Scotty & Jacques,
I've been following this thread for some time. At this juncture I think you
have hit a nodal point.

While I very much agree that while some regulation is good, a LOT is not
necessarily better; how do you 'regulate' the 'buyer'?

Lets leave the 'diminished capacity by self-applied substances' factors out,
and focus on the basic stupidity of actions we've probably all seen;
- a 'typical' small Aluminum 'jon boat' {12 to 15 feet}, built by a well
known manufacturer, with all the attendant safety and 'anti-litigation'
items included in it's design, construction, and labeling. It is out on a
large, active river {the Delaware, in this case}. Maybe a 10hp o/b and the
following 'cargo' . . . 4 adults plus 4 children plus various hampers &
coolers . . . NOT a single PFD in evidence . . . freeboard about 6 inches.

- a small 'runabout' {15 to 17 feet} with o/b, the same active river
[Tugs/Towboats {with & without barges}, freighters, tankers, & large wake
throwing powerboats], with NO anchor, radio, 'cell phone', reserve fuel.
Adrift, trying to 'flag down' a small sailboat to 'call their friends'
because they are in trouble.

I have no idea what happened to these people . . . hopefully they all
survived. The individual with the "$100,000.oo high-speed powerboat" that
was running at night, wide open with his young child driving, when he ran
DIRECTLY into an ILLUMINATED channel marker post, did not. What IS certain,
is that the design & materials of the boats they were in had NOTHING to do
with THEIR circumstances.

'Natural Selection' is the concept of the 'Annual Darwin Awards' that get
published on the 'net and some newspapers. Some 'candidates' are simply more
eligible than others.

Regards,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{PS: In 'another life' I worked in engineering and was contemplating
applying for my PE cert. Another engineer, who had one, advised AGAINST it.
When I asked him, his answer was simple & straight forward . . . "because
THAT's who they go after when ever anything hits the fan !!"
"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message
. ..
It's not natural selection against creativity but the opposite: I want
that
creativity to be out there, free from regulations and count on natural
mechanisms to balance things.

SNIP

"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message ...
It's not natural selection against creativity but the opposite: I want that
creativity to be out there, free from regulations and count on natural
mechanisms to balance things.

Amateur boat builders should not be protected against their will, they
should be free to decide what level of safety they want. For example, all
our designs can be have the positive and upright bouyancy as specified in
the ABYC/USCG standards but the builder is free to decide if he wants it or
not.
I don't care about that in my boats, I prefer preventative safety.
It is true that such freedom goes with responsibility. The builder should be
responsible for understanding his choices and that may require some
education. Good amateur builders will learn enough about design and building
to make an educated choice. The others may choose to go with governement
standards but leave us the choice.
I lived through that in France 25 years ago: plans for amateurs had to be
homologated by a government agency. It delayed the publication of new plans
by almost one year and doubled or tripled the cost of developing a new
design. In one of our designs, we used polar coordinates instead of
cartesian. This is much more accurate for round bilge hulls and allowed the
builder to skip lofting. A little desktop dictator forced us to remove those
coordinates from the plans and revert to the old table of offsets. We lost
time and money, the builders lost the benefit of our mathematical lofting.
Check the price of boat plans for amateurs in France: 4 or 5 times higher.

That is exactly what I am afraid of, that kind of regulation and for
the same reasons as you. For now we will keep "inventing" and
tinkering. There is a lot of new material and technique out there to
still be developed and like you say, a lot of it will come from those
who are new as they have not yet been stuck into a certain mold. I
guess what got me going is a recent article in a very popular boating
mag that put me in a list with Mickelak (sp?), Payson, Jaques' Glen-L
and a few others. I was of course pretty excited, but at the same time
I don't know that I belonged in that category. Thanks to all that have
answered here, and sorry about going off on Per.

Scotty, just happy to be building boats...

Herreshoff and Atkins designed great boats without the ABYC standards,
without STYX stability calculations, without a PE license.

Designers and amateur builders are in the same boat :-)
Excessive regulations can destroy our freedom to build our own boats. We'll
be all stuck with cookie cutter plastic buckets . . . and their high cost.

--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com


"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Yes, that is what I was getting to. Natural selection, versus
creativity. Hopefully this will pan out so we don't end up like
builders in the UK where an operation like mine is almost impossible.

There is no such thing as "some regulation". Government will always use
some regulation to justify more. Those that think there is a need for
this better take a long hard look at what has happened in the US in our
lifetimes.

Ron

This is true. Anyone ever see many laws repealed, or sales taxes reduced???

The real goal is safety. If more weight, among consumers and designers,
were given to voluntary compliance with things like the ABYC standards
(which already exist of course), then I would think there'd be less pressure
by the gov't to push through mandatory regulations for small craft.

People should make obvious statements on their plans (and in advertising and
on web sites etc) that say something like "Compliant with v.XXXX of the ABYC
Standards & Technical Guidelines for Small Craft" or some such thing.
Hopefully consumers/customers would start to see that showing up and would
develop a preference for boats that meet the guidelines. Designers are the
only ones who can start things in this direction ...don't know if this would
keep the dogs off our backs or not but it can't hurt.

Brian


"Ron Thornton" wrote in message
...
There is no such thing as "some regulation". Government will always use
some regulation to justify more. Those that think there is a need for
this better take a long hard look at what has happened in the US in our
lifetimes.

Ron

Passing a test just means you pass the test. In particular it does not
mean you can design a good, or even a safe, boat. There are a large number
of graduates of all sorts of certification programs who do not have the
judgement and experince of people who did not take the test. Goodness I've
seen too many people with BA after their names who can't perform or
produce, or even cope. I have belonged to professional associations and
have been certifed and I know it may not mean much. What it says is at
some point in time you knew some specialized knowledge. Some of the actual
aims of certification associations I know of were basically
self-promotion, lobbying, networking, and marketing. I discontinued
membership in one after a short time.

I was arguing recently online with kayak paddlers who claimed you needed
formal instruction from a certified paddling instructor. They were quite
defensive about it.

I think the best protection for any consumer is is free and open
discussion like we have on the Usenet, which is why I like newsgroups and
avoid forums. I don't think people need to agree. Spirited discussion is
good. Even married couples don't *always* agree. Ever since Consumer's
Report started its annual automobie reliability survey better built Asian
cars and trucks have been taking market share away from other
manufacturers. Openess is good.

Often people who design and build boats for money are restricted in what
they can do. If you've put in the time and money to become certified you
serve the market. It the amateur who can try new things. I know
amateur dingy racers have introduced new things which eventually found
their way into the designs of larger boats carrying the names of certified
marine (naval?) architects. When I was racing dingys in a small way with a
local club one of the things I liked best about big race meets was walking
around looking at the neat things people added to their boats.

Long live the amateur desinger and boatbuilder.
--
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"Brian D" wrote in message
news:jZXhb.734183$Ho3.178853@sccrnsc03...
People should make obvious statements on their plans (and in advertising
and
on web sites etc) that say something like "Compliant with v.XXXX of the
ABYC
Standards & Technical Guidelines for Small Craft" or some such thing.

Good suggestion. We may print that on our plans with some warnings etc.
Note that we sell 30% of our plans to export and do not plan to stuyd all
the regulations of all countries but the ABYC standards make sense.
--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message ...
"Brian D" wrote in message
news:jZXhb.734183$Ho3.178853@sccrnsc03...
People should make obvious statements on their plans (and in advertising
and
on web sites etc) that say something like "Compliant with v.XXXX of the
ABYC
Standards & Technical Guidelines for Small Craft" or some such thing.

Good suggestion. We may print that on our plans with some warnings etc.
Note that we sell 30% of our plans to export and do not plan to stuyd all
the regulations of all countries but the ABYC standards make sense.

I have been putting warnings and the regs I follow on my plans for years
Scotty from SmallBoats.com

I have a standard statement on house plans that we use that basically says
"We tried, but if it doesn't meet your local requirements, then it's your
fault." A disclaimer. Written more nicely than that of course I can
dig it up and post it here if anyone is interested...

Brian

"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message
...

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:jZXhb.734183$Ho3.178853@sccrnsc03...
People should make obvious statements on their plans (and in advertising
and
on web sites etc) that say something like "Compliant with v.XXXX of the
ABYC
Standards & Technical Guidelines for Small Craft" or some such thing.

Good suggestion. We may print that on our plans with some warnings etc.
Note that we sell 30% of our plans to export and do not plan to stuyd all
the regulations of all countries but the ABYC standards make sense.
--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com