clamps on the top of the shaft to mount the quadrant and various
rudder indicating senders and simply raise the stuffing box.

Of course, the ultimate fact is that whatever you do, other then
sticking more whatever in the gland, which didn't work, any final
solution you decide on will probably cost you money.

Addendum: I just happened to think of one more possible solution. You
might try shrinking a section of "shrink tubing" over the shaft in the
gland area. this is a shrinkable plastic sleeve used to insulate and
waterproof electrical connections. Initially it is large enough to
slip over the joint and then you shrink it by heating with a hot air
gun. Comes in 3 foot lengths, I believe.

If you use it do go to a commercial electrical shop and get the type
with the glue inside - they will know what you are talking about. It
is much more robust then the hobby shope stuff. Be aware though that
the industrial stuff takes either a commercial hot air gun or a gas
torch to shrink. Not the hair drier like the hobby shop stuff.
--
Cheers,

Bruce

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:30:28 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Bum Steer - rudder gland question

Hi, all,

My rudder post is badly pitted in the area near the packing gland. The
pits
cut the teflon flax packing and, eventually, no amount of tightening
will
prevent water running through, and, all along, more comes than it
should.


Clarifying terminology:

Rudder stock is what you erroneously call rudder post.

Rudder post is the tube in which the rudder stock lives.

This might help with my suggestion of lengthening the post so as to do
away with the packing gland/hardware.

Wilbur Hubbard


Interesting, as "rudder stock" and "rudder post" seem equally correct,
or at least equally used, to describe the part that connects the
rudder itself to the means of moving it.

On the other hand "rudder tube" appears to be the usually term applied
to the tube that connects the outside of the boat to the inside, in
which the rudder post/stock turns. See:
http://www.teignbridge.co.uk/rudder_tubes.htmlfor for pictures for
those with reading difficulties.
--
Cheers,

Bruce

Hi, all,

from another, earlier:

I can't quite tell what it looks like above the pitting.

Can you extend the threaded pipe higher where the packing gland goes on
and just make the packing gland higher so you are at a smooth spot ?

It looks like you have the room from the pictures. Have a pipe made
and attach it to the existing pipe with a coupling.

Yes, I might use either both a coupling and a nipple, or a machined-to-fit
single piece to extend the ~3" higher. Either one could have a zerk fitted
before installation, which would help.

However, the higher it gets, the more contortionistic (it's already
interesting) it becomes to renew the gland, later, given the big square
plates in the way (see some of the photos to see what I took off to get to
it)...

and

There are several possible cures.

They used to, and likely still do, make a "dripless" gland packing
that was some sort of soft plastic substance what you packed the
bearing with. It "squished" enough to make the gland waterproof and
seemed to stay in place for years. West Marine used to sell it, and of
course it was available elsewhere. Used in a rudder shaft gland as
apposed to a propeller shaft gland it might be satisfactory.

The clay stuff can be murder, later. Seems like grease is a better
solution. In one of the forums I came across a very detailed look at
packing glands, packing materials, and the like; the clay stuff has some
serious drawbacks...


They make a black impregnated packing that the seal shop that I
patronize tells me will last for years even on a pitted shaft. I used
it on a pitted propeller shaft on a power boat and a trip from
Singapore to Phuket, Thailand didn't show any leakage.

That might be of interest. Do you have a product name? I think I may have
the pits problem solved, one way or another, but not having to do the
packing any more often than absolutely necessary is appealing to me,
regardless of the solution I choose. The packing I've been using is, in
fact, black, and is teflon impregnated. Of course, the shaft rotates (well,
moves back and forth) at a very slow speed, but still has that problem of
the pits wearing it out. In the end, I had a small, constant, stream from
the gland tightened as far as I could make it go with a large pipe wrench
(constricted movement and access, as you might imagine from the pix)...


Years ago stuffing boxes with a lubrication system were common. Often
times with a "grease cup", but sometimes with a simple zerk fitting it
allowed injection of grease to lubricate the old time flax packing. If
one injected waterproof grease periodically it would likely reduce or
eliminate leakage.

I'd hope that I would not have to continously inject something, as the
interesting links below suggest :{))


See drawing of gland: http://royalpurpleindustrial.com/prodsi/cap.html
Better lubrication: http://www.gouldspumps.com/pag_0011.html

That looks like it might do the job. Wonder if I could get just a couple of
ounces??


Finally: while, of course, the ultimate solution is to replace the
rudder & shaft assembly :-( is it possible to rebuild the packing
gland installation so that the gland falls above the damaged area?
With a hose perhaps, similar to most propeller shaft glands?

Yes, that's one of the potentials. Use a packing gland hose to extend, and
a nipple to accept the the nut currently used. Of course, I'd have to turn
a bevel into the nipple to provide the seat for the packing material. Or,
as above, a coupling and a nipple. The hose, if long enough (see
difficulties in access the higher it goes for discouragements), can be
shortened in the event of repeated corrosion (bring the gland down to
unaffected shaft).

The same concept can be used in the form of a dripless, but that would
likely put it even higher. In any event, I'd have to get the rotating part
above any faults for it to be watertight. In this case, that means about 3"
or so.


I can't see, but is the gland acting as an upper shaft "bearing", if
not, it might be possible to make an extension for the present shaft
that clamps on the top of the shaft to mount the quadrant and various
rudder indicating senders and simply raise the stuffing box.

No, it's not. The delrin rings in both portions of the square plates are
the bearings. There's no room above the shaft without entering the berth
space, so extension (never mind the keyway slot and the opposing slot to
allow engagement of an emergency tiller, which, based on the marks and
deformation of the slots, has been done at least once in the past; I had to
peen the defects created in the slot sides in order to get the bearings and
control arm off) wouldn't work, either...


Of course, the ultimate fact is that whatever you do, other then
sticking more whatever in the gland, which didn't work, any final
solution you decide on will probably cost you money.

Heh. Nothing in boat$ doe$sn't cost money. And, I already have been using 4
instead of the typical 2 or 3 rings of packing material...


Addendum: I just happened to think of one more possible solution. You
might try shrinking a section of "shrink tubing" over the shaft in the
gland area. this is a shrinkable plastic sleeve used to insulate and
waterproof electrical connections. Initially it is large enough to
slip over the joint and then you shrink it by heating with a hot air
gun. Comes in 3 foot lengths, I believe.

If you use it do go to a commercial electrical shop and get the type
with the glue inside - they will know what you are talking about. It
is much more robust then the hobby shope stuff. Be aware though that
the industrial stuff takes either a commercial hot air gun or a gas
torch to shrink. Not the hair drier like the hobby shop stuff.

Thanks for the thought. I don't know that such would stand up to the
stress, and, likely, would depress into whatever remains of the pits I've
been working on, creating opportunities for failure of that material.

The good news (relatively, of course) is that even after my most recent
aggressive run at it with a wire wheel, the pits are much better. However,
anything other than fully smooth just delays the issue. If I were to do any
form of sleeve, it likely will be the SS one mentioned in my other response,
courtesy of the Morgan mailing list member who alerted me to it.

Various other suggestions are still coming in, and I haven't heard back from
the SKF folks yet to confirm that it could work in my case.

Still, lots of options, one or more of which are likely to do the trick;
I'll just have to make my choice.

L8R

Skip

--

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:11:25 -0500, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, all,

from another, earlier:

I can't quite tell what it looks like above the pitting.

Can you extend the threaded pipe higher where the packing gland goes on
and just make the packing gland higher so you are at a smooth spot ?

It looks like you have the room from the pictures. Have a pipe made
and attach it to the existing pipe with a coupling.

Yes, I might use either both a coupling and a nipple, or a machined-to-fit
single piece to extend the ~3" higher. Either one could have a zerk fitted
before installation, which would help.

However, the higher it gets, the more contortionistic (it's already
interesting) it becomes to renew the gland, later, given the big square
plates in the way (see some of the photos to see what I took off to get to
it)...

A possible solution - I've deleted your old message with the URL for
the photos - is to modify the boat in some manner as to make it easier
to get to the rudder gland. It may sound radical but my present boat
has drop in boards that make up the bed surface the mattress rests on.
Just haul off the mattress and lift out the boards.

and

There are several possible cures.

They used to, and likely still do, make a "dripless" gland packing
that was some sort of soft plastic substance what you packed the
bearing with. It "squished" enough to make the gland waterproof and
seemed to stay in place for years. West Marine used to sell it, and of
course it was available elsewhere. Used in a rudder shaft gland as
apposed to a propeller shaft gland it might be satisfactory.

The clay stuff can be murder, later. Seems like grease is a better
solution. In one of the forums I came across a very detailed look at
packing glands, packing materials, and the like; the clay stuff has some
serious drawbacks...

I have read that, on the other hand I've met people that swear by it.
But regardless, the rudder doesn't move as much as he propeller shaft
it might work on a rudder shaft while being less satisfactory on a
prop shaft..


They make a black impregnated packing that the seal shop that I
patronize tells me will last for years even on a pitted shaft. I used
it on a pitted propeller shaft on a power boat and a trip from
Singapore to Phuket, Thailand didn't show any leakage.

That might be of interest. Do you have a product name? I think I may have
the pits problem solved, one way or another, but not having to do the
packing any more often than absolutely necessary is appealing to me,
regardless of the solution I choose. The packing I've been using is, in
fact, black, and is teflon impregnated. Of course, the shaft rotates (well,
moves back and forth) at a very slow speed, but still has that problem of
the pits wearing it out. In the end, I had a small, constant, stream from
the gland tightened as far as I could make it go with a large pipe wrench
(constricted movement and access, as you might imagine from the pix)...

No. I probably never knew. It is a Singapore shop that I visit every
year or so and I had just bought a small motor cruiser. I mentioned in
passing that I had a problem shaft and he pulled out this "black"
stuff and recommended it. As I usually buy several meters of various
sizes of packing when I'm in the shop I don't think it is a matter of
"sell the guy something" and he probably did have a customer that
recommended it.


Years ago stuffing boxes with a lubrication system were common. Often
times with a "grease cup", but sometimes with a simple zerk fitting it
allowed injection of grease to lubricate the old time flax packing. If
one injected waterproof grease periodically it would likely reduce or
eliminate leakage.

I'd hope that I would not have to continously inject something, as the
interesting links below suggest :{))

The last boat I had with a grease lubricated stuffing box had a grease
cup attached to it. I used to give the cup a turn every few months, as
I remember. Never had any leaks nor any grease squirting out.

But really, if you go that route you just screw a hose into the gland
and run it wherever you want. Bleed it before you start to pump
grease. With a hose you ~could~ be sitting in the cockpit greasing
your rudder :-)


See drawing of gland: http://royalpurpleindustrial.com/prodsi/cap.html
Better lubrication: http://www.gouldspumps.com/pag_0011.html

That looks like it might do the job. Wonder if I could get just a couple of
ounces??

I would guess you might have to settle for a pound or so.

Finally: while, of course, the ultimate solution is to replace the
rudder & shaft assembly :-( is it possible to rebuild the packing
gland installation so that the gland falls above the damaged area?
With a hose perhaps, similar to most propeller shaft glands?

Yes, that's one of the potentials. Use a packing gland hose to extend, and
a nipple to accept the the nut currently used. Of course, I'd have to turn
a bevel into the nipple to provide the seat for the packing material. Or,
as above, a coupling and a nipple. The hose, if long enough (see
difficulties in access the higher it goes for discouragements), can be
shortened in the event of repeated corrosion (bring the gland down to
unaffected shaft).

I wouldn't do that. After figuring out how to attach the hose to
whatever you have now, I'd buy a proper gland to put in the other end.
I told you that doing it the cheap way is not always the lowest cost
way :-)

The same concept can be used in the form of a dripless, but that would
likely put it even higher. In any event, I'd have to get the rotating part
above any faults for it to be watertight. In this case, that means about 3"
or so.


I can't see, but is the gland acting as an upper shaft "bearing", if
not, it might be possible to make an extension for the present shaft
that clamps on the top of the shaft to mount the quadrant and various
rudder indicating senders and simply raise the stuffing box.

I was only commenting on the bearing. On my last sailboat the rudder
had no bottom bearing and the shaft was supported only by the rudder
tube and stuffing gland..

No, it's not. The delrin rings in both portions of the square plates are
the bearings. There's no room above the shaft without entering the berth
space, so extension (never mind the keyway slot and the opposing slot to
allow engagement of an emergency tiller, which, based on the marks and
deformation of the slots, has been done at least once in the past; I had to
peen the defects created in the slot sides in order to get the bearings and
control arm off) wouldn't work, either...

How much space above the berth? You might raise it. The sailboat I
mentioned above had only a little headroom over someone sitting in the
berth. To be frank we never really noticed the head room in over ten
years of living on the boat.


Of course, the ultimate fact is that whatever you do, other then
sticking more whatever in the gland, which didn't work, any final
solution you decide on will probably cost you money.

Heh. Nothing in boat$ doe$sn't cost money. And, I already have been using 4
instead of the typical 2 or 3 rings of packing material...

There isn't really any typical numbers of rings. the correct number is
enough to fill the box :-)

Addendum: I just happened to think of one more possible solution. You
might try shrinking a section of "shrink tubing" over the shaft in the
gland area. this is a shrinkable plastic sleeve used to insulate and
waterproof electrical connections. Initially it is large enough to
slip over the joint and then you shrink it by heating with a hot air
gun. Comes in 3 foot lengths, I believe.

If you use it do go to a commercial electrical shop and get the type
with the glue inside - they will know what you are talking about. It
is much more robust then the hobby shope stuff. Be aware though that
the industrial stuff takes either a commercial hot air gun or a gas
torch to shrink. Not the hair drier like the hobby shop stuff.

Thanks for the thought. I don't know that such would stand up to the
stress, and, likely, would depress into whatever remains of the pits I've
been working on, creating opportunities for failure of that material.

What stress? You have said that the stuffing box did not act as an
upper bearing so any stress would come from the packing rubbing on the
plastic. Teflon impregnated packing rubbing on a PTFE covered shaft?
(PTFE, sold as Teflon by DuPont Co)

The good news (relatively, of course) is that even after my most recent
aggressive run at it with a wire wheel, the pits are much better. However,
anything other than fully smooth just delays the issue. If I were to do any
form of sleeve, it likely will be the SS one mentioned in my other response,
courtesy of the Morgan mailing list member who alerted me to it.

One comment here. If you install the stainless sleeve can you get the
rudder off? Is there is room in the rudder tube for it to slide out?

Various other suggestions are still coming in, and I haven't heard back from
the SKF folks yet to confirm that it could work in my case.

Still, lots of options, one or more of which are likely to do the trick;
I'll just have to make my choice.

L8R

Skip
--
Cheers,

Bruce

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 03:29:07 -0500, WaIIy wrote:

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:52:49 +0700, Bruce
wrote:

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:30:28 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Bum Steer - rudder gland question

Hi, all,

My rudder post is badly pitted in the area near the packing gland. The
pits
cut the teflon flax packing and, eventually, no amount of tightening
will
prevent water running through, and, all along, more comes than it
should.


Clarifying terminology:

Rudder stock is what you erroneously call rudder post.

Certainly. After all, it is a shaft :-).

Rudder post is the tube in which the rudder stock lives.

This might help with my suggestion of lengthening the post so as to do
away with the packing gland/hardware.

Wilbur Hubbard


Interesting, as "rudder stock" and "rudder post" seem equally correct,
or at least equally used, to describe the part that connects the
rudder itself to the means of moving it.

You could also call it "Rudder Shaft".

"Rudder Log" or "Rudder Shaft Log" might be appropriate for the tube.

On the other hand "rudder tube" appears to be the usually term applied
to the tube that connects the outside of the boat to the inside, in
which the rudder post/stock turns. See:
http://www.teignbridge.co.uk/rudder_tubes.htmlfor for pictures for
those with reading difficulties.
--
Cheers,

Bruce

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:56:13 -0500, "Flying Pig"
wrote in part:

Bum Steer - rudder gland question

Hi, all,

My rudder post is badly pitted in the area near the packing gland. The pits
cut the teflon flax packing and, eventually, no amount of tightening will
prevent water running through, and, all along, more comes than it should.

IMHO

I looked at the pics. Seems your shaft is beyond pitted!

Here's something that really works. It's used on tractors, big trucks
and boats. Should last longer than us and "Flying Pig" on a rudder
post.

http://www.vsm.skf.com/en-US/HeavyDu...ediSleeve.aspx

Do a Google search on it as well.

Having the shaft welded, turned down and a lot of times straightened
(it warps from the heat) is kind of 50-50 compared to the cost of a
new shaft.

Re grease and a zerk on the stuffing box. This used to be standard in
the old days and works well. It's no longer legal as it violates the
oil discharge reg. However, I did use that method for a while until I
could replace an egg-shaped, wallowed out stuffing box. It's legal if
you use animal lard or something like Crisco. Be sure you have your
dedicated animal/vegatable grease-gun handy in case you're checked.
And to top off - it won't last as long.

Rick