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  #11   Report Post  
Brian D
 
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Default Yacht Design School


Couple of minor points ..

- I think Berkeley has an NA program now, probably NA & ME as you mentioned
....been awhile since I looked
- The E.I.T. (Engineer In Training) is now called the F.E. (Fundamentals of
Engineering). As you mention, best taken about a month after you graduate
(or less), e.g. long enough to do tons of cram sessions immediately prior to
the (day long PITA) test. Glad I got it done long ago (1987).

May I (we) ask why you are no longer in the industry? If I calculate right,
you're either independently wealthy from the loads of cash you made in the
boat world and retired early, or you've moved on to another type of career?
Hmmm? I'm betting you're rich now ...

Brian

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"Dave Skolnick" wrote in message
newsYEfb.8825$N94.1308@lakeread02...
Brian D wrote:
snip
If you want to play the safest bet, then go to school and get a degree

in
mechanical engineering followed by a highly respected yacht design
school -or- get a degree in naval architecture (U. of Mich. etc).

Follow
this by taking the FE, putting in some time, joining SNAME and taking

their
PE preparation training, then getting your naval architecture PE.

snip

As far as I know, the only places in the U.S. to get an undergraduate
degree in naval architecture are Webb Institute (in NY), U Michigan, U
of New Orleans, and the U.S. Naval Academy. MIT, U Mich, and Webb have
graduate programs. I think all the undergraduate programs are actually
naval architecture AND marine engineering. The various state merchant
marine academys generally offer a degree in marine engineering that
concentrates on machinery and systems with little or no exposure to
stability, arrangements, hydrodynamics, or structures.

When I was at Webb there was no academic coverage of recreational boats,
although a far amount of interest among the students (and a very active
racing program). The theory is of course all the same, but the examples
and practical experience are on commercial and military ships. A 120'
offshore tug was the smallest ship I remember. There were some small
boat thesis topics senior year.

Some of the students also found work in small boat design offices during
summer breaks or winter work terms. At least one worked for free in
order to get the experience.

If a young(ish) person really wanted to get into small boat design, I'd
go for the academic degree and work in a boatyard or on the
commissioning crew of a new boat dealer during the first summer, and
find employment in small boat design firms during the remaining summers
as well as the winter if the break is long enough. Try to get in with
Sparkman & Stephens for one of those work terms. Take the EIT
Fundamentals of Engineering exam immediately on graduation; it is really
hard to crank back up for it later. Start collecting material for a
library early: look for design and installation guidance for engines and
other systems, follow the publications and activities of the SNAME Small
Craft Committee (one of my roommates chairs the sailing craft
sub-committee), join the Royal Institution of Naval Architects and
follow their small craft group (they recently started publishing journal
of small craft technology), and follow boatdesign.net.

dave
B.S. Naval Architecture & Marine Engineering '82
no longer in the industry

--
-----
news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to
"respond" at the same domain.



  #12   Report Post  
Dave Skolnick
 
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Default Yacht Design School

Brian D wrote:
May I (we) ask why you are no longer in the industry? If I calculate right,
you're either independently wealthy from the loads of cash you made in the
boat world and retired early, or you've moved on to another type of career?
Hmmm? I'm betting you're rich now ...


Ha! I looked around and realized that shipbuilding was not a growth
industry. In the late 80's, even the Reagan defense build-up didn't
result in much hope for design work: the Navy was building more each
class, not more classes. The only companies consolidating faster than
shipyards were design firms. Commercial design and shipbuilding was
moving offshore. Lockheed Shipyard was bidding on municipal water and
sewer projects to keep the doors open.

So I managed a career shift over to defense and security, did some time
at a federal agency, and returned to private industry. At least I'm working.

Work keeps me in house, food, and boat-bucks, but I'm certainly not rich.

dave

--
-----
news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to
"respond" at the same domain.

  #13   Report Post  
Jacques Mertens
 
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Default Yacht Design School

Per, read the whole post before responding.
I agree with you.


--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

"P.C." wrote in message
k...
Hi

"Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse
.. .

Snip
I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and
efficient boats were designed by people without a PE.


But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do

just a
bit math.

P.C.





  #14   Report Post  
Backyard Renegade
 
Posts: n/a
Default Yacht Design School/Amateurs?

"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message ...
Per, read the whole post before responding.
I agree with you.


--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com


Just curious… And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war.
What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very
amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the
mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their
"cannon" correctly?
Scotty from SmallBoats.com


"P.C." wrote in message
k...
Hi

"Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse
.. .

Snip
I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and
efficient boats were designed by people without a PE.


But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do

just a
bit math.

P.C.



  #16   Report Post  
D MacPherson
 
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Default Yacht Design School/Amateurs?

Steve:

If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general
omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather
than anything regarding newsgroups.

In reply to Scotty (assuming I read his question correctly), I guess you
need to put this in context. SNAME (The Society of Naval Architects and
Marine Engineers) and other professional societies cater to professionals.
Educating the hobbyist is just not part of their mandate. We pay a sizable
annual membership fee (something like $150/year) for the services that they
provide. So it is not surprising that you'll find very little from them.

Let me offer some thoughts based on my requirements as an instructor of an
Intro to Naval Architecture class I teach that the Univ of New Hampshire. I
have a semester to introduce the subject to mechanical engineering seniors
(it is a technical elective class). I use "Naval Architecture for Non-Naval
Architects" as a text (published by SNAME), along with information gleaned
from other naval architects and writers (much of which you can find in trade
magazines such as Professional Boatbuilder). (In particular, look for Dudley
Dawson's article "Once Around the Design Spiral", from Professional
Boatbuilder Oct/Nov 1997.) For students who want to try developing lines, I
point them first to Greg Carlson's small freeware chine hull program. Its
not without its limitations and holes, but it is a pretty nice little tool -
with almost no learning curve. And they can punch out DXF files of shell
plates and bulkheads to build small models. By the time they are done, they
will have completed a small design project and write a tech paper on a naval
architecture subject of their choice. Certainly not a 4-year program in
naval architecture, but enough to get their feet wet.

Regards,

Don

Donald M. MacPherson
VP Technical Director
HydroComp, Inc.
http://www.hydrocompinc.com




"steveb" wrote in message
...
(Backyard Renegade) lifted the trapdoor, peered
around and wrote:

Just curious. And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war.
What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very
amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the
mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their
"cannon" correctly?
Scotty from SmallBoats.com


I am new here too ... but here is some of what I know of Usenet:

No one can *exclude* you! This forum is not moderated, you are entirely
free to post what you want. Whether or not you get useful replies, depends
on the prescence of like-minded posters.

All newsgroups attract the "opinionated" ... and this is not necessarily a
bad thing After all, opinion is often just what is being sought, and

you
really would benefit from the following: Take what you need, and leave the
rest. If you can also contribute, that helps.

I have no idea who SNAME are, but as the old saying *sort of* goes:

If they wanted me, I probably wouldn't want to join ... lmao

Don't ever lose your sense of humour on Usenet, that way lies the asylum



steveb
---
Nervous breakdowns are hereditory.
We get them from our children
---




  #17   Report Post  
steveb
 
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Default Yacht Design School/Amateurs?

"D MacPherson" lifted the
trapdoor, peered around and wrote:

If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general
omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather
than anything regarding newsgroups.


You may be right, but I read that he was asking if he would be discouraged
from posting "here" ie. in this ng, otherwise the reference to "flames"
doesn't make much sense. Oh well, I'm sure he will say

steveb
  #18   Report Post  
Stephen Baker
 
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Default Yacht Design School/Amateurs?

steveb (another one?) says:

You may be right, but I read that he was asking if he would be discouraged
from posting "here" ie. in this ng, otherwise the reference to "flames"
doesn't make much sense. Oh well, I'm sure he will say


Actually, I think what Scotty is referring ot is the SNAME-backed desire for
all designers (even us small-boat guys) to have a PE tacked to the many
initials after our neames. My feeling is that if you have the education to be
accepted into SNAME, then you should be qualified to design a boat, or engineer
aboat (sys he quickly to avoid ****ing off the Marine Engineering crowd).
If not , then SNAME has seriously lowered the gate in terms of membership
qualifications. In the rest of the world, if you are qualified to join the
professional body of you chosen field as a full member, then you are qualified
to do the work, otherwise they would not let you in. Has anyone seen a member
of the American Medical Assoc. who is not a doctor?

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm
  #19   Report Post  
Backyard Renegade
 
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Default Yacht Design School/Amateurs?

steveb wrote in message . ..
"D MacPherson" lifted the
trapdoor, peered around and wrote:

If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the general
omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design, rather
than anything regarding newsgroups.


You may be right, but I read that he was asking if he would be discouraged
from posting "here" ie. in this ng, otherwise the reference to "flames"
doesn't make much sense. Oh well, I'm sure he will say

steveb


What I am really getting to I think is what as Marine Architects, and
Marine Engineers, PE's etc. do you think of someone like myself
building, designing, and even selling plans for a few small boats?
Keeping in mind that I do abide by USCG regs and test my boats, full
size, on the water, before I expose the public to them. If I am
reading correctly, SNAME members should not deal with the likes of me
at all. I am not trying to make this thread about just SNAME, I was
actually hoping to hear from Jaques' and other schooled folks in the
business.
Scotty
  #20   Report Post  
Brian D
 
Posts: n/a
Default Yacht Design School/Amateurs?


Now now ...let's all just be friends.

For those that don't know, SNAME is the Society of Naval Architects and
Marine Engineers. The PE is the new Naval Architecture Professional
Engineer license (requires engineering degree, followed by passing the FE
(Fundamentals of Engineering) exam, followed by 4+ years of experience
(unless they changed the rules recently), then finally the passing of the PE
exam). Note that this is a STATE GOVERNMENT issue, not a Federal issue.
That means different states will write different rules about what the PE is
required for, if anything at all. Most states do NOT require it. States
that DO require it don't enforce it for small craft, which is (I believe)
defined to 200' and less. Again, those rules will vary by the state, so
take this as general knowledge only.

For all those people doing small craft design, like even Scotty (I disagree
on his self-ordained 'amateur' rating), the bottom line in the above text is
that it DOES NOT APPLY to you. If you are pursuing a career in which you
may DESIGN one or more aspects of ships 200' and up, then it applies in the
states that decided to make it apply. The 200' rule is different by state.
Can't remember which, but one of them went as short as 60', another 120'.

Getting your PE is just a bit of CYA so you can continue your work unheeded
should the rules change. This is more important if you are contracting your
work to others, since you probably can't get liability insurance without it
if the state you operate out of requires the license. MOST OFTEN, when you
work for someone else or some other company, no PE is required. Companies
often have NOBODY with a PE, but are self-insuring or can obtain insurance
anyway (more difficult if you are working alone.)

Now, on to Scotty's question ...what does SNAME think of people like him?
Can't speak for the bylaws, but SNAME has tons and tons of publications that
apply to small craft. Maybe not quite as small as Scotty's typical boat,
but the theory applies anyway. Sounds open minded to me, except that SNAME
has entrance requirements for joining. One of the reasons for joining is so
that you can contribute. I expect that is the primary reason that they have
entrance requirements, like most professional organizations. I'm pretty
sure they'll sell the documents to anybody but they cost more if you are not
a member. Being a member requires a couple of recommendation letters and
at least being enrolled in a yacht design or naval architecture school, or
having graduated from one. ...oh, and money of course. The money gets you
periodicals and discount rates on literature ..just like most professional
organizations.

BTW, comments about SNAME also apply to the American Boat and Yacht Council
(ABYC) I believe. Between these two organizations, you have so much good
information to read that it's unlikely that you'll ever cover it all, in
this lifetime anyway. Join if you can, buy docs you want/need otherwise.

Brian


"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
m...
steveb wrote in message

. ..
"D MacPherson" lifted the
trapdoor, peered around and wrote:

If I read Scotty's post correctly, I think he is referring to the

general
omission of "hobbyist" level sources for training in yacht design,

rather
than anything regarding newsgroups.


You may be right, but I read that he was asking if he would be

discouraged
from posting "here" ie. in this ng, otherwise the reference to "flames"
doesn't make much sense. Oh well, I'm sure he will say

steveb


What I am really getting to I think is what as Marine Architects, and
Marine Engineers, PE's etc. do you think of someone like myself
building, designing, and even selling plans for a few small boats?
Keeping in mind that I do abide by USCG regs and test my boats, full
size, on the water, before I expose the public to them. If I am
reading correctly, SNAME members should not deal with the likes of me
at all. I am not trying to make this thread about just SNAME, I was
actually hoping to hear from Jaques' and other schooled folks in the
business.
Scotty



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