Capt. Rob wrote:
I would say that 99% of the boating community would say that VMG to
windward implies beating,


Total nonsense. Windward work is exactly that and does not always imply
beating.

You really don't know anything about sailing, do you? Yes, if you're
on a close reach you're still making way to windward. However, your
VMG to windward will be **** poor, unless your speed increases a huge
amount.

Beating implies beating or "hard on the wind." Windward is ANY
point of sail above a beam reach to use the term 100% correctly. If the
folks in your fartbutt county skewed to have a specific meaning that's
fine. But following both the rules of sailing and English, you're wrong
and I'm right. End of story.

Sorry, it would appear that you still don't understand. Let me try to
explain. I'll try to use small words, but unfortunately it does
require some 8th grade math. "VMG to windward" is the Velocity Made
Good to a point directly upwind. It isn't your speed through the
water or your speed over ground. It represents the average speed you
would have on a beat to a mark directly upwind. A simple way to
calculate it is to take your angle to the true wind, add about 4
degrees for leeway, take the cosine of that, and multiply by the speed
through the water. The result is typically about 70% of boat speed
for a beat, but of course varies a lot with the boat and conditions.

VMG to windward can be determined for any heading, but for a given
condition there will generally be one optimal angle and implied best
speed for going to windward. However, a performance table will list
the VMG for all headings, zero at 90 degrees and negative numbers for
downwind. In all cases, this is the "VMG to windward."

Sorry, Bob, you may think the racers and designers (as well as many
cruisers) who prefer to use boating terminology properly as
"fartbutts" but this is just one more example of you making a real
jackass of yourself.

You really don't know anything about sailing, do you? Yes, if you're
on a close reach you're still making way to windward. However, your
VMG to windward will be **** poor, unless your speed increases a huge
amount.


Holy backpedal, Batman!!!!
Now jeff admits that a close reach is upwind and windward!!!! After
saying the 99% of all sailors only think windward is BEATING!!!!
OOOPs!!!!!

Now he's prattling on about VMG without even knowing the bouy we were
headed for or really any other details.
Good grief. I predict Jeff will blow a head gasket quite soon indeed.


RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
You really don't know anything about sailing, do you? Yes, if you're
on a close reach you're still making way to windward. However, your
VMG to windward will be **** poor, unless your speed increases a huge
amount.


Holy backpedal, Batman!!!!

No backpedal by me, only by you.

Now jeff admits that a close reach is upwind and windward!!!! After
saying the 99% of all sailors only think windward is BEATING!!!!

I never said "windward" was "beating," I said the most sailors think
that measuring VMG to Windward implies beating; certainly that is the
time it is most important. However, it does not mean going at the
precisely optimal angle, only that the best VMG is obtained at that
angle. Since your boat's best VMG to Windward is lower than 6 knots,
your point of sail is not meaningful - whatever it is, your VMG to
Windward was not 6 knots.

OOOPs!!!!!

You should change your pants after that, Bob.


Now he's prattling on about VMG without even knowing the bouy we were
headed for or really any other details.

One doesn't have to know. You specified "VMG to Windward" which only
means one thing.

I never said "windward" was "beating," I said the most sailors think
that measuring VMG to Windward implies beating; certainly that is the
time it is most important.



Holy super duper ultra fantastic BACKPEDAL, Robin!!!!!!


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! What happened, Jeff? Did Doug alert you to what
windward really meant????


RB
35s5
NY

I said the most sailors think
that measuring VMG to Windward implies beating


More nonsense from Jeff. VMG to windward is measured from 1 degree
above a beam reach and higher all the way to the highest point of sail
possible. And THAT'S a fact.
Anyone want a slice of Jeff-Fish? It's a bit fishy, but just throw some
lemon on it!


RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
I said the most sailors think
that measuring VMG to Windward implies beating


More nonsense from Jeff. VMG to windward is measured from 1 degree
above a beam reach and higher all the way to the highest point of sail
possible. And THAT'S a fact.
Anyone want a slice of Jeff-Fish? It's a bit fishy, but just throw some
lemon on it!

Yes, booby, I just said in the previous post that VMS's are listed for
every point of sailing. However, the highest VMG is always beating to
windward. And the highest that your boat has is well under 6 knots.
Thus, your claim of 6 knots is bogus.

However, the highest VMG is always beating to
windward. And the highest that your boat has is well under 6 knots.
Thus, your claim of 6 knots is bogus.


So...you NOW admit that sailing upwind or to windward is not
necessarily beating.
We were not beating as I CLEARLY stated, therefore the VMG of 6 knots
to windward was 100% accurate and certainly possible and you just shot
your own argument in the head and backed over it with your car.
Someone call 911!!! I saw Jeff do it!

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!

Now I'm going to sleep. I'll check in the morning for Jeff's feeble
mule kick.

G'night to ASA.



RB
35s5
NY

Sorry, Bob, you may think the racers and designers


So let's get this straight, Jeff. We're sailing upwind, but certainly
not beating. Our knotmeter is showing over seven knots nudging near 8
at times. We have a mark set on the GPS about a mile off and we're on a
starboard tack (again, for example). Now, the mark is about 10 degrees
off our starboard bow. GPS is reporting our VMG fluctuating between 5.6
and 6.1 knots as we close on the mark. Water is quite flat and the boat
is nicely in the groove, giving up very little. The fellow at the helm
has about 8 times more sailing experience than you. I asked what our
VMG was and he said about 6 knots. He was VERY impressed with the
35s5's windward performance. But he's not the only one. So is about
every review on the boat. She easily beats her polars. A French review
called her "the triumphant 35s5" and noted that they were also climbing
upwind with a VMG of over 5 and 1/2 knots. Heart of Gold's original
name was "Windward First" as her abilities to weather are well
established. Read the owner reviews if you like.
I don't know what to tell you, dude. You're obviously upset. I said we
made 6 knots and 8....hardly crazy numbers. I've seen monohuls do it
before and will again. Making 8 knots at 45 is hardly impossible, so 6
of VMG is also there. The problem is that you simply don't know what
upwind means. You "think" it means only beating and that's just not the
case.
Go take some pills, old man. You need 'em!

BWAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHA!!!

RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
Sorry, Bob, you may think the racers and designers


So let's get this straight, Jeff. We're sailing upwind, but certainly
not beating. Our knotmeter is showing over seven knots nudging near 8
at times. We have a mark set on the GPS about a mile off and we're on a
starboard tack (again, for example). Now, the mark is about 10 degrees
off our starboard bow.

In other words, its not to windward.

GPS is reporting our VMG fluctuating between 5.6
and 6.1 knots as we close on the mark.

Since the mark is not to windward, this is not your "VMG to Windward,"
or as you said in the OP "to windward at just over 6 knots VMG." You
claimed it was VMG to Windward, and now you're claiming its the VMG to
a mark 10 degrees off the bow. You really don't know the difference,
do you?

Water is quite flat and the boat
is nicely in the groove, giving up very little. The fellow at the helm
has about 8 times more sailing experience than you.

You mean he has 400 years of sailing experience??? I'm impressed! But
what does this have to do with your obvious ignorance? Don't blame
him because you didn't understand what was happening.

I asked what our
VMG was and he said about 6 knots.

That may have been the VMG to that mark, but you can't pick an
arbitrary point and then use that for you VMG to Windward. You could
have just as easily picked a point dead ahead and claimed a VMG of 7
to 8 knots, but that isn't the VMG to Windward, now would it?
Remember, your GPS doesn't know where the wind is, so it can't tell
you the VMG to Windward unless you give a mark directly upwind.

He was VERY impressed with the
35s5's windward performance. But he's not the only one. So is about
every review on the boat.

yada yada yada. You're still an idiot. Whenever you've lost an
argument you try to claim you won because someone else is impressed
with your boat. What a jackass!

She easily beats her polars.

Right. Just like she easily beats her PHRF. Unless of course, you're
explaining that the reason she's beat by other boats is the tough PHRF
rating she got.

Yes, sometimes boats beat their polars by a tad. Usually its because
of new hi-tech sails, a smooth bottom, a quality crew, and some luck.
But you're claiming you beat the polars by a huge margin, with old
sails, and you weren't even trying to go upwind.

A French review
called her "the triumphant 35s5" and noted that they were also climbing
upwind with a VMG of over 5 and 1/2 knots.

And this is why you think you can easily to 6 knots with old sails?
Maybe you should be giving lessons to the French.


Heart of Gold's original
name was "Windward First" as her abilities to weather are well
established. Read the owner reviews if you like.
I don't know what to tell you, dude. You're obviously upset.

I'm not upset. You're just stupid.

I said we
made 6 knots and 8....hardly crazy numbers.

But here you just admitted it wasn't upwind, its was just the VMG to a
mark up ahead. You just don't seem to get what "to Windward" really
means.

I've seen monohuls do it
before and will again.

sure, but not yours.

Making 8 knots at 45 is hardly impossible, so 6
of VMG is also there.

Holy Bat****! You mean those French reviewers don't know how to sail
the boat??? You just said they were impressed that they got 5.5! But
you seem to have no problem doing better than that. You weren't even
trying to go upwind. At yet, magically, you outperformed your polars
and the reviewers. With old sails, not less.

And BTW, 8 knots at 45 is only a VMG of 5.6 knots. And that's not
including leeway, which drops it to 5.3.

The problem is that you simply don't know what
upwind means. You "think" it means only beating and that's just not the
case.

Bob, you've just admitted over and over that you don't know what
you're talking about. Why don't you have your friend, if he really
exists, explain it to you? He can go real slow, and include pictures.

"Capt. Rob" wrote:

Sorry, Bob, you may think the racers and designers ???

So let's get this straight, Jeff. We're sailing upwind, but certainly
not beating. Our knotmeter is showing over seven knots nudging near 8
at times. We have a mark set on the GPS about a mile off and we're on a
starboard tack (again, for example). Now, the mark is about 10 degrees
off our starboard bow. GPS is reporting our VMG fluctuating between 5.6
and 6.1 knots as we close on the mark.

Finally you admit that you used the term "VMG to windward" incorrectly,
thank you.


Cheers
Marty