The following is my opinion of a good company. My affiliation is as a DIY end user. No recompense, no funny business.

I've been refurbishing our 1973 ketch and have done some epoxy work in that process. I've never worked with epoxy before this. I
talked to several local glass workers and researched on line to learn a bit about epoxy. I searched for different vendors and
their
prices. I settled on a place in New Hampshire called Progressive Epoxy Polymers. (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/main.html)

My first thought was, what a mess of a website. I found it very confusing. Since I first came upon it, there have been improvements
made to make it more "user friendly". Aside from that, the site is most informative to this beginning DIY'r. I was won over by
the
explanations, descriptions of chemistries, MSD's , suggested usages, and personal responsiveness of the owner and his wife. I did a
calculation of prices per ounce, approximating the match of the different brand's products. I realize that there is no way I
can say I'm
comparing the same chemistry of different brands. Nevertheless, Progressive Epoxy prices remain the best I have found.

I've used the Premium No Blush (~15 gallons), Low-V (~2 gal), a putty with kevlar, and some elastomeric stuff. In addition I've
used the fumed silica, micro balloons, ezy-thick, chopped glass & milled glass.

Progressive Epoxy Polymers is my epoxy source, I recommend them.

That web site is the biggest reason I don't buy from them, and I know
Paul is reading this. I have tried several times to get to a simple
page with prices on it and waste so much time going around in circles,
I just buy it from someone else. I honestly consider it the worst site
on the web I've ever visited.
I'm sure his product is excellent and if I called him on the phone
he's give me the answers, and go to great lengths to help me out, but
most of the time I'm looking for answers on a Saturday or Sunday
morning, so I look on the web.
I also know Paul has helped many people on this forum in the past and
I always read his advice. He is professional, forthright and always
polite.
I was going to talk to Paul about his web site, but didn't know how to
go about it. Maybe this will have him take another look at it.
Then again, he might just tell me to go pound sand. It is his web site
and his company and he has every right to whatever he wants to.
Dan




On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:12:00 -0600, Doug Siddens
wrote:

The following is my opinion of a good company. My affiliation is as a DIY end user. No recompense, no funny business.

I've been refurbishing our 1973 ketch and have done some epoxy work in that process. I've never worked with epoxy before this. I
talked to several local glass workers and researched on line to learn a bit about epoxy. I searched for different vendors and
their
prices. I settled on a place in New Hampshire called Progressive Epoxy Polymers. (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/main.html)

My first thought was, what a mess of a website. I found it very confusing. Since I first came upon it, there have been improvements
made to make it more "user friendly". Aside from that, the site is most informative to this beginning DIY'r. I was won over by
the
explanations, descriptions of chemistries, MSD's , suggested usages, and personal responsiveness of the owner and his wife. I did a
calculation of prices per ounce, approximating the match of the different brand's products. I realize that there is no way I
can say I'm
comparing the same chemistry of different brands. Nevertheless, Progressive Epoxy prices remain the best I have found.

I've used the Premium No Blush (~15 gallons), Low-V (~2 gal), a putty with kevlar, and some elastomeric stuff. In addition I've
used the fumed silica, micro balloons, ezy-thick, chopped glass & milled glass.

Progressive Epoxy Polymers is my epoxy source, I recommend them.

Pirateer guy wrote:
That web site is the biggest reason I don't buy from them, and I know
Paul is reading this. I have tried several times to get to a simple
page with prices on it and waste so much time going around in circles,
I just buy it from someone else. I honestly consider it the worst site
on the web I've ever visited.
I'm sure his product is excellent and if I called him on the phone
he's give me the answers, and go to great lengths to help me out, but
most of the time I'm looking for answers on a Saturday or Sunday
morning, so I look on the web.
I also know Paul has helped many people on this forum in the past and
I always read his advice. He is professional, forthright and always
polite.
I was going to talk to Paul about his web site, but didn't know how to
go about it. Maybe this will have him take another look at it.
Then again, he might just tell me to go pound sand. It is his web site
and his company and he has every right to whatever he wants to.
Dan

Sadly, you're right. Short of adding gratuitous moving graphics and
goofy background music, the site couldn't get much worse. The layout is
confusing and visually, it's a major affront to the eyes. You don't even
know what company's site you're on until you scroll past the first
screen of poorly organized text. Who in their right mind starts a site
that sells products with a legal notice and an announcement that their
return policy is strictly enforced?

Simple, easy to use navigation is key to a successful website and it
amazes me how few people understand that. They end up designing sites
that mimic a pile of notes and scraps on a desk, rather than an orderly
document. No matter how good one's products and pricing are, if people
cannot find what they want - typically in 3-6 mouse clicks - they'll
simply go elsewhere as Dan did.

No business can afford to have a website that bad, especially in an
economy where you're working hard for every dollar and every customer is
critical.

Paul, if you're reading this, please go to Vincent Flanders' site
webpagesthatsuck.com and/or buy a copy of his book "Son of Web Pages
that Suck". His site and books teach good web design by showing poor web
design. When I built my own site, his guidance helped prevent me from
making many of the common mistakes that new web site builders do. It's
not difficult to do it better, it just takes an understanding of what's
involved.


On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:12:00 -0600, Doug Siddens
wrote:

The following is my opinion of a good company. My affiliation is as a DIY end user. No recompense, no funny business.

I've been refurbishing our 1973 ketch and have done some epoxy work in that process. I've never worked with epoxy before this. I
talked to several local glass workers and researched on line to learn a bit about epoxy. I searched for different vendors and
their
prices. I settled on a place in New Hampshire called Progressive Epoxy Polymers. (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/main.html)

My first thought was, what a mess of a website. I found it very confusing. Since I first came upon it, there have been improvements
made to make it more "user friendly". Aside from that, the site is most informative to this beginning DIY'r. I was won over by
the
explanations, descriptions of chemistries, MSD's , suggested usages, and personal responsiveness of the owner and his wife. I did a
calculation of prices per ounce, approximating the match of the different brand's products. I realize that there is no way I
can say I'm
comparing the same chemistry of different brands. Nevertheless, Progressive Epoxy prices remain the best I have found.

I've used the Premium No Blush (~15 gallons), Low-V (~2 gal), a putty with kevlar, and some elastomeric stuff. In addition I've
used the fumed silica, micro balloons, ezy-thick, chopped glass & milled glass.

Progressive Epoxy Polymers is my epoxy source, I recommend them.

On Dec 20, 3:13*am, Brian Nystrom wrote:
Pirateer guy wrote:
That web site is the biggest reason I don't buy from them, and I know
Paul is reading this. I have tried several times to get to a simple
page with prices on it and waste so much time going around in circles,
I just buy it from someone else. I honestly consider it the worst site
on the web I've ever visited.
I'm sure his product is excellent and if I called him on the phone
he's give me the answers, and go to great lengths to help me out, but
most of the time I'm looking for answers on a Saturday or Sunday
morning, so I look on the web.
I also know Paul has helped many people on this forum in the past and
I always read his advice. He is professional, forthright and always
polite.
I was going to talk to Paul about his web site, but didn't know how to
go about it. Maybe this will have him take another look at it.
Then again, he might just tell me to go pound sand. It is his web site
and his company and he has every right to whatever he wants to.
Dan

Sadly, you're right. Short of adding gratuitous moving graphics and
goofy background music, the site couldn't get much worse. The layout is
confusing and visually, it's a major affront to the eyes. You don't even
know what company's site you're on until you scroll past the first
screen of poorly organized text. Who in their right mind starts a site
that sells products with a legal notice and an announcement that their
return policy is strictly enforced?

Simple, easy to use navigation is key to a successful website and it
amazes me how few people understand that. They end up designing sites
that mimic a pile of notes and scraps on a desk, rather than an orderly
document. No matter how good one's products and pricing are, if people
cannot find what they want - typically in 3-6 mouse clicks - they'll
simply go elsewhere as Dan did.

No business can afford to have a website that bad, especially in an
economy where you're working hard for every dollar and every customer is
critical.

Paul, if you're reading this, please go to Vincent Flanders' site
webpagesthatsuck.com and/or buy a copy of his book "Son of Web Pages
that Suck". His site and books teach good web design by showing poor web
design. When I built my own site, his guidance helped prevent me from
making many of the common mistakes that new web site builders do. It's
not difficult to do it better, it just takes an understanding of what's
involved.





On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:12:00 -0600, Doug Siddens
wrote:

The following is my opinion of a good company. *My affiliation is as a DIY end user. *No recompense, no funny business.

I've been refurbishing our 1973 ketch and have done some epoxy work in that process. *I've never worked with epoxy before this. *I
talked to several local glass workers and researched on line to learn a bit about epoxy. *I searched for different vendors and
their
prices. *I settled on a place in New Hampshire called Progressive Epoxy Polymers. *(http://www.epoxyproducts.com/main.html)

My first thought was, what a mess of a website. *I found it very confusing. *Since I first came upon it, there have been improvements
made to make it more "user friendly". * *Aside from that, the site is most informative to this beginning DIY'r. *I was won over by
the
explanations, descriptions of chemistries, MSD's , suggested usages, and personal responsiveness of the owner and his wife. *I did a
calculation of prices per ounce, approximating the match of the different brand's products. *I realize that there is no way I
can say I'm
comparing the same chemistry of different brands. *Nevertheless, *Progressive Epoxy prices remain the best I have found. *

I've used the Premium No Blush (~15 gallons), Low-V (~2 gal), a putty with kevlar, and some elastomeric stuff. *In addition I've
used the fumed silica, micro balloons, ezy-thick, chopped glass & milled glass.

Progressive Epoxy Polymers is my epoxy source, I recommend them.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ya know he might not know how to do a web page (its not like its
freeking easy).
so maybe some one whith web design skills could maybe offer a hand.

Hi Guys! appreciate all the feedback and comments - no bad feelings.
Though I would explain why some of the quirks in the web site. - I love
the 'who would put a legal notice at the top of a web page' comment. The
remark could be the best Christmas present I've every got (could be
worth thousands of dollars). Here why:

(a made up - extreme case) very year or so there is some 'nut' emails
you with a leaky boat problem. You tell him to fix it with epoxy. He
buys some epoxy for $75. Next thing you hear is that you are being sued
for $50,000 because you told him to use epoxy and he did but the boat
sank and his cat died. The lawyers ask if you legal disclaimers on your
site and other legal notices that could get you off the hook. You say
yes, but they counter that the disclaimers are hard to find, easily over
looked etc. etc. Judge agrees and you lose. My disclaimers are right up
front as you pointed out - you cannot overlook them.

The legal issues involving trade over the internet are not well defined.
Issues like trademarks and meta tag usage, and selling products in
states you don't have agents in, etc. can get you in federal court. Of
course, on such stupid claims you will probably win the case, but not
until you've paid a $400 an hour lawyer for 30 hours of his time, flown
cross country with hotel and car charges while you sit in the
courthouse and your business goes down the tubes.

For your information - the legal ramifications of doing business on the
web are nasty and still subject to differing legal interp. You could
loss everything through no fault of your own.

Hope this explains a few things and the risks of internet business. Most
of you have read of the suits filed against ebay, amazon, etc. all the
time by folks trying to cash in on vague internet business rules.

Our site - epoxyproducts.com, has over 175 pages. Hard to organize that
many. Our customers range for nuclear power plants to folks wanting to
dip there fishing flies into our fumed silica.The guy with the boat
doesn't want info on how to paint his garage floor. The beginner thinks
he can buy one part epoxy in hot pink. The experienced user wants the
pricing on 30 gallons of marine epoxy. Some folks want to know why we
cannot ship a certain product to California. Industrial buyers want only
access to MSDS info.

We could be like everyone and just list products but we try to educate
folks about the products and even mention the bad aspects of our
products. Like why you might not want to use coal tar epoxy (which we
sell) even if the guy at the boatyard told you to. Yes, lots and lots of
links. Confusing, but it also puts us at the top of the search engines -
something other companies would almost kill for (and something that will
make or destroy your company).

We do try to make it easy to use the site. Page types are color coded,
there is a single page list of products and prices, a site only google
search engine, help page/index page (like in a book).

Yes, the site is funky. Folks love or hate it but it works (better to be
at the top of the search engines and lose a few customers than not be
found on the search engines, have an cookie cutter web site and a total
of three customers). The site supports my wife and I and one has to be
careful not to "kill the goose with the golden eggs" by 'fixing' the web
site to conform to the million of other web sites out there. Heck, if it
was an ordinary web site, we wouldn't be talking about it now. Maybe
having the worst site is just as productive as having the best site?

We are a mom and pop business operating out of our home in New Hampshire
- guess we also like to color outside of the box a bit too. And we're
not trying to get rich off of slick copy/ads etc. huge markups etc. -
just want to make a living and pay the electric bill and sleep well at
night. - thanks guys and Merry Christmas to everyone! -- paul oman
-----------------------------


Brian Nystrom wrote:
Pirateer guy wrote:
That web site is the biggest reason I don't buy from them, and I know
Paul is reading this. I have tried several times to get to a simple
page with prices on it and waste so much time going around in circles,
I just buy it from someone else. I honestly consider it the worst site
on the web I've ever visited. I'm sure his product is excellent and
if I called him on the phone
he's give me the answers, and go to great lengths to help me out, but
most of the time I'm looking for answers on a Saturday or Sunday
morning, so I look on the web.
I also know Paul has helped many people on this forum in the past and
I always read his advice. He is professional, forthright and always
polite. I was going to talk to Paul about his web site, but didn't
know how to
go about it. Maybe this will have him take another look at it.
Then again, he might just tell me to go pound sand. It is his web site
and his company and he has every right to whatever he wants to.
Dan

Sadly, you're right. Short of adding gratuitous moving graphics and
goofy background music, the site couldn't get much worse. The layout
is confusing and visually, it's a major affront to the eyes. You don't
even know what company's site you're on until you scroll past the
first screen of poorly organized text. Who in their right mind starts
a site that sells products with a legal notice and an announcement
that their return policy is strictly enforced?

Simple, easy to use navigation is key to a successful website and it
amazes me how few people understand that. They end up designing sites
that mimic a pile of notes and scraps on a desk, rather than an
orderly document. No matter how good one's products and pricing are,
if people cannot find what they want - typically in 3-6 mouse clicks -
they'll simply go elsewhere as Dan did.

No business can afford to have a website that bad, especially in an
economy where you're working hard for every dollar and every customer
is critical.

Paul, if you're reading this, please go to Vincent Flanders' site
webpagesthatsuck.com and/or buy a copy of his book "Son of Web Pages
that Suck". His site and books teach good web design by showing poor
web design. When I built my own site, his guidance helped prevent me
from making many of the common mistakes that new web site builders do.
It's not difficult to do it better, it just takes an understanding of
what's involved.


On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:12:00 -0600, Doug Siddens
wrote:

The following is my opinion of a good company. My affiliation is as
a DIY end user. No recompense, no funny business.

I've been refurbishing our 1973 ketch and have done some epoxy work
in that process. I've never worked with epoxy before this. I
talked to several local glass workers and researched on line to
learn a bit about epoxy. I searched for different vendors and their
prices. I settled on a place in New Hampshire called Progressive
Epoxy Polymers. (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/main.html)

My first thought was, what a mess of a website. I found it very
confusing. Since I first came upon it, there have been improvements
made to make it more "user friendly". Aside from that, the site
is most informative to this beginning DIY'r. I was won over by the
explanations, descriptions of chemistries, MSD's , suggested usages,
and personal responsiveness of the owner and his wife. I did a
calculation of prices per ounce, approximating the match of the
different brand's products. I realize that there is no way I can
say I'm comparing the same chemistry of different brands.
Nevertheless, Progressive Epoxy prices remain the best I have found.
I've used the Premium No Blush (~15 gallons), Low-V (~2 gal), a
putty with kevlar, and some elastomeric stuff. In addition I've
used the fumed silica, micro balloons, ezy-thick, chopped glass &
milled glass.

Progressive Epoxy Polymers is my epoxy source, I recommend them.

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:09:01 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:


Hi Guys! appreciate all the feedback and comments - no bad feelings.
Though I would explain why some of the quirks in the web site. - I love
the 'who would put a legal notice at the top of a web page' comment. The
remark could be the best Christmas present I've every got (could be
worth thousands of dollars). Here why:

(a made up - extreme case) very year or so there is some 'nut' emails
you with a leaky boat problem. You tell him to fix it with epoxy. He
buys some epoxy for $75. Next thing you hear is that you are being sued
for $50,000 because you told him to use epoxy and he did but the boat
sank and his cat died. The lawyers ask if you legal disclaimers on your
site and other legal notices that could get you off the hook. You say
yes, but they counter that the disclaimers are hard to find, easily over
looked etc. etc. Judge agrees and you lose. My disclaimers are right up
front as you pointed out - you cannot overlook them.

The legal issues involving trade over the internet are not well defined.
Issues like trademarks and meta tag usage, and selling products in
states you don't have agents in, etc. can get you in federal court. Of
course, on such stupid claims you will probably win the case, but not
until you've paid a $400 an hour lawyer for 30 hours of his time, flown
cross country with hotel and car charges while you sit in the
courthouse and your business goes down the tubes.

For your information - the legal ramifications of doing business on the
web are nasty and still subject to differing legal interp. You could
loss everything through no fault of your own.

Hope this explains a few things and the risks of internet business. Most
of you have read of the suits filed against ebay, amazon, etc. all the
time by folks trying to cash in on vague internet business rules.

Our site - epoxyproducts.com, has over 175 pages. Hard to organize that
many. Our customers range for nuclear power plants to folks wanting to
dip there fishing flies into our fumed silica.The guy with the boat
doesn't want info on how to paint his garage floor. The beginner thinks
he can buy one part epoxy in hot pink. The experienced user wants the
pricing on 30 gallons of marine epoxy. Some folks want to know why we
cannot ship a certain product to California. Industrial buyers want only
access to MSDS info.

We could be like everyone and just list products but we try to educate
folks about the products and even mention the bad aspects of our
products. Like why you might not want to use coal tar epoxy (which we
sell) even if the guy at the boatyard told you to. Yes, lots and lots of
links. Confusing, but it also puts us at the top of the search engines -
something other companies would almost kill for (and something that will
make or destroy your company).

We do try to make it easy to use the site. Page types are color coded,
there is a single page list of products and prices, a site only google
search engine, help page/index page (like in a book).

Yes, the site is funky. Folks love or hate it but it works (better to be
at the top of the search engines and lose a few customers than not be
found on the search engines, have an cookie cutter web site and a total
of three customers). The site supports my wife and I and one has to be
careful not to "kill the goose with the golden eggs" by 'fixing' the web
site to conform to the million of other web sites out there. Heck, if it
was an ordinary web site, we wouldn't be talking about it now. Maybe
having the worst site is just as productive as having the best site?

We are a mom and pop business operating out of our home in New Hampshire
- guess we also like to color outside of the box a bit too. And we're
not trying to get rich off of slick copy/ads etc. huge markups etc. -
just want to make a living and pay the electric bill and sleep well at
night. - thanks guys and Merry Christmas to everyone! -- paul oman
-----------------------------

Paul,

I have visited your site a number of times and there is a fantastic
amount of information there but, as the man said, it is poorly
organized.

I understand your reasoning, as you state above, but never the less
the site is difficult to navigate.

I suggest that one of the reasons is that you probably designed the
site and therefore you know your way around the pages blindfolded.

For what it is worth, I'd like to suggest that you have a friend,
someone who isn't intimately familiar with the site, log on and have a
look. Then listen to his comments.

I think that the overriding point is that you DO NOT want potential
customers to log onto the site and go away frustrated.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:09:01 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:

Hi Guys! appreciate all the feedback and comments - no bad feelings.
Though I would explain why some of the quirks in the web site. - I love
the 'who would put a legal notice at the top of a web page' comment. The
remark could be the best Christmas present I've every got (could be
worth thousands of dollars). Here why:

(a made up - extreme case) very year or so there is some 'nut' emails
you with a leaky boat problem. You tell him to fix it with epoxy. He
buys some epoxy for $75. Next thing you hear is that you are being sued
for $50,000 because you told him to use epoxy and he did but the boat
sank and his cat died. The lawyers ask if you legal disclaimers on your
site and other legal notices that could get you off the hook. You say
yes, but they counter that the disclaimers are hard to find, easily over
looked etc. etc. Judge agrees and you lose. My disclaimers are right up
front as you pointed out - you cannot overlook them.

The legal issues involving trade over the internet are not well defined.
Issues like trademarks and meta tag usage, and selling products in
states you don't have agents in, etc. can get you in federal court. Of
course, on such stupid claims you will probably win the case, but not
until you've paid a $400 an hour lawyer for 30 hours of his time, flown
cross country with hotel and car charges while you sit in the
courthouse and your business goes down the tubes.

For your information - the legal ramifications of doing business on the
web are nasty and still subject to differing legal interp. You could
loss everything through no fault of your own.

Hope this explains a few things and the risks of internet business. Most
of you have read of the suits filed against ebay, amazon, etc. all the
time by folks trying to cash in on vague internet business rules.

Our site - epoxyproducts.com, has over 175 pages. Hard to organize that
many. Our customers range for nuclear power plants to folks wanting to
dip there fishing flies into our fumed silica.The guy with the boat
doesn't want info on how to paint his garage floor. The beginner thinks
he can buy one part epoxy in hot pink. The experienced user wants the
pricing on 30 gallons of marine epoxy. Some folks want to know why we
cannot ship a certain product to California. Industrial buyers want only
access to MSDS info.

We could be like everyone and just list products but we try to educate
folks about the products and even mention the bad aspects of our
products. Like why you might not want to use coal tar epoxy (which we
sell) even if the guy at the boatyard told you to. Yes, lots and lots of
links. Confusing, but it also puts us at the top of the search engines -
something other companies would almost kill for (and something that will
make or destroy your company).

We do try to make it easy to use the site. Page types are color coded,
there is a single page list of products and prices, a site only google
search engine, help page/index page (like in a book).

Yes, the site is funky. Folks love or hate it but it works (better to be
at the top of the search engines and lose a few customers than not be
found on the search engines, have an cookie cutter web site and a total
of three customers). The site supports my wife and I and one has to be
careful not to "kill the goose with the golden eggs" by 'fixing' the web
site to conform to the million of other web sites out there. Heck, if it
was an ordinary web site, we wouldn't be talking about it now. Maybe
having the worst site is just as productive as having the best site?

We are a mom and pop business operating out of our home in New Hampshire
- guess we also like to color outside of the box a bit too. And we're
not trying to get rich off of slick copy/ads etc. huge markups etc. -
just want to make a living and pay the electric bill and sleep well at
night. - thanks guys and Merry Christmas to everyone! -- paul oman
-----------------------------

Paul,

I have visited your site a number of times and there is a fantastic
amount of information there but, as the man said, it is poorly
organized.

I understand your reasoning, as you state above, but never the less
the site is difficult to navigate.

I suggest that one of the reasons is that you probably designed the
site and therefore you know your way around the pages blindfolded.

For what it is worth, I'd like to suggest that you have a friend,
someone who isn't intimately familiar with the site, log on and have a
look. Then listen to his comments.

I think that the overriding point is that you DO NOT want potential
customers to log onto the site and go away frustrated.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Put your legal disclaimers link on the top of EACH and EVERY article
page and your T&C on any page that even mentions a specific orderable
product, but for heaven's sake keep them OFF the top of the home and
index pages (you might wish to put them immediately below your company
blurb on the home page and also put them up with a check box 'I have
read and understood . . .' as part of the ordering process).

Get the Home page down to 3 or 4 screens full absolute maximum.

Loose the light coloured text on the textured background - its hard to
read and may even be illegal under your jurisdiction's disability
discrimination legalisation. Some of the pages with plain coloured
backgrounds are if possible *worse*. :-( Are you actually trying to win
an ugly website award for the publicity?

Consider adding a decent drop down menu for navigation. It can be done
in pure CSS without a shred of javascript. (Look at
http://www.grc.com for an open source, free to reuse example then at
http://splike.com/projects/cssmenu.html for a minimalist version
(albeit in butt-ugly colours so you can see which bit is which) for a
version that isn't too much work to customise to suit.) Done right they
are cross browser and cross platform compatible for all systems built
after about 2000 and useable as a page of text links on anything older.
On all modern browsers you can even get them to 'float' at the very top
of the page as you scroll down so the navigation bar is always handy.
Internet Explorer 6 users will have to scroll back up to the top though.
(I'm pretty anti-javascript because just about *all* of the major web
security scares involve it. I'm not alone . . . Also Google doesn't do
well at following Javascript links so your generally good page rankings
could suffer if you do the menu that way)

Sort out that site map, the graphic has virtually unreadable text and
isn't clickable for navigation. Put the links form site map on the same
page below it.

I'm sorry Paul, but although you have all that wonderful advice and info
there, and are so responsive here, the only way I can work with your
site is by googling it!

http://www.google.com/search?as_sitesearch=epoxyproducts.com then add
any further search terms :-(

I wouldn't have spent so long on this if I didn't think that the
technical detail on your site is a tremendous resource that deserves
better.

I'm sure lots of folks are finding this interesting reading and learning
about the ins and outs of website based businesses. To sum it up in a
few lines, the lawyers want business web sites set up one way, Google
and the search engines what it set up another way and web designers and
visitors want it set up yet another way. Sites like epoxyproducts.com
(the subject of this thread) try to include all three. Other business
web sites (especially new businesses!) just go after one of the three
(usually the web designer's model) not knowing or realizing anything
about the other two. If you are lucky, you can get away with it, at
least for a while. But if you're in business for a few years, the other
two will eventually bite you in the butt if you ignore them. I suppose
the epoxyproducts.com web site rates the search engine requirements
first, the legal issues second, and then the web designer's model - thus
making everyone unhappy (always room for improvement in all three
approaches)! But from personal experience and as owner of the website
and business, I think that my ranking of web site priorities generates
the most income (i.e. full time income, year after year, working from
home). Few, if any, of the professional internet consultants that
contact me have their own web sites matching the income that mine
generates (especially if they have to 'cold call/cold email' me and
others to get business). I sometimes think they should be asking me for
help! cheers - paul oman

PS - love the feedback! As suggested below, my lawyer wanted me to have
the 'click here' to proceed to the web site after acknowledging the
legal stuff. I thought that was a bit too much (only the giant corporate
web sites go to that legal extreme) and would turn off too many
visitors. I do try to improve and work on the site nearly everyday, but
of course product (epoxy) and service have to come before web play.

-----------------------------------------------------

IanM wrote:
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:09:01 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:

Hi Guys! appreciate all the feedback and comments - no bad
feelings. Though I would explain why some of the quirks in the web
site. - I love the 'who would put a legal notice at the top of a web
page' comment. The remark could be the best Christmas present I've
every got (could be worth thousands of dollars). Here why:

(a made up - extreme case) very year or so there is some 'nut'
emails you with a leaky boat problem. You tell him to fix it with
epoxy. He buys some epoxy for $75. Next thing you hear is that you
are being sued for $50,000 because you told him to use epoxy and he
did but the boat sank and his cat died. The lawyers ask if you legal
disclaimers on your site and other legal notices that could get you
off the hook. You say yes, but they counter that the disclaimers are
hard to find, easily over looked etc. etc. Judge agrees and you
lose. My disclaimers are right up front as you pointed out - you
cannot overlook them.

The legal issues involving trade over the internet are not well
defined. Issues like trademarks and meta tag usage, and selling
products in states you don't have agents in, etc. can get you in
federal court. Of course, on such stupid claims you will probably
win the case, but not until you've paid a $400 an hour lawyer for 30
hours of his time, flown cross country with hotel and car charges
while you sit in the courthouse and your business goes down the tubes.

For your information - the legal ramifications of doing business on
the web are nasty and still subject to differing legal interp. You
could loss everything through no fault of your own.

Hope this explains a few things and the risks of internet business.
Most of you have read of the suits filed against ebay, amazon, etc.
all the time by folks trying to cash in on vague internet business
rules.

Our site - epoxyproducts.com, has over 175 pages. Hard to organize
that many. Our customers range for nuclear power plants to folks
wanting to dip there fishing flies into our fumed silica.The guy
with the boat doesn't want info on how to paint his garage floor.
The beginner thinks he can buy one part epoxy in hot pink. The
experienced user wants the pricing on 30 gallons of marine epoxy.
Some folks want to know why we cannot ship a certain product to
California. Industrial buyers want only access to MSDS info.

We could be like everyone and just list products but we try to
educate folks about the products and even mention the bad aspects of
our products. Like why you might not want to use coal tar epoxy
(which we sell) even if the guy at the boatyard told you to. Yes,
lots and lots of links. Confusing, but it also puts us at the top of
the search engines - something other companies would almost kill for
(and something that will make or destroy your company).

We do try to make it easy to use the site. Page types are color
coded, there is a single page list of products and prices, a site
only google search engine, help page/index page (like in a book).

Yes, the site is funky. Folks love or hate it but it works (better
to be at the top of the search engines and lose a few customers than
not be found on the search engines, have an cookie cutter web site
and a total of three customers). The site supports my wife and I and
one has to be careful not to "kill the goose with the golden eggs"
by 'fixing' the web site to conform to the million of other web
sites out there. Heck, if it was an ordinary web site, we wouldn't
be talking about it now. Maybe having the worst site is just as
productive as having the best site?

We are a mom and pop business operating out of our home in New
Hampshire - guess we also like to color outside of the box a bit
too. And we're not trying to get rich off of slick copy/ads etc.
huge markups etc. - just want to make a living and pay the electric
bill and sleep well at night. - thanks guys and Merry Christmas to
everyone! -- paul oman
-----------------------------

Paul,

I have visited your site a number of times and there is a fantastic
amount of information there but, as the man said, it is poorly
organized.

I understand your reasoning, as you state above, but never the less
the site is difficult to navigate.

I suggest that one of the reasons is that you probably designed the
site and therefore you know your way around the pages blindfolded.

For what it is worth, I'd like to suggest that you have a friend,
someone who isn't intimately familiar with the site, log on and have a
look. Then listen to his comments.

I think that the overriding point is that you DO NOT want potential
customers to log onto the site and go away frustrated.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Put your legal disclaimers link on the top of EACH and EVERY article
page and your T&C on any page that even mentions a specific orderable
product, but for heaven's sake keep them OFF the top of the home and
index pages (you might wish to put them immediately below your company
blurb on the home page and also put them up with a check box 'I have
read and understood . . .' as part of the ordering process).

Get the Home page down to 3 or 4 screens full absolute maximum.

Loose the light coloured text on the textured background - its hard to
read and may even be illegal under your jurisdiction's disability
discrimination legalisation. Some of the pages with plain coloured
backgrounds are if possible *worse*. :-( Are you actually trying to
win an ugly website award for the publicity?

Consider adding a decent drop down menu for navigation. It can be done
in pure CSS without a shred of javascript. (Look at
http://www.grc.com for an open source, free to reuse example then at
http://splike.com/projects/cssmenu.html for a minimalist version
(albeit in butt-ugly colours so you can see which bit is which) for a
version that isn't too much work to customise to suit.) Done right
they are cross browser and cross platform compatible for all systems
built after about 2000 and useable as a page of text links on anything
older. On all modern browsers you can even get them to 'float' at the
very top of the page as you scroll down so the navigation bar is
always handy. Internet Explorer 6 users will have to scroll back up to
the top though.
(I'm pretty anti-javascript because just about *all* of the major web
security scares involve it. I'm not alone . . . Also Google doesn't
do well at following Javascript links so your generally good page
rankings could suffer if you do the menu that way)

Sort out that site map, the graphic has virtually unreadable text and
isn't clickable for navigation. Put the links form site map on the
same page below it.

I'm sorry Paul, but although you have all that wonderful advice and
info there, and are so responsive here, the only way I can work with
your site is by googling it!

http://www.google.com/search?as_sitesearch=epoxyproducts.com then
add any further search terms :-(

I wouldn't have spent so long on this if I didn't think that the
technical detail on your site is a tremendous resource that deserves
better.

Paul,

There is no conflict between the three design criteria you list below.
Good navigation helps in all three areas.

First off, it make the site easy to navigate, so your customers - who
should be your first priority - can find what they need quickly and make
purchases easily. You can have the best SEO on the Web and you will
still lose business if your customers get frustrated with your site and
leave without buying anything. That is definitely your current situation.

Good navigation allows search engine "spiders" to easily crawl and index
your site. It benefits your SEO. It also makes it easier for customers
who come to your site from search engines to find what they need.

If your site is properly organized and pages are based on consistent
templates, your legal requirements are easily met and will be
implemented completely and consistently.

Right now, your site is not optimum in any of these areas. Your current
site "design" is hurting your business. You may be generating a good
income, which is great, but you could be doing even better. You are
literally throwing away business right now. You can rationalize this
away if you choose to, but does that really make any sense? The
consensus here is obvious and it's not just from web designers, but from
prospective customers. "Shooting the messenger" in a case like this is
pretty short-sighted; people who work in the Web industry and/or design
sites for a living know what they're talking about, especially when it
comes to the basics, which is what your site is really lacking. It's not
a matter of making a site that's visually stunning, it's a matter of
improving the most basic functionality.

Bottom line: fix your site and watch your business grow.



Paul Oman wrote:

I'm sure lots of folks are finding this interesting reading and learning
about the ins and outs of website based businesses. To sum it up in a
few lines, the lawyers want business web sites set up one way, Google
and the search engines what it set up another way and web designers and
visitors want it set up yet another way. Sites like epoxyproducts.com
(the subject of this thread) try to include all three. Other business
web sites (especially new businesses!) just go after one of the three
(usually the web designer's model) not knowing or realizing anything
about the other two. If you are lucky, you can get away with it, at
least for a while. But if you're in business for a few years, the other
two will eventually bite you in the butt if you ignore them. I suppose
the epoxyproducts.com web site rates the search engine requirements
first, the legal issues second, and then the web designer's model - thus
making everyone unhappy (always room for improvement in all three
approaches)! But from personal experience and as owner of the website
and business, I think that my ranking of web site priorities generates
the most income (i.e. full time income, year after year, working from
home). Few, if any, of the professional internet consultants that
contact me have their own web sites matching the income that mine
generates (especially if they have to 'cold call/cold email' me and
others to get business). I sometimes think they should be asking me for
help! cheers - paul oman

PS - love the feedback! As suggested below, my lawyer wanted me to have
the 'click here' to proceed to the web site after acknowledging the
legal stuff. I thought that was a bit too much (only the giant corporate
web sites go to that legal extreme) and would turn off too many
visitors. I do try to improve and work on the site nearly everyday, but
of course product (epoxy) and service have to come before web play.

-----------------------------------------------------

IanM wrote:
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:09:01 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:

Hi Guys! appreciate all the feedback and comments - no bad
feelings. Though I would explain why some of the quirks in the web
site. - I love the 'who would put a legal notice at the top of a web
page' comment. The remark could be the best Christmas present I've
every got (could be worth thousands of dollars). Here why:

(a made up - extreme case) very year or so there is some 'nut'
emails you with a leaky boat problem. You tell him to fix it with
epoxy. He buys some epoxy for $75. Next thing you hear is that you
are being sued for $50,000 because you told him to use epoxy and he
did but the boat sank and his cat died. The lawyers ask if you legal
disclaimers on your site and other legal notices that could get you
off the hook. You say yes, but they counter that the disclaimers are
hard to find, easily over looked etc. etc. Judge agrees and you
lose. My disclaimers are right up front as you pointed out - you
cannot overlook them.

The legal issues involving trade over the internet are not well
defined. Issues like trademarks and meta tag usage, and selling
products in states you don't have agents in, etc. can get you in
federal court. Of course, on such stupid claims you will probably
win the case, but not until you've paid a $400 an hour lawyer for 30
hours of his time, flown cross country with hotel and car charges
while you sit in the courthouse and your business goes down the tubes.

For your information - the legal ramifications of doing business on
the web are nasty and still subject to differing legal interp. You
could loss everything through no fault of your own.

Hope this explains a few things and the risks of internet business.
Most of you have read of the suits filed against ebay, amazon, etc.
all the time by folks trying to cash in on vague internet business
rules.

Our site - epoxyproducts.com, has over 175 pages. Hard to organize
that many. Our customers range for nuclear power plants to folks
wanting to dip there fishing flies into our fumed silica.The guy
with the boat doesn't want info on how to paint his garage floor.
The beginner thinks he can buy one part epoxy in hot pink. The
experienced user wants the pricing on 30 gallons of marine epoxy.
Some folks want to know why we cannot ship a certain product to
California. Industrial buyers want only access to MSDS info.

We could be like everyone and just list products but we try to
educate folks about the products and even mention the bad aspects of
our products. Like why you might not want to use coal tar epoxy
(which we sell) even if the guy at the boatyard told you to. Yes,
lots and lots of links. Confusing, but it also puts us at the top of
the search engines - something other companies would almost kill for
(and something that will make or destroy your company).

We do try to make it easy to use the site. Page types are color
coded, there is a single page list of products and prices, a site
only google search engine, help page/index page (like in a book).

Yes, the site is funky. Folks love or hate it but it works (better
to be at the top of the search engines and lose a few customers than
not be found on the search engines, have an cookie cutter web site
and a total of three customers). The site supports my wife and I and
one has to be careful not to "kill the goose with the golden eggs"
by 'fixing' the web site to conform to the million of other web
sites out there. Heck, if it was an ordinary web site, we wouldn't
be talking about it now. Maybe having the worst site is just as
productive as having the best site?

We are a mom and pop business operating out of our home in New
Hampshire - guess we also like to color outside of the box a bit
too. And we're not trying to get rich off of slick copy/ads etc.
huge markups etc. - just want to make a living and pay the electric
bill and sleep well at night. - thanks guys and Merry Christmas to
everyone! -- paul oman
-----------------------------

Paul,

I have visited your site a number of times and there is a fantastic
amount of information there but, as the man said, it is poorly
organized.

I understand your reasoning, as you state above, but never the less
the site is difficult to navigate.

I suggest that one of the reasons is that you probably designed the
site and therefore you know your way around the pages blindfolded.

For what it is worth, I'd like to suggest that you have a friend,
someone who isn't intimately familiar with the site, log on and have a
look. Then listen to his comments.

I think that the overriding point is that you DO NOT want potential
customers to log onto the site and go away frustrated.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Put your legal disclaimers link on the top of EACH and EVERY article
page and your T&C on any page that even mentions a specific orderable
product, but for heaven's sake keep them OFF the top of the home and
index pages (you might wish to put them immediately below your company
blurb on the home page and also put them up with a check box 'I have
read and understood . . .' as part of the ordering process).

Get the Home page down to 3 or 4 screens full absolute maximum.

Loose the light coloured text on the textured background - its hard to
read and may even be illegal under your jurisdiction's disability
discrimination legalisation. Some of the pages with plain coloured
backgrounds are if possible *worse*. :-( Are you actually trying to
win an ugly website award for the publicity?

Consider adding a decent drop down menu for navigation. It can be done
in pure CSS without a shred of javascript. (Look at
http://www.grc.com for an open source, free to reuse example then at
http://splike.com/projects/cssmenu.html for a minimalist version
(albeit in butt-ugly colours so you can see which bit is which) for a
version that isn't too much work to customise to suit.) Done right
they are cross browser and cross platform compatible for all systems
built after about 2000 and useable as a page of text links on anything
older. On all modern browsers you can even get them to 'float' at the
very top of the page as you scroll down so the navigation bar is
always handy. Internet Explorer 6 users will have to scroll back up to
the top though.
(I'm pretty anti-javascript because just about *all* of the major web
security scares involve it. I'm not alone . . . Also Google doesn't
do well at following Javascript links so your generally good page
rankings could suffer if you do the menu that way)

Sort out that site map, the graphic has virtually unreadable text and
isn't clickable for navigation. Put the links form site map on the
same page below it.

I'm sorry Paul, but although you have all that wonderful advice and
info there, and are so responsive here, the only way I can work with
your site is by googling it!

http://www.google.com/search?as_sitesearch=epoxyproducts.com then
add any further search terms :-(

I wouldn't have spent so long on this if I didn't think that the
technical detail on your site is a tremendous resource that deserves
better.

IanM wrote:
big snip
Put your legal disclaimers link on the top of EACH and EVERY article
page and your T&C on any page that even mentions a specific orderable
product, but for heaven's sake keep them OFF the top of the home and
index pages (you might wish to put them immediately below your company
blurb on the home page and also put them up with a check box 'I have
read and understood . . .' as part of the ordering process).
big snip

Paul Oman wrote:
big snip
PS - love the feedback! As suggested below, my lawyer wanted me to
have the 'click here' to proceed to the web site after acknowledging
the legal stuff. I thought that was a bit too much (only the giant
corporate web sites go to that legal extreme) and would turn off too
many visitors. I do try to improve and work on the site nearly
everyday, but of course product (epoxy) and service have to come
before web play.

We reckon you've put enough back into the boating community to deserve
our help. Any time you want to get opinions on new pages before you
link them to the rest of the site, just ask us.

I perhaps didn't make myself clear. The 'tick to proceed' should only be
when an order is actually being placed. Its *NOT* a seperate screen, but
just another box on the ordering screen. You could do it as a link to
your T&C and disclaimers, targetted to open in a new window so they dont
loose their place in the order form, next to the check box, but the
lawyer would prefer it inline. If your ordering process tracks user
ID's, put the full text up for their first order and if the T&C's have
been updated, otherwise just show the link and checkbox.

ON NO ACCOUNT put click to proceed on the home page, NO ONE except
lawyers will read it and it will **** people off even worse, but I'm
sure you already know that.

If I was doing business in the USA, I'd be listening *very* carefully to
my layer too . . .

--
Ian Malcolm, London, ENGLAND.