Hi

"Backyard Renegade" skrev i en meddelelse
om...
"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message news:_BUgb.18539.

Anyway,
like I said, I see a lot of quick CAD Plan hawkers on the net, and
lot's of homemade boats on the water not in compliance with flotation,
generally accepted construction standards, improper documentation and
a host of other things. I have even seen this while getting my own
boats inspected, I keep my mouth shut there though. I know it would be
almost impossible to regulate the builders, but waiting for something
terrible to happen so "natural selection" (extreme litigation) put the
idiots out of business does not seem the way to go either. Joe Schmo
can not build a train and or an auto and put it on the road or the
track, why should a boat be any different?
Just thinking out loud, Scotty from, well, you know.

A lot of the cheap plans you se is no good anyway ; when you expect just a bit
of advise and realise that the design is 70 years old you maby understand that
even you saved a few $ , you will "pay" by the fact that you get an outdated
design and no way to find relevant advise. ----------- Bad idear from my point
of view, beside also 70 years ago there was also "desktop-designers" ; people
who produced boat plans without having a clue about what boat design is about
and what I find more serious than the lack of basic skills from the designers
side, is the fact that an amature builder have no way to know or reconise a set
of "toy-plans" from real boat plans.
-------- Anyone with just a bit experience will know just what to look for , but
an amature builder will rather think that the simpler the design , the easier
it's build where you with just a bit experience will know that surely that can
be true, if you want a bad boat.

With boat plans the builder often will need the advise of the designer, and as
you can not fight copying of outdated designs, your only option is, to offer a
service that is worth paying beside a repurtation that will make the designs of
yours into somthing special , for the one who chose to build one of your
designs. The web is a very difficult marked ,and for decades the boat plan
marked been flooded by old fasion designs , -------then I took the choice to
offer somthing more or rather somthing different , other designers chosen their
way to promote their designs, my way been to focus on the options with CAD.
Beside I took the stand, that amature boatbuilding, alway's been the platform
for an exiting hobby. ---------- now please know that I do talk with a bit of
experience, I am a boatbuilder and even lectured CAD at the boatbuilding school
here in Dk. But my experience is, that if you think you can make a decent offer
, by selling your own designs, you soon are up against 70 year old designs made
on a desktop, and it seem no one want modern designs and safe boats, if you can
find plans that offer you to save a few $. ------- Ontop as you know, I tried
to build ontop the tradisional lofting and section plans , and still today I
guess Cyber-Boat is the only concept, offering true lapstrake 3D models, as the
basic for the unfolded planks , where anything else I seen concerning CAD, been
smoothened surfaces , and that will not unfold the true panels.

When I closed down the Cyber-Boat site as a buisness, it never had given any
true profit but a lot of trouble being among the first few, just like you, who
tried making the web into a new marked, --------- I failed but as full-scale
plans at that time wasn't even accepted in this group ; I had a crowd against me
telling everyone , that full-scale plans didn't work , even I proven lots of
designs acturly building them, -------- but realy I got out of it, with the
experience , that people rather have a clumpsy Galant-Elefant with all flat
bottom, rather than a wonderfull new design where the designer translated the
rigid CAD tools, into somthing to acturly profit amature boatbuilding. But this
is the way things work and I guess a lot of Bolger boxes is what show american
children the true beauty of tradisional boatbuilding , I spended a lot of time
and a lot of efford , but as you know , either they sit bored behind their desk
getting their fee anyway , so nothing is easier than taking the bread from
somones mouth.
And esp. when paper is so cheap and printing is so cheap and you don't need to
pay a designer, ----- I dropped out even I bet my home made unfolding software
and other in house software is still today better than what you could find,
beside the software I develobed was produced in a real building process and
design process. But this is how the web decided ; 70 year old designs and old
fasion , pre.computer age building methods , is still what you have to fight,
even you think boatbuilding shuld not be a craft to be seen in a museum , there
isn't even any respect for the craft when it is up against an Elegant Elefant
and a crowd of usenet trolls, laughing the back out their pans , for every piece
of bread they can steal from your mouth , ------- fact is fact and boxes are
boats.
Beside if your father or grand father way back in the 50' produced a squarebox
boathull from some old popular mechanics, you are in your right to destroy any
attemt from any designer trying to make his living on decent designs. Those are
acturly as bad, as as soon as you discussed with somone who acturly want a nice
modern design, you can be sure somone will tell the world what a boat is , and
that is some 70 year old design .
P.C.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

I was kinda hoping to hear from Designers and Builders, not some silly
software designer who never built a boat!

Just to start things right, there is nothing Honeycomb about your
designs, there are only standard bulkheads and stringers. You have
cleverly (stupidly) turned them at a 45 degree angle to the logical
placement, making for much more time and material intensive building
process leaving lot's of mis-shaped areas in the boat that need to be
covered and are only good for pouring in foam.

The current Stitch and Tape builders are designing and building much
more modern boats than you, and with logical, useable shapes, so stop
saying we build ugly boxes. Have you seen my boats, CLC, etc. We have
taken the old designs and changed them drastically to fit today's
environment and boating needs. For instance, take my "Joe". Looks
enough like the old D4 or Sabot, but look closer there is a lot of
difference. The aforementioned boats were developed long ago, for sail
and oars. I have redesigned mine completely to take advantage of small
engines which are much more popular now than back then. There are
those that are building Driftboats, Whitehalls, Wherry's and other
beautiful, round boats of S+T, you are just blind to them because of
your personal narrow-mindedness.

You say we are the closed minded ones but in reality, almost every one
of us (your detractors) have tried to give you the benefit of the
doubt in the past. Each until you started tearing us down for asking
questions, most of which, to this day, remain unanswered. Everyone who
watches this group knows well how much you hate Bolger boats and my
type of operation... But in 30 seconds, last year, in the middle of
the night, while sleeping, Bolger designs sparked more boat builders
into their first boat then you have in your entire lifetime!

Per, you are a bitter man who shot his wad and failed miserably,
understandably so. You took some pretty logical construction methods
(stringers and bulkheads) and turned them to a 45 degree angle to a
definite fore and aft structure. Personally, I look at your scam as
Intellectually lazy, and as I noted before, impractical from any real
boat building point of view. Then when we tried to make suggestions,
in a constructive manner, you attack us as a group, call us stupid,
lazy, unsafe, etc. Your plans from what I have seen, don't even
address the simple fact of flotation, and you consider yourself a
responsible designer? Anyone can draw lines on a computer, even put in
a fancy "right angle" (nothing honeycomb about it) texture, but do you
know what the joint is going to look like that supports the helm, what
material, what adhesive or fastener. How the hell is someone supposed
to build a boat from a cartoon?

My suggestion is that you go back to software development. Although
your designs from my point of view are just silly and useless, they do
look pretty cool. Maybe you should try to sell your software to
artists, TV commercial producers, or even childerns toy makers.

Scotty, from SmallBoats.com

Hi

"Backyard Renegade" skrev i en meddelelse
om...
I was kinda hoping to hear from Designers and Builders, not some silly
software designer who never built a boat!

Just to start things right, there is nothing Honeycomb about your
designs, there are only standard bulkheads and stringers. You have
cleverly (stupidly) turned them at a 45 degree angle to the logical
placement, making for much more time and material intensive building
process leaving lot's of mis-shaped areas in the boat that need to be
covered and are only good for pouring in foam.


Exactly, and if you ever build a tradisional wooden boat , you know that what
take time is not the hull but the deck , the edges the troubled small corners ,
floor foundations all those small but time comsuming things that is simply not
there, when there are an outher hull and an inner hull with the room inbetween
that will hold the flotation.

The current Stitch and Tape builders are designing and building much
more modern boats than you, and with logical, useable shapes, so stop
saying we build ugly boxes. Have you seen my boats, CLC, etc. We have
taken the old designs and changed them drastically to fit today's
environment and boating needs.

That attitude is your choice, I would prefere to make new and exiting designs,
and at the same time develob new methods, more exiting designs , easier build
and in any sheet material.

For instance, take my "Joe". Looks
enough like the old D4 or Sabot, but look closer there is a lot of
difference. The aforementioned boats were developed long ago, for sail
and oars. I have redesigned mine completely to take advantage of small
engines which are much more popular now than back then. There are
those that are building Driftboats, Whitehalls, Wherry's and other
beautiful, round boats of S+T, you are just blind to them because of
your personal narrow-mindedness.


So SandG is more than one thing ,becaurse different designs is produced, -----
it can't be it is just one method , and you call me narrow minded )

You say we are the closed minded ones but in reality, almost every one
of us (your detractors) have tried to give you the benefit of the
doubt in the past. Each until you started tearing us down for asking
questions, most of which, to this day, remain unanswered.

Wrong again, you just need to check the old Cyber-Boat sites that ansvered a lot
of questions, -------- but not those that you can smell is nothing but fish.

Everyone who
watches this group knows well how much you hate Bolger boats and my
type of operation...

No not quite, I do not like the Bolger attitude, but your buisness is none of
my buisness.

But in 30 seconds, last year, in the middle of
the night, while sleeping, Bolger designs sparked more boat builders
into their first boat then you have in your entire lifetime!


"Sparked" ? ------- all I seen of Bolgers designs is flat bottomed and drawn to
fit the need of Popular Mechanics back 50' . or somthing that rather look like
a copy of what all boatbuilders made in the 20' , ------- Now I don't blame
flat bottomed boats as a lot of lake or river boats work perfect with flat
bottom , but why don't they make atlantic racers in Bolger style, why don't they
produce lifeboats Bolger style why don't they use plywood instead of steel or
epoxy.

Per, you are a bitter man who shot his wad and failed miserably,
understandably so. You took some pretty logical construction methods
(stringers and bulkheads) and turned them to a 45 degree angle to a
definite fore and aft structure.

Well Im'e sorry that F.A.A. describe the method as an attractive building method
for small aeroplanes, but please ansver what you think give the strength with a
stringer if it's not the structure it acturly form. Have you ever wondered how
these tiny ribs and thin stringers and planking can form such strong
structures, --------- maby you think the strength come from the stringer or tiny
ribs that is so easily broken , but not easily broken when glued together.

Personally, I look at your scam as
Intellectually lazy, and as I noted before, impractical from any real
boat building point of view.

And you say so without even a scale model, while F.A.A. call it an attractive
building method.

Then when we tried to make suggestions,
in a constructive manner, you attack us as a group, call us stupid,
lazy, unsafe, etc.

No that was the Elegant Elefant, I wouldn't like to drown in one of those
nomatter how many lawn cruisers that made..

Your plans from what I have seen, don't even
address the simple fact of flotation, and you consider yourself a
responsible designer?

What !!! ------- Dizzie a 5 meter true lapstrake take 3 grown up at one side of
the boat and you can hardly notis, maby you shuld look into the design of that
if you want to make your D4 more stable , -------- the smallest pram I build
loads of would hold 450 Kg with 2.08 meter length , and the 3.8 meter Dizzie not
published but build will manuver in a crowded harbour with almost no wind
, ---------- the only true sailing pram that acturly work with sails.

Anyone can draw lines on a computer,

No they can't , ------ you wouldn't even be able to figur out to place the
defination lines producing the most accurate and detailed boat shape that my
software offer, --- Software that make you morph 3D between two different
designs , not just morf 2D as you do with graphic , ------- do you even know the
difference ?

even put in
a fancy "right angle" (nothing honeycomb about it) texture, but do you
know what the joint is going to look like that supports the helm, what
material, what adhesive or fastener. How the hell is someone supposed
to build a boat from a cartoon?


What are you talking about , --------- I put 12 different boats on display each
and every one acturly build , then I develob a new building method that even F.
A.A.

My suggestion is that you go back to software development. Although
your designs from my point of view are just silly and useless, they do
look pretty cool. Maybe you should try to sell your software to
artists, TV commercial producers, or even childerns toy makers.


And my suggestion is that you try emagine your D4 and how much easier it will be
to build, leaving a honeycomb core cut in ply , easy to produce with full-scale
plans and a jigsaw . You se when there is a reliable building jig and perfect
unfolded panels , amature boatbuilding is that much easier than troubled edges
and no backing or nails in endwood. My advise is that you open your mind and
realise that even Bolger did his best to make boatbuilding into somthing that
deal with only plywood and materials and building methods avaible in the 50' ,
the 3D-H method will perform any small boat safer, stronger and easier build
, --------- but you guy's want to stay with old fasion stitch and glue in a way
where you fight the materials and only se the epoxy as the chains to hold rigid
Ply. S and G acturly can be much more than fighting the materials , but I don't
wonder all the trouble with these old fasion plans , made for a different
material in another time. For my sake you are welcom to stay with that, also
for my sake you are welcom to stay with Bolger , the childish claims I heard
about 3D-Honeycomb all showed the lack of knowleage of the ones trying to make
the group into what they realy love. Their lack of experience simply shine thru
the wish to throw dirt and say the one hit stink . And most often these
"profesionals" , just showed their lack of skills and experience , --------
throwing dirt ; realy there are people who fill their life with that.
Then there is other people who suggest anyone with a real interest in
boatbuilding, to build in a method that bring a boat at a third the cost, four
times stronger and much easier build , You made your choice I made mine.

P.C.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

You are impossible dude, and so I must abandon this part of the thread.
Scotty