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#11
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Yacht Design School
Couple of minor points .. - I think Berkeley has an NA program now, probably NA & ME as you mentioned ....been awhile since I looked - The E.I.T. (Engineer In Training) is now called the F.E. (Fundamentals of Engineering). As you mention, best taken about a month after you graduate (or less), e.g. long enough to do tons of cram sessions immediately prior to the (day long PITA) test. Glad I got it done long ago (1987). May I (we) ask why you are no longer in the industry? If I calculate right, you're either independently wealthy from the loads of cash you made in the boat world and retired early, or you've moved on to another type of career? Hmmm? I'm betting you're rich now ... Brian -- My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass "Dave Skolnick" wrote in message newsYEfb.8825$N94.1308@lakeread02... Brian D wrote: snip If you want to play the safest bet, then go to school and get a degree in mechanical engineering followed by a highly respected yacht design school -or- get a degree in naval architecture (U. of Mich. etc). Follow this by taking the FE, putting in some time, joining SNAME and taking their PE preparation training, then getting your naval architecture PE. snip As far as I know, the only places in the U.S. to get an undergraduate degree in naval architecture are Webb Institute (in NY), U Michigan, U of New Orleans, and the U.S. Naval Academy. MIT, U Mich, and Webb have graduate programs. I think all the undergraduate programs are actually naval architecture AND marine engineering. The various state merchant marine academys generally offer a degree in marine engineering that concentrates on machinery and systems with little or no exposure to stability, arrangements, hydrodynamics, or structures. When I was at Webb there was no academic coverage of recreational boats, although a far amount of interest among the students (and a very active racing program). The theory is of course all the same, but the examples and practical experience are on commercial and military ships. A 120' offshore tug was the smallest ship I remember. There were some small boat thesis topics senior year. Some of the students also found work in small boat design offices during summer breaks or winter work terms. At least one worked for free in order to get the experience. If a young(ish) person really wanted to get into small boat design, I'd go for the academic degree and work in a boatyard or on the commissioning crew of a new boat dealer during the first summer, and find employment in small boat design firms during the remaining summers as well as the winter if the break is long enough. Try to get in with Sparkman & Stephens for one of those work terms. Take the EIT Fundamentals of Engineering exam immediately on graduation; it is really hard to crank back up for it later. Start collecting material for a library early: look for design and installation guidance for engines and other systems, follow the publications and activities of the SNAME Small Craft Committee (one of my roommates chairs the sailing craft sub-committee), join the Royal Institution of Naval Architects and follow their small craft group (they recently started publishing journal of small craft technology), and follow boatdesign.net. dave B.S. Naval Architecture & Marine Engineering '82 no longer in the industry -- ----- news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to "respond" at the same domain. |
#12
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Yacht Design School
Brian D wrote:
May I (we) ask why you are no longer in the industry? If I calculate right, you're either independently wealthy from the loads of cash you made in the boat world and retired early, or you've moved on to another type of career? Hmmm? I'm betting you're rich now ... Ha! I looked around and realized that shipbuilding was not a growth industry. In the late 80's, even the Reagan defense build-up didn't result in much hope for design work: the Navy was building more each class, not more classes. The only companies consolidating faster than shipyards were design firms. Commercial design and shipbuilding was moving offshore. Lockheed Shipyard was bidding on municipal water and sewer projects to keep the doors open. So I managed a career shift over to defense and security, did some time at a federal agency, and returned to private industry. At least I'm working. Work keeps me in house, food, and boat-bucks, but I'm certainly not rich. dave -- ----- news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to "respond" at the same domain. |
#13
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Yacht Design School
Per, read the whole post before responding.
I agree with you. -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com "P.C." wrote in message k... Hi "Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse .. . Snip I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and efficient boats were designed by people without a PE. But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do just a bit math. P.C. |
#14
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Yacht Design School/Amateurs?
"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message ...
Per, read the whole post before responding. I agree with you. -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com Just curious… And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war. What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their "cannon" correctly? Scotty from SmallBoats.com "P.C." wrote in message k... Hi "Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse .. . Snip I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and efficient boats were designed by people without a PE. But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do just a bit math. P.C. |
#16
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Yacht Design School/Amateurs?
Steve:
If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather than anything regarding newsgroups. In reply to Scotty (assuming I read his question correctly), I guess you need to put this in context. SNAME (The Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers) and other professional societies cater to professionals. Educating the hobbyist is just not part of their mandate. We pay a sizable annual membership fee (something like $150/year) for the services that they provide. So it is not surprising that you'll find very little from them. Let me offer some thoughts based on my requirements as an instructor of an Intro to Naval Architecture class I teach that the Univ of New Hampshire. I have a semester to introduce the subject to mechanical engineering seniors (it is a technical elective class). I use "Naval Architecture for Non-Naval Architects" as a text (published by SNAME), along with information gleaned from other naval architects and writers (much of which you can find in trade magazines such as Professional Boatbuilder). (In particular, look for Dudley Dawson's article "Once Around the Design Spiral", from Professional Boatbuilder Oct/Nov 1997.) For students who want to try developing lines, I point them first to Greg Carlson's small freeware chine hull program. Its not without its limitations and holes, but it is a pretty nice little tool - with almost no learning curve. And they can punch out DXF files of shell plates and bulkheads to build small models. By the time they are done, they will have completed a small design project and write a tech paper on a naval architecture subject of their choice. Certainly not a 4-year program in naval architecture, but enough to get their feet wet. Regards, Don Donald M. MacPherson VP Technical Director HydroComp, Inc. http://www.hydrocompinc.com "steveb" wrote in message ... (Backyard Renegade) lifted the trapdoor, peered around and wrote: Just curious. And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war. What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their "cannon" correctly? Scotty from SmallBoats.com I am new here too ... but here is some of what I know of Usenet: No one can *exclude* you! This forum is not moderated, you are entirely free to post what you want. Whether or not you get useful replies, depends on the prescence of like-minded posters. All newsgroups attract the "opinionated" ... and this is not necessarily a bad thing After all, opinion is often just what is being sought, and you really would benefit from the following: Take what you need, and leave the rest. If you can also contribute, that helps. I have no idea who SNAME are, but as the old saying *sort of* goes: If they wanted me, I probably wouldn't want to join ... lmao Don't ever lose your sense of humour on Usenet, that way lies the asylum steveb --- Nervous breakdowns are hereditory. We get them from our children --- |
#17
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Yacht Design School/Amateurs?
"D MacPherson" lifted the
trapdoor, peered around and wrote: If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather than anything regarding newsgroups. You may be right, but I read that he was asking if he would be discouraged from posting "here" ie. in this ng, otherwise the reference to "flames" doesn't make much sense. Oh well, I'm sure he will say steveb |
#18
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Yacht Design School/Amateurs?
steveb (another one?) says:
You may be right, but I read that he was asking if he would be discouraged from posting "here" ie. in this ng, otherwise the reference to "flames" doesn't make much sense. Oh well, I'm sure he will say Actually, I think what Scotty is referring ot is the SNAME-backed desire for all designers (even us small-boat guys) to have a PE tacked to the many initials after our neames. My feeling is that if you have the education to be accepted into SNAME, then you should be qualified to design a boat, or engineer aboat (sys he quickly to avoid ****ing off the Marine Engineering crowd). If not , then SNAME has seriously lowered the gate in terms of membership qualifications. In the rest of the world, if you are qualified to join the professional body of you chosen field as a full member, then you are qualified to do the work, otherwise they would not let you in. Has anyone seen a member of the American Medical Assoc. who is not a doctor? Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm |
#19
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Yacht Design School/Amateurs?
steveb wrote in message . ..
"D MacPherson" lifted the trapdoor, peered around and wrote: If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather than anything regarding newsgroups. You may be right, but I read that he was asking if he would be discouraged from posting "here" ie. in this ng, otherwise the reference to "flames" doesn't make much sense. Oh well, I'm sure he will say steveb What I am really getting to I think is what as Marine Architects, and Marine Engineers, PE's etc. do you think of someone like myself building, designing, and even selling plans for a few small boats? Keeping in mind that I do abide by USCG regs and test my boats, full size, on the water, before I expose the public to them. If I am reading correctly, SNAME members should not deal with the likes of me at all. I am not trying to make this thread about just SNAME, I was actually hoping to hear from Jaques' and other schooled folks in the business. Scotty |
#20
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Yacht Design School/Amateurs?
Now now ...let's all just be friends. For those that don't know, SNAME is the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers. The PE is the new Naval Architecture Professional Engineer license (requires engineering degree, followed by passing the FE (Fundamentals of Engineering) exam, followed by 4+ years of experience (unless they changed the rules recently), then finally the passing of the PE exam). Note that this is a STATE GOVERNMENT issue, not a Federal issue. That means different states will write different rules about what the PE is required for, if anything at all. Most states do NOT require it. States that DO require it don't enforce it for small craft, which is (I believe) defined to 200' and less. Again, those rules will vary by the state, so take this as general knowledge only. For all those people doing small craft design, like even Scotty (I disagree on his self-ordained 'amateur' rating), the bottom line in the above text is that it DOES NOT APPLY to you. If you are pursuing a career in which you may DESIGN one or more aspects of ships 200' and up, then it applies in the states that decided to make it apply. The 200' rule is different by state. Can't remember which, but one of them went as short as 60', another 120'. Getting your PE is just a bit of CYA so you can continue your work unheeded should the rules change. This is more important if you are contracting your work to others, since you probably can't get liability insurance without it if the state you operate out of requires the license. MOST OFTEN, when you work for someone else or some other company, no PE is required. Companies often have NOBODY with a PE, but are self-insuring or can obtain insurance anyway (more difficult if you are working alone.) Now, on to Scotty's question ...what does SNAME think of people like him? Can't speak for the bylaws, but SNAME has tons and tons of publications that apply to small craft. Maybe not quite as small as Scotty's typical boat, but the theory applies anyway. Sounds open minded to me, except that SNAME has entrance requirements for joining. One of the reasons for joining is so that you can contribute. I expect that is the primary reason that they have entrance requirements, like most professional organizations. I'm pretty sure they'll sell the documents to anybody but they cost more if you are not a member. Being a member requires a couple of recommendation letters and at least being enrolled in a yacht design or naval architecture school, or having graduated from one. ...oh, and money of course. The money gets you periodicals and discount rates on literature ..just like most professional organizations. BTW, comments about SNAME also apply to the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) I believe. Between these two organizations, you have so much good information to read that it's unlikely that you'll ever cover it all, in this lifetime anyway. Join if you can, buy docs you want/need otherwise. Brian "Backyard Renegade" wrote in message m... steveb wrote in message . .. "D MacPherson" lifted the trapdoor, peered around and wrote: If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather than anything regarding newsgroups. You may be right, but I read that he was asking if he would be discouraged from posting "here" ie. in this ng, otherwise the reference to "flames" doesn't make much sense. Oh well, I'm sure he will say steveb What I am really getting to I think is what as Marine Architects, and Marine Engineers, PE's etc. do you think of someone like myself building, designing, and even selling plans for a few small boats? Keeping in mind that I do abide by USCG regs and test my boats, full size, on the water, before I expose the public to them. If I am reading correctly, SNAME members should not deal with the likes of me at all. I am not trying to make this thread about just SNAME, I was actually hoping to hear from Jaques' and other schooled folks in the business. Scotty |
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