Duty, Honor, Safety
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Aug 16, 8:44 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

oups.com...





On Aug 16, 5:30 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

roups.com...

On Aug 16, 1:14 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
Ok lets review..I know this is hard but focus Jon.

"Sunday, August 12, when the Miss Beach Haven, with
complete disregard for the safety of others, steamed through the
very
narrow channel near Goosebar Sedge, throwing so much water so
closely
to us that you caused an injury to my crew when she fell in the
galley. "

My mistake. In that case, the CG should be notified.

Should be, but not required, because the injury did not need more than
basic first aid. had it required further medical attention then it
would be required by law.

Wow... I guess that's why I said should.

DUTY:
Perhaps he did not realize what he is doing is illegal, infact unless
he is in a no wake zone then he is doing nothing illegal, until he
hurts someone or damages someone property. He may be a cluess newbe
Capt who has no ideal what it's like to be hit with a 20 kt 5 ft wake
in a small saiboat. Someone needs to address the issue with him, and
that is Scout duty as the Captain of the affected craft.

A clueless newbe who's a licensed captain? Sure. Whatever you say.

Sure..How many deckhands do you know running a boat? So if a fellow
get a licences then he is allowed to run a boat..he will be a
newbee...like you.

Like me... someone who knows the rules and uses them every day. It's not
good enough to be unfamiliar with the rules.


Your licences is a licence to learn..not proof you know everything.

Huh? Did you forget about the exams *and* the sea time requirements?

HONOR:
Yes I feel that most licenced USMM master have hornor and will not
lie to cover up a mistake. Most will stand up and admit to a mistake.
They will not lie.

I agree.

Then why did you say he would lie? And that any smart person would
denign doing anything wrong?

This guy obviously isn't someone who knows or cares about the rules. Why do
you think he would care about lying????

Safety:
Scout letter reached the owners, the owners will address the issue
with the operator, yet I doubt they will respond directly (Advice from
the Dave's in the World)

Gee... sounds just about what I said. But, it's sounds original when it
comes from you.

You but you added that the Captain will lie, and the USCG will do
nothing.

I also said that before I realized that there was an injury, which certainly
changes the situation. It's my *opinion* (feel free to type define: opinion
into google if you're confused).

Either way the operator will not IMO do it again.

Key phrase... IMO.

Still with the personal insults.... I know you're an angry guy. Were
you
molested?

Yes vs. doing it yourself, which is not productive unless of course
you
think threatening him is the right thing to do.

Why are you always saying threatening? I rather follow thru then
threaten to follow thru

You said it not me.

No. If he has credibility, then I tend to listen. You listen to
crackpots?
Oh, that must be it.

I listen to everyone.

Apparently.

"To listen well, is as powerful a means of influence as to talk
well, and is as essential to all true conversation"

Well, there are lots of idiots out there. I try to filter them out. I
suggest you do the same. You might feel better.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Duty, Honor, Safety
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:34:47 -0400, "Scout" said:

I had hoped to get some honest feedback without having to type a
long narrative,

That kind of story should begin "Once upon a time."

Maybe then you'd pay attention.

Duty, Honor, Safety
 

"Scout" wrote:
Jon and Joe - I want to thank you and others here for giving me some
constructive criticism and sound advice for dealing with this event.


Is that what they were doing? I keep expecting to hear the teacher say
"Boys, get up from your desks and go sit in opposite corners."

There is some positive info, I guess... the requirement to report
accidents, some suggestions about how to deal with dangerous behavior
by others...



I posted my original message without much introduction, which may have been
a mistake. I had hoped to get some honest feedback without having to type a
long narrative, so I copied and pasted the letter that I sent to the
captains of the boat in question.

Did the job for me.

..... I'm not one to make up a story just
to stir trouble; the captain of that ship endangered my crew and greatly
alarmed us; I felt that no undue hardship would be caused him by the group's
discussion of the rights and responsibilities of large, fast moving boats in
narrow channels. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the name of the boat,
but at the time I wrote that piece I didn't exactly feel that I owed them
any courtesies.


Agreed again. In fact, I think that people who behave in such a way
*should* expect the public to bandy their names around.



I have not heard back from the company and I don't expect that I will unless
I push this further. I have written a formal letter of complaint and sent it
via USPS to the USCG because I was unsure of what else I could do.


In my experience, a video camera does a LOT to enforce reasonable
behavior in others. Your letter is a great idea, but it might be more
effective if you sent it to one of the directors of the finance
company that actually owns that boat.... would take some digging
around to find out who that is. If they are aware that they might be
liable, and will have their names dragged thru the mud, they might
tell the captain to shape up.... or just let him go. Lots of captains
on the beach, looking for jobs.

Frankly, I think a lot of power boaters are inconsiderate & impatient
fools, and that's why they wake other boats. A large number (probably
a minority) do in fact know that their wakes are very unpleasant and
potentially dangerous, but either don't care ("I'm in a hurry!") or
think it's funny. I've had a few power boaters that I spoke to, after
wake incidents, tell me that it would be *my* fault for not having a
boat that was "seaworthy enough."

Some places are very serious about enforcement. For example, on the
upper Hudson, local police boats will ticket wakers. In some of the
canal & river systems, a radio complaint to the next bridge or lock
will cause the bridge and/or lock keeper to hold up that boat; you can
meet him & the sheriff and tell them exactly what happened. In a case
like this, a videotape of the incident would be a perfect indictment.


I want nothing from this captain other than to make him more aware others
near him. I seek no wrath of God (Dave), I want no money, credits,
apologies, or compensation of any sort. I just want him to slow down before
someone is seriously hurt or killed.


Oh c'mon, you wouldn't turn down money.... or an apology... would ya?
;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Duty, Honor, Safety
 

On Aug 16, 10:58 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

ps.com...





On Aug 16, 8:44 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

groups.com...

On Aug 16, 5:30 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

roups.com...

On Aug 16, 1:14 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
Ok lets review..I know this is hard but focus Jon.

"Sunday, August 12, when the Miss Beach Haven, with
complete disregard for the safety of others, steamed through the
very
narrow channel near Goosebar Sedge, throwing so much water so
closely
to us that you caused an injury to my crew when she fell in the
galley. "

My mistake. In that case, the CG should be notified.

Should be, but not required, because the injury did not need more than
basic first aid. had it required further medical attention then it
would be required by law.

Wow... I guess that's why I said should.

DUTY:
Perhaps he did not realize what he is doing is illegal, infact unless
he is in a no wake zone then he is doing nothing illegal, until he
hurts someone or damages someone property. He may be a cluess newbe
Capt who has no ideal what it's like to be hit with a 20 kt 5 ft wake
in a small saiboat. Someone needs to address the issue with him, and
that is Scout duty as the Captain of the affected craft.

A clueless newbe who's a licensed captain? Sure. Whatever you say.

Sure..How many deckhands do you know running a boat? So if a fellow
get a licences then he is allowed to run a boat..he will be a
newbee...like you.

Like me... someone who knows the rules and uses them every day. It's not
good enough to be unfamiliar with the rules.

Where in the rules does it say you can not throw a wake on anyone?



Your licences is a licence to learn..not proof you know everything.

Huh? Did you forget about the exams *and* the sea time requirements?

Again, your licences is a licences to learn.

Jon, I trained many many new skippers on 100 ton boats..In the oil
field you would work under another master until he OK'ed it with the
company to turn you loose with a 10 millin dollar + boat. With what
you said above it would be a long long time and several humbeling
events before I would turn you loose with a boat and crew.

You remind me of one fellow I called Capt Crunch. We were running in
to SW pass of the Missippi and he grounded my boat on a sand bar..120
footer. Threw me out of the bunk. He came in at a right angle of the
pass ...way of course. I got up, took me about an hour to dig the boat
off the bar and get it back on course...then the ****ball has the
guall to complain that he should have been allowed to dig the boat off
after the MF was standing there shivering not knowing what to do. I
never allowed him to take the wheel except in open water again.. Thank
God... He quit.

Like you he thought because he had a licences that he knew everything
needed to run a boat.



HONOR:
Yes I feel that most licenced USMM master have hornor and will not
lie to cover up a mistake. Most will stand up and admit to a mistake.
They will not lie.

I agree.

Then why did you say he would lie? And that any smart person would
denign doing anything wrong?

This guy obviously isn't someone who knows or cares about the rules. Why do
you think he would care about lying????

Again show me where in the rules it says you can not produce a wake.


Safety:
Scout letter reached the owners, the owners will address the issue
with the operator, yet I doubt they will respond directly (Advice from
the Dave's in the World)

Gee... sounds just about what I said. But, it's sounds original when it
comes from you.

You but you added that the Captain will lie, and the USCG will do
nothing.

I also said that before I realized that there was an injury, which certainly
changes the situation. It's my *opinion* (feel free to type define: opinion
into google if you're confused).





Either way the operator will not IMO do it again.

Key phrase... IMO.

Still with the personal insults.... I know you're an angry guy. Were
you
molested?

Yes vs. doing it yourself, which is not productive unless of course
you
think threatening him is the right thing to do.

Why are you always saying threatening? I rather follow thru then
threaten to follow thru

You said it not me.

No. If he has credibility, then I tend to listen. You listen to
crackpots?
Oh, that must be it.

I listen to everyone.

Apparently.

"To listen well, is as powerful a means of influence as to talk
well, and is as essential to all true conversation"

Well, there are lots of idiots out there. I try to filter them out. I
suggest you do the same. You might feel better.

Einsteins math teachers thought he was an idiot too...After I listen
to someone then I filter them out if they have nothing to offer. You
should try it, you might be better off for it.

When I got my first ticket I thought just like you... until someone
clearly showed me the error of my ways.. He was a true Master Mariner,
worked his way up from a deckhand to become the president of the
largest offshore supply vessel company in the USA, with over 120- 220+
ft boats under his command in less than 5 years.

Joe

--
"j" ganz - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Duty, Honor, Safety
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ps.com...

Einsteins math teachers thought he was an idiot too...After I listen
to someone then I filter them out if they have nothing to offer. You
should try it, you might be better off for it.

Are you suggesting he filter himself out? Hmmmmm, not a bad suggestion.

Wilbur Hubbard

Duty, Honor, Safety
 

"Scout" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:34:47 -0400, "Scout"
said:

I had hoped to get some honest feedback without having to type a
long narrative,

That kind of story should begin "Once upon a time."

Maybe then you'd pay attention.



Dave only pays attention when he hears the sound of an ambulance! :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Duty, Honor, Safety
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Aug 16, 10:58 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

ps.com...





On Aug 16, 8:44 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

groups.com...

On Aug 16, 5:30 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

roups.com...

On Aug 16, 1:14 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
Ok lets review..I know this is hard but focus Jon.

"Sunday, August 12, when the Miss Beach Haven, with
complete disregard for the safety of others, steamed through the
very
narrow channel near Goosebar Sedge, throwing so much water so
closely
to us that you caused an injury to my crew when she fell in the
galley. "

My mistake. In that case, the CG should be notified.

Should be, but not required, because the injury did not need more
than
basic first aid. had it required further medical attention then it
would be required by law.

Wow... I guess that's why I said should.

DUTY:
Perhaps he did not realize what he is doing is illegal, infact
unless
he is in a no wake zone then he is doing nothing illegal, until he
hurts someone or damages someone property. He may be a cluess newbe
Capt who has no ideal what it's like to be hit with a 20 kt 5 ft
wake
in a small saiboat. Someone needs to address the issue with him, and
that is Scout duty as the Captain of the affected craft.

A clueless newbe who's a licensed captain? Sure. Whatever you say.

Sure..How many deckhands do you know running a boat? So if a fellow
get a licences then he is allowed to run a boat..he will be a
newbee...like you.

Like me... someone who knows the rules and uses them every day. It's not
good enough to be unfamiliar with the rules.

Where in the rules does it say you can not throw a wake on anyone?

So, you think it's ok then?

Your licences is a licence to learn..not proof you know everything.

Huh? Did you forget about the exams *and* the sea time requirements?

Again, your licences is a licences to learn.

What? No way. You get a license, you're legally responsible. End of story.
If you learn more, that's great, but it has nothing to do with your current
license.

Jon, I trained many many new skippers on 100 ton boats..In the oil
field you would work under another master until he OK'ed it with the
company to turn you loose with a 10 millin dollar + boat. With what
you said above it would be a long long time and several humbeling
events before I would turn you loose with a boat and crew.

Different situation. No one would just hand over a 100 ton boat to a novice,
but the *license* has nothing to say about that. You're qualified, as far as
the CG is concerned.

You remind me of one fellow I called Capt Crunch. We were running in
to SW pass of the Missippi and he grounded my boat on a sand bar..120
footer. Threw me out of the bunk. He came in at a right angle of the
pass ...way of course. I got up, took me about an hour to dig the boat
off the bar and get it back on course...then the ****ball has the
guall to complain that he should have been allowed to dig the boat off
after the MF was standing there shivering not knowing what to do. I
never allowed him to take the wheel except in open water again.. Thank
God... He quit.

Sounds like you made the mistake of handing him the keys. How this reminds
you of me, I have no idea unless he was very, very good looking.

Like you he thought because he had a licences that he knew everything
needed to run a boat.

Never said that. Now you're just making things up.


This guy obviously isn't someone who knows or cares about the rules. Why
do
you think he would care about lying????

Again show me where in the rules it says you can not produce a wake.

Again, if you don't know, I think you need to go back to school. Is your
license still valid?

Well, there are lots of idiots out there. I try to filter them out. I
suggest you do the same. You might feel better.

Einsteins math teachers thought he was an idiot too...After I listen
to someone then I filter them out if they have nothing to offer. You
should try it, you might be better off for it.

Actually, that's not accurate about Einstein, but whatever.

How long do you have to listen? Perhaps you should take a remedial course in
listening skills.

When I got my first ticket I thought just like you... until someone
clearly showed me the error of my ways.. He was a true Master Mariner,
worked his way up from a deckhand to become the president of the
largest offshore supply vessel company in the USA, with over 120- 220+
ft boats under his command in less than 5 years.

Joe

I sincerely doubt you "thought just like" me. Learning about a boat has
nothing to do with knowing the rules. Two completely different things,
except in your mind of course, but don't worry, you'll have to listen for a
bit longer I suspect, before you understand. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Duty, Honor, Safety
 

On Aug 17, 11:59 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

ps.com...





On Aug 16, 10:58 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Aug 16, 8:44 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

groups.com...

On Aug 16, 5:30 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

roups.com...

On Aug 16, 1:14 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
Ok lets review..I know this is hard but focus Jon.

"Sunday, August 12, when the Miss Beach Haven, with
complete disregard for the safety of others, steamed through the
very
narrow channel near Goosebar Sedge, throwing so much water so
closely
to us that you caused an injury to my crew when she fell in the
galley. "

My mistake. In that case, the CG should be notified.

Should be, but not required, because the injury did not need more
than
basic first aid. had it required further medical attention then it
would be required by law.

Wow... I guess that's why I said should.

DUTY:
Perhaps he did not realize what he is doing is illegal, infact
unless
he is in a no wake zone then he is doing nothing illegal, until he
hurts someone or damages someone property. He may be a cluess newbe
Capt who has no ideal what it's like to be hit with a 20 kt 5 ft
wake
in a small saiboat. Someone needs to address the issue with him, and
that is Scout duty as the Captain of the affected craft.

A clueless newbe who's a licensed captain? Sure. Whatever you say.

Sure..How many deckhands do you know running a boat? So if a fellow
get a licences then he is allowed to run a boat..he will be a
newbee...like you.

Like me... someone who knows the rules and uses them every day. It's not
good enough to be unfamiliar with the rules.

Where in the rules does it say you can not throw a wake on anyone?

So, you think it's ok then?

Sure it's OK to throw a wake..but you need to know when it's OK. Some
newbees do not understand when it's OK and when it not OK.

Many new Skippers do not have a clue. They are the ones running junk
like the boat Scout reported.

Lets take you for instance..You have a 50GT with a towing
endorsement. Just how many 50 ton tugboats or crewboats have you
handled? If you landed a job would you know everything needed to be
the Captain of the boat? Would you be a newbee?


Your licences is a licence to learn..not proof you know everything.

Huh? Did you forget about the exams *and* the sea time requirements?

Again, your licences is a licences to learn.

What? No way. You get a license, you're legally responsible. End of story.
If you learn more, that's great, but it has nothing to do with your current
license.

yeah right it has nothing to do with the licences, it has to do with
being a Captain of a boat.

Jon, I trained many many new skippers on 100 ton boats..In the oil
field you would work under another master until he OK'ed it with the
company to turn you loose with a 10 millin dollar + boat. With what
you said above it would be a long long time and several humbeling
events before I would turn you loose with a boat and crew.

Different situation. No one would just hand over a 100 ton boat to a novice,
but the *license* has nothing to say about that. You're qualified, as far as
the CG is concerned.

Indeed.. It's a license to learn. You are still a newbee if you take
on a vessel than uses the total tonnage available. Now if your going
to get a license to just hang on the wall and keep sailing little
boats that you have been on all your life, and never advance..... then
by all means your are qualified and not a newbee.


You remind me of one fellow I called Capt Crunch. We were running in
to SW pass of the Missippi and he grounded my boat on a sand bar..120
footer. Threw me out of the bunk. He came in at a right angle of the
pass ...way of course. I got up, took me about an hour to dig the boat
off the bar and get it back on course...then the ****ball has the
guall to complain that he should have been allowed to dig the boat off
after the MF was standing there shivering not knowing what to do. I
never allowed him to take the wheel except in open water again.. Thank
God... He quit.

Sounds like you made the mistake of handing him the keys. How this reminds
you of me, I have no idea unless he was very, very good looking.

He thought he had all the skills needed. He was new as second Capt.
The reason 100 ton crewboats have two licenced skippers is they are
underway more than 12 hours per day. I had a long trip out, and very
long cold wet offload, the boat has outside stern controls. I told him
to wake me at the sea bouy. he was heading straight for it, and the
sand bars that run for several miles before the rock line jettie.

He got off course by about 6 miles, then when he saw the seabouy he
headed straight for it like a blind fool.


Like you he thought because he had a licences that he knew everything
needed to run a boat.

Never said that. Now you're just making things up.

Let's review Jon...focus now.

" A clueless newbe who's a licensed captain? Sure. Whatever you say."


Joe

Duty, Honor, Safety
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:52:41 -0700, "Capt. JG"
said:

Dave only pays attention when he hears the sound of an ambulance! :-)

Sounds like you know even less about the range of what lawyers do than
Wilbur.

I know all about what lawyers do. They hoodwink people into thinking
they actually ARE worth 500-1000 dollars an hour.

Sad, because I've now been to court three times in as many years and
I've represented myself each and every time. I've been acquitted each
and every time. The last time the poor judge resorted to saying, "OK,
Mr. Hubbard, you did your homework. I'm going to have to acquit." "Have
to?" Did you get that? In other words, the judge as much as admitted
that he didn't want to acquit and had already decided I was guilty
because the cop said so but I was so prepared and presented the law so
convincingly that he had no other choice. So much for the actual worth
of lawyers. Anybody with half a brain can be a successful lawyer. John
Kerry is proof of that.

Wilbur Hubbard

Duty, Honor, Safety
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:03:18 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

I know all about what lawyers do.

Sure ya do, Wilbur. Next time I hear from somebody in FL who has to
file a
Form 10 or Schedule 13D I'll send him to you.

Bwaahahahahahahahhahaha. So you're an income tax lawyer. Say it isn't
so. How can you live with yourself? Don't you ever yearn for a real job

Wilbur Hubbard