This article details what I consider to be extremely shady billing
practices of IMIS (International Marine Insurance Services) with whom
I and many others boaters have insurance. I'm currently sailing in
Honduras.

While I was home in the Boston area in early May I realized that my
marine insurance policy would expire while I was out of the country. I
also realized that the credit card information that they had on file
needed to be updated. A couple of days before leaving I called my
agent, Al Golden at IMIS, to find out what the renewal amount was
going to be so that I could either set up a payment via my on-line
bill payer or provide an updated credit card number. While I was
unable to speak with Al, I spoke with his assistant and explained my
situation. The next day the assistant provided me with details on the
renewal pricing. I provided updated credit card information and
assumed that I would be billed when the policy renewed. I also
provided my e-mail address so that they could contact me on the boat.

I was quite surprised when I visited an Internet cafe and viewed my
on-line credit card statement. IMIS billed my credit card for the
policy amount, $5014, on May 5th but the policy doesn't renew until
July 4th! I e-mailed IMIS asking what happened. Their reply was that
they assumed that I wanted it billed immediately and that if I wanted
a refund that I should return the they documents mailed to my house
along with a letter requesting that the policy be canceled! First off,
I didn't want the insurance canceled, second I was in Honduras with no
access to my mail in Boston and third I would never have authorized
them to bill me 2 months in advance! Providing a credit card number is
not authorization to bill at will. Another silly thing that they did
was to tell me that I could have received a cash discount had I paid
by check, which I could easily have done with my on-line bill payer.

I reiterated the above points in subsequent e-mail and stated that
they could keep the $5014 for 2 months, but in attempt to find some
middle ground where I didn't feel like I was being taken advantage of,
I wanted the amount of the cash discount refunded to me. Their reply
was that they felt like I was taking advantage of them with absolutely
no offer of how to reconcile the solution! Hey, they have my money 2
months in advance and I'm taking advantage of them?!?!? If that's
their definition of being taken advantage of, where do I sign up?

Now at this point I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard
place. I'm afraid that if I dispute the charges with my credit card
company that they'll cancel my policy, which is something that I
definately don't want to have happen. IMIS doesn't seem to be willing
to come to any middle ground, so my approach is going to be to let the
world know about their practices. I just don't know why my dealings
with insurance companies regularly leave me with a bad taste in my
mouth. And if I have problems with IMIS regarding billing, what kind
of problems will I have with them regarding claims? If you have
insurance with IMIS, or are considering getting insurance with them,
be VERY careful with how you handle your payments.

-- Geoff Schultz

P.S. I've attached our e-mail correspondence so that you can see that
I'm not making this up.

******** Mail to Al Golden on 5/27/2004 *************

I just noticed that my credit card was billed for $5014 for my
insurance policy. While I expected this, the policy renews on July
4th, and I was billed 2 months in advance. Why did this occur?

-- Geoff Schultz in Honduras

******** Mail from Al Golden on 5/28/2004 *************

Geoff:

Sorry for any misunderstanding!

As far as I can tell from our phone log, there was never any mention
by you of a specific time to enter the charge, so it was entered as
soon as you gave us the authority to do so.

In the future you can either send a check, which would be much cheaper
anyway, or give us instructions on when you want the transaction
entered.

Fair winds,

Al Golden International Marine Insurance Services

********* Mail to Al Golden on 5/28/2004 ******************
Al,

Per the phone conversation with the woman who took my call to you, I
was supposed to be billed when the policy renewed. Not 2 months in
advance! The only reason that I called was because my credit card
number changed.

I could have easily set up an automated payment if that was going to
save me money. No one ever discussed that option with me.

At this point I want my premium refunded and then we can discuss
payment by check.

-- Geoff Schultz

********* Mail from Gary Golden on 6/1/2004 ****************
Geoff,

We apologize again for the misunderstanding.

However, please recall that you called us in May to report that you
were leaving to return to the boat the next day and that we should
charge your credit card. This gave us very little opportunity to
contact you to clarify that payment by credit card results in the loss
of a cash discount or to clarify when you wanted the charge processed.
However, we surmised from the fact that you called the day before you
were leaving that you wanted us to process the charge right away so
that we could inform you of any problems in plenty of time.

And it is our standard procedure to process credit card charges
promptly upon their authorization unless we receive explicit
instructions to do otherwise. I hope that you can understand that we
would get in a lot more trouble for forgetting to process a charge or
processing a charge too late than we would in circumstances like yours
where we have processed a charge too early.

If you are insistent on us processing a refund for you, please return
the insurance policy declarations renewal that was mailed to your
Cameron Drive address on May 10 along with a formal written request
that the policy be cancelled. In order to receive a 100% refund these
documents must be received on or before July 10.

However, we hope that you will decide to allow us to continue to serve
your insurance needs.

Sincerely,

~GARY GOLDEN International Marine Insurance Services

************ Message to Gary Golden on 6/2/2004
************************
Gary,

I feel like you're doing quite the job of twisting the facts to match
your actions. First off, I would never have authorized your to bill my
credit card 2 months in advance for a $5000 charge. Cash is king and
you've moved $5000 to your pockets for 2 months before you have to pay
it out. That's ridiculous. Next, you have my e-mail address aboard the
boat and if there were any problems processing the charge you could
easily have contacted me. On top of this I was never informed about a
cash discount. I could have scheduled a payment via my on-line bill
payer to arrive at/before the due date.

Now I'm in Honduras and you want me to return the documents to you and
request that I cancel my insurance while I'm cruising! Clearly that
isn't possible or reasonable. I simply want insurance and am willing
to pay for it when it's due.

At this point I've been bill $5000 two months in advance and I've lost
the cash discount. Seems like I've lost on both accounts. I'd be
willing to let you keep the $5000 if you refund the amount of the cash
discount to me. I do NOT want to cancel my insurance. I just want to
end up with a situation where I, the customer, don't feel like I'm
being taken advantage of.

-- Geoff Schultz

*********** Message from Gary Golden on 6/3/2004 ********************
Geoff,

As I have said previously, we are sorry for the miscommunication.
However, your latest message would have been received more favorably
had you omitted the first and last sentences.

In your first sentence you 'compliment' me on twisting the facts. I
have stated to you honestly the facts as I know and/or understand them
and was disappointed to have been accused of doing otherwise. In your
second sentence you indicate that you feel as if you were taken
advantage of, but we have that same feeling. You called us and left us
a message that clearly intimated that you would be out of touch
starting the next day and yet you expected us to take care of
everything for you. We did the best we could to comply with what we
thought was your desire, but you didn't give us much to work with.

We do not give cash discounts because we prefer cash and checks, we do
so because it is less costly for us to to accept those forms of
payment. Had we not already irrevocably incurred the costs associated
with your credit card charge we would gladly allow you the cash
discount.

Regretfully,

~GARY, International Marine Insurance Service

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:42:30 GMT, wrote:

On 10 Jun 2004 15:27:51 -0700, (Geoff Schultz) wrote:

This article details what I consider to be extremely shady billing
practices of IMIS (International Marine Insurance Services) with whom
I and many others boaters have insurance. I'm currently sailing in
Honduras.


It all sounds perfectly fine to me. They did their best to placate a customer
with selective memory who assumed that everyone knows what he is thinking
without him saying anything..

BB

I have to disagree with BB on this one. I have several "things" where I
expect my credit card to be billed according to a billing cycle...
every month, quarterly, twice a year, or on a annual basis. I'd be pretty upset too
if I were billed two or more months before the "old" money ran out in the case of
the longer term accounts.
It's due when it's due, and not before.
I expect to pay it when it's due...but again, not before.
Norm B

They did their best to placate a customer
with selective memory who assumed that everyone knows what he is thinking
without him saying anything..

BB

sorry, bb, it is against federal law to bill a credit card for services not yet
rendered/or product shipped unless the customer specifically agrees to it. It
is fraud.

Gee Geoff. It seems that trouble seems to follow you around.
Perhaps IMIS followed your rediculous rant against Fischer-
Panda and figured they better get their money while they
could. Is your solution to everything to air out your dirty
laundry online hoping to find someone to support your
position? If you can't come to terms with IMIS then cancel your
policy. There are plenty of other companies out there that
will gladly insure you. That is unless your litigious nature
is so well known now that folks would rather stear clear.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
om...
This article details what I consider to be extremely shady billing
practices of IMIS (International Marine Insurance Services) with whom
I and many others boaters have insurance. I'm currently sailing in
Honduras.

While I was home in the Boston area in early May I realized that my
marine insurance policy would expire while I was out of the country. I
also realized that the credit card information that they had on file
needed to be updated. A couple of days before leaving I called my
agent, Al Golden at IMIS, to find out what the renewal amount was
going to be so that I could either set up a payment via my on-line
bill payer or provide an updated credit card number. While I was
unable to speak with Al, I spoke with his assistant and explained my
situation. The next day the assistant provided me with details on the
renewal pricing. I provided updated credit card information and
assumed that I would be billed when the policy renewed. I also
provided my e-mail address so that they could contact me on the boat.

I was quite surprised when I visited an Internet cafe and viewed my
on-line credit card statement. IMIS billed my credit card for the
policy amount, $5014, on May 5th but the policy doesn't renew until
July 4th! I e-mailed IMIS asking what happened. Their reply was that
they assumed that I wanted it billed immediately and that if I wanted
a refund that I should return the they documents mailed to my house
along with a letter requesting that the policy be canceled! First off,
I didn't want the insurance canceled, second I was in Honduras with no
access to my mail in Boston and third I would never have authorized
them to bill me 2 months in advance! Providing a credit card number is
not authorization to bill at will. Another silly thing that they did
was to tell me that I could have received a cash discount had I paid
by check, which I could easily have done with my on-line bill payer.

I reiterated the above points in subsequent e-mail and stated that
they could keep the $5014 for 2 months, but in attempt to find some
middle ground where I didn't feel like I was being taken advantage of,
I wanted the amount of the cash discount refunded to me. Their reply
was that they felt like I was taking advantage of them with absolutely
no offer of how to reconcile the solution! Hey, they have my money 2
months in advance and I'm taking advantage of them?!?!? If that's
their definition of being taken advantage of, where do I sign up?

Now at this point I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard
place. I'm afraid that if I dispute the charges with my credit card
company that they'll cancel my policy, which is something that I
definately don't want to have happen. IMIS doesn't seem to be willing
to come to any middle ground, so my approach is going to be to let the
world know about their practices. I just don't know why my dealings
with insurance companies regularly leave me with a bad taste in my
mouth. And if I have problems with IMIS regarding billing, what kind
of problems will I have with them regarding claims? If you have
insurance with IMIS, or are considering getting insurance with them,
be VERY careful with how you handle your payments.

-- Geoff Schultz

P.S. I've attached our e-mail correspondence so that you can see that
I'm not making this up.

******** Mail to Al Golden on 5/27/2004 *************

I just noticed that my credit card was billed for $5014 for my
insurance policy. While I expected this, the policy renews on July
4th, and I was billed 2 months in advance. Why did this occur?

-- Geoff Schultz in Honduras

******** Mail from Al Golden on 5/28/2004 *************

Geoff:

Sorry for any misunderstanding!

As far as I can tell from our phone log, there was never any mention
by you of a specific time to enter the charge, so it was entered as
soon as you gave us the authority to do so.

In the future you can either send a check, which would be much cheaper
anyway, or give us instructions on when you want the transaction
entered.

Fair winds,

Al Golden International Marine Insurance Services

********* Mail to Al Golden on 5/28/2004 ******************
Al,

Per the phone conversation with the woman who took my call to you, I
was supposed to be billed when the policy renewed. Not 2 months in
advance! The only reason that I called was because my credit card
number changed.

I could have easily set up an automated payment if that was going to
save me money. No one ever discussed that option with me.

At this point I want my premium refunded and then we can discuss
payment by check.

-- Geoff Schultz

********* Mail from Gary Golden on 6/1/2004 ****************
Geoff,

We apologize again for the misunderstanding.

However, please recall that you called us in May to report that you
were leaving to return to the boat the next day and that we should
charge your credit card. This gave us very little opportunity to
contact you to clarify that payment by credit card results in the loss
of a cash discount or to clarify when you wanted the charge processed.
However, we surmised from the fact that you called the day before you
were leaving that you wanted us to process the charge right away so
that we could inform you of any problems in plenty of time.

And it is our standard procedure to process credit card charges
promptly upon their authorization unless we receive explicit
instructions to do otherwise. I hope that you can understand that we
would get in a lot more trouble for forgetting to process a charge or
processing a charge too late than we would in circumstances like yours
where we have processed a charge too early.

If you are insistent on us processing a refund for you, please return
the insurance policy declarations renewal that was mailed to your
Cameron Drive address on May 10 along with a formal written request
that the policy be cancelled. In order to receive a 100% refund these
documents must be received on or before July 10.

However, we hope that you will decide to allow us to continue to serve
your insurance needs.

Sincerely,

~GARY GOLDEN International Marine Insurance Services

************ Message to Gary Golden on 6/2/2004
************************
Gary,

I feel like you're doing quite the job of twisting the facts to match
your actions. First off, I would never have authorized your to bill my
credit card 2 months in advance for a $5000 charge. Cash is king and
you've moved $5000 to your pockets for 2 months before you have to pay
it out. That's ridiculous. Next, you have my e-mail address aboard the
boat and if there were any problems processing the charge you could
easily have contacted me. On top of this I was never informed about a
cash discount. I could have scheduled a payment via my on-line bill
payer to arrive at/before the due date.

Now I'm in Honduras and you want me to return the documents to you and
request that I cancel my insurance while I'm cruising! Clearly that
isn't possible or reasonable. I simply want insurance and am willing
to pay for it when it's due.

At this point I've been bill $5000 two months in advance and I've lost
the cash discount. Seems like I've lost on both accounts. I'd be
willing to let you keep the $5000 if you refund the amount of the cash
discount to me. I do NOT want to cancel my insurance. I just want to
end up with a situation where I, the customer, don't feel like I'm
being taken advantage of.

-- Geoff Schultz

*********** Message from Gary Golden on 6/3/2004 ********************
Geoff,

As I have said previously, we are sorry for the miscommunication.
However, your latest message would have been received more favorably
had you omitted the first and last sentences.

In your first sentence you 'compliment' me on twisting the facts. I
have stated to you honestly the facts as I know and/or understand them
and was disappointed to have been accused of doing otherwise. In your
second sentence you indicate that you feel as if you were taken
advantage of, but we have that same feeling. You called us and left us
a message that clearly intimated that you would be out of touch
starting the next day and yet you expected us to take care of
everything for you. We did the best we could to comply with what we
thought was your desire, but you didn't give us much to work with.

We do not give cash discounts because we prefer cash and checks, we do
so because it is less costly for us to to accept those forms of
payment. Had we not already irrevocably incurred the costs associated
with your credit card charge we would gladly allow you the cash
discount.

Regretfully,

~GARY, International Marine Insurance Service

he *requested* to be charged for services he did not need for 60 days? why do
you say that, for his post seemed decidedly otherise.

On 11 Jun 2004 00:14:10 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

They did their best to placate a customer
with selective memory who assumed that everyone knows what he is thinking
without him saying anything..

BB

sorry, bb, it is against federal law to bill a credit card for services not
yet
rendered/or product shipped unless the customer specifically agrees to it.
It
is fraud.

He requested it.

BB

bb, you ain't listening. try again.


On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:08:18 -0700, engsol wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:42:30 GMT, wrote:

On 10 Jun 2004 15:27:51 -0700, (Geoff Schultz)
wrote:

This article details what I consider to be extremely shady billing
practices of IMIS (International Marine Insurance Services) with whom
I and many others boaters have insurance. I'm currently sailing in
Honduras.


It all sounds perfectly fine to me. They did their best to placate a
customer
with selective memory who assumed that everyone knows what he is thinking
without him saying anything..

BB

I have to disagree with BB on this one. I have several "things" where I
expect my credit card to be billed according to a billing cycle...
every month, quarterly, twice a year, or on a annual basis. I'd be pretty
upset too
if I were billed two or more months before the "old" money ran out in the
case of
the longer term accounts.
It's due when it's due, and not before.
I expect to pay it when it's due...but again, not before.
Norm B

He called and asked them to charge him. He didn't call and ask them to use
the
information he was giving them "now" to charge him at some time in the
future.
It sounds as if they have been straightforward in responding to his error.
They
are not mindreaders.

BB

dougeies, it is against federal law to charge a credit card before services are
rendered/product is shipped. What word don't you understand?

An insurance policy is cosidered "shipped" when it is written. NOT when
it goes into effect. Check your automobile policy. You will start
getting billed about 2 months before expiration.

If you want to get technical, the actual "product" is not completely
rendered until the end of the term. Fat chance an insurance company
will settle for that.

JAXAshby wrote:

dougeies, it is against federal law to charge a credit card before services are
rendered/product is shipped. What word don't you understand?



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Oh! THAT'S why the name rings a bell. I couldn't figure out why anyone
would be complaining about Al Golden. He moved heaven and earth to get
a builder's risk policy on RUTU when nobody else would even talk to
me. Geoff needs to chill a little and think ahead. IMS did exactly
what they understood he wanted. Besides, who pays an insurance bill by
credit card anyway? With internet banking you can pay your bills when
you want to from Timbuktu.

Doug Dotson wrote:

Gee Geoff. It seems that trouble seems to follow you around.
Perhaps IMIS followed your rediculous rant against Fischer-
Panda and figured they better get their money while they
could. Is your solution to everything to air out your dirty
laundry online hoping to find someone to support your
position? If you can't come to terms with IMIS then cancel your
policy. There are plenty of other companies out there that
will gladly insure you. That is unless your litigious nature
is so well known now that folks would rather stear clear.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
dougeies, it is against federal law to charge a credit card before
services are
rendered/product is shipped. What word don't you understand?

Are you sure about that? I have had a web-shop, using PayPal. The moment
someone ordered a product, Paypal immediately charged his/her creditcard and
an e-mail was sent to me to inform me of the payment made so I could ship
the goods. This is standard practise. Now don't tell me the entire Paypal
system would be against federal law.

Meindert