"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

*Performance* encompasses a lot more than just going fast. I'll take
the
Swan any day.

Wow...you really went out on a limb there! Next you'll tell us that
you'd take Pam Anderson over Judy Dench.

You wouldn't???

But Chantiers Beneteau's claim that they are great offshore
passagemakers is more advertising hype than reality.

Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in
any boat.

Probably a good thing for both Thomas AND you.


Now that
you own one, there are few boats that can compare with your 35s5.
Sounds
like owner prejudice, plain and simple, to me.

That IS a VERY valid point. In this case it came down to education
about some of the Beneteau line.

Education, or just buying into the advertising hype?

I don't have a high opinion of the
latest Beneteau boats, especially the Oceanus series. Did you know that
brokers are currently fighting with BeneteauUSA to make fit and finish
improvements because quality has fallen badly?

I'd heard something about that. We inspected a 393 at a boat show last year
and were disappointed in the interior fit and finish. Externally the boat
seemed pretty typically Beneteau.

Go look at a new
one...even a First series. Mark at Doyle loved the way his 36.7 sailed,
but said the interior is crap compared to my boat.

Was your boat built in South Carolina or France? Could that be a factor?

Of course we
observed this ourselves. He himself laughed that he was a Beneteau
basher...and then he sailed a first series boat. The combo of
performance and cruisability for these waters is essentially unmatched
anywhere near the price.
Go ahead...try to match it. Doug couldn't.
That's not to say the 35s5 is ideal for everyone. It's a handful at
times and requires more work to sail than say a Catalina 40 or Island
Packet 35. But that's what we wanted!
All I can add is that we took Windward First out in some pretty heavy
wind and chop and it was simply a blast! Reefed under main alone, she
still sailed like a quick dinghy and aside from the howling wind, it
was very relaxed and composed. This is a great boat for the LIS area.

I happen to like Beneteaus in general. I've never been a Beneteau-basher.
A close friend just bought a 445, which is an ex-charter boat, identical to
the one we sailed in the BVI a couple of years back. While it isn't a real
show-stopper in terms of quality, fit, and finish, it ain't bad. And it is
fast and capacious. It meets his needs very nicely, and he and his wife and
kids will love it, I'm sure.

What I was objecting to in your diatribe was comparing your boat with boats
obviously built to a higher standard and with greater integrity of hull and
rig, designed for conditions that your boat was not. If you were honest
you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a Wauquiez,
Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more. Then again you
didn't have to mortgage the Empire State Building to buy your boat.
Everything is a trade-off in life. Boats are no exception. Beneteau builds
a decent boat for the buck, better than Hunter or Catalina, IMO.

Max

That IS a VERY valid point. In this case it came down to education
about some of the Beneteau line.

Education, or just buying into the advertising hype?

More like owner, reviewer, surveyor hype. Working for a full service
yard means I can get the straight dope on a lot of boats. See below.

but said the interior is crap compared to my boat.
Was your boat built in South Carolina or France? Could that be a
factor?

Ahhh. Either you know something more than you're indicating or it's a
lucky shot. 35s5 interiors were indeed made in overseas and to a much
higher standard. I only wish the 36.7 had the same quality or even the
bigger Firsts.

happen to like Beneteaus in general. I've never been a
Beneteau-basher.

I'm sorry to say that I'm still a Benny basher of sorts. I think the
newer boats have quality control issues and poorly fit interiors.
Design wise they are excellent. It's the execution I'm less than
thrilled with. I won't defend bad boats just because they carry the
same label of MY boat. Beneteau should improve quality to match Hunter,
who has made big improvements, even if you don't like their designs.

If you were honest
you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a
Wauquiez,
Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more.

I don't know enough to to comment on the Wauquiez...have only looked at
one, Sweden quality is variable and the cabin sucks for anyone over 6
feet. J boat is no where near the quality and problem free nature of
the 35s5. J-Boat hulls are a disaster and wet decks are common. Don't
even both citing racing as a cause. J34c's are know for problems and
they are for the same market at the 35s5. But only two 35s5's were
found (by me) to have deck problems and both were in small areas due to
a mast drop and poor aftermarket hardware installation. As you know,
the 35s5 hull is NOT cored. The rig is rod rigging and the chainplates
are FAR superior to J-Boat's system on their boats of the late 80's and
early 90s. Maxprop, I don't think you realize that Beneteau has had
some above average boats score higher than others...among them the 345
and 35s5. A Swan is a true semi custome boat with a level of quality
equalled by few...along with the price. Talking with Surveyors and
yards teaches a person that the differences between a Catalina 350 and
a Tartan 3500 are not a big as Tartan would hope to have you believe.
The 35s5 is well regarded in Europe as an offshore racer/cruiser and
has very few reported problems. The ex charter versions appear to have
stood up well according to owners.
As far as Hunter or Catalina...while it's popular to bash them as well,
they're really not much different from the Tartan either when it comes
to real world quality differences. Any of these boats can generally be
sailed anywhere with some simple modifications and it's done all the
time.

RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message



but said the interior is crap compared to my boat.
Was your boat built in South Carolina or France? Could that be a
factor?


Ahhh. Either you know something more than you're indicating or it's a
lucky shot. 35s5 interiors were indeed made in overseas and to a much
higher standard. I only wish the 36.7 had the same quality or even the
bigger Firsts.

There have been some issues with the US-built Beneteaus. I wasn't aware
that the 35 was built in France, while the 36 was built here. That's why I
asked.


happen to like Beneteaus in general. I've never been a
Beneteau-basher.

I'm sorry to say that I'm still a Benny basher of sorts.

Coulda fooled me.

I think the
newer boats have quality control issues and poorly fit interiors.
Design wise they are excellent. It's the execution I'm less than
thrilled with. I won't defend bad boats just because they carry the
same label of MY boat. Beneteau should improve quality to match Hunter,
who has made big improvements, even if you don't like their designs.

Have to disagree there. Hunters are popular and ubiquitous here. Several
friends have bought them, and ALL have had numerous problems, both with the
engineering and the execution of the designs. To be fair, Hunter has been
reasonable and fair in repairing the problems. Sadly the reasons for the
problems are still present, and additional problems continue to emerge,
making these boats less-than-desirable in my opinion. Friends don't let
friends buy Hunters.

If you were honest
you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a
Wauquiez,
Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more.


I don't know enough to to comment on the Wauquiez...have only looked at
one, Sweden quality is variable and the cabin sucks for anyone over 6
feet. J boat is no where near the quality and problem free nature of
the 35s5. J-Boat hulls are a disaster and wet decks are common. Don't
even both citing racing as a cause. J34c's are know for problems and
they are for the same market at the 35s5. But only two 35s5's were
found (by me) to have deck problems and both were in small areas due to
a mast drop and poor aftermarket hardware installation. As you know,
the 35s5 hull is NOT cored. The rig is rod rigging and the chainplates
are FAR superior to J-Boat's system on their boats of the late 80's and
early 90s. Maxprop, I don't think you realize that Beneteau has had
some above average boats score higher than others...among them the 345
and 35s5. A Swan is a true semi custome boat with a level of quality
equalled by few...along with the price. Talking with Surveyors and
yards teaches a person that the differences between a Catalina 350 and
a Tartan 3500 are not a big as Tartan would hope to have you believe.
The 35s5 is well regarded in Europe as an offshore racer/cruiser and
has very few reported problems. The ex charter versions appear to have
stood up well according to owners.
As far as Hunter or Catalina...while it's popular to bash them as well,
they're really not much different from the Tartan either when it comes
to real world quality differences. Any of these boats can generally be
sailed anywhere with some simple modifications and it's done all the
time.

I'll still take the Swan. Or the Wauquiez, or the J. Most other sailors
would, too, especially if the condition and price were in the same range as
your boat. But I'm guessing that if the condition were equal to your boat,
the price on those others would be quite a bit higher. A good survey should
eliminate buying a wet deck or chainplate issues.

Max

Several
friends have bought them, and ALL have had numerous problems, both with
the
engineering and the execution of the designs. To be fair, Hunter has
been
reasonable and fair in repairing the problems.


We have three new hunters at the yard and I'm not aware of any service
issues. I'm also selling a 1997 Hunter 43 and have access to it's
service history, which shows very little in the way of trouble. What
type of problems have you seen?

I'll still take the Swan. Or the Wauquiez, or the J. Most other
sailors
would, too, especially if the condition and price were in the same
range as
your boat.

I'd take the Swan, but not the Wauquez or J. We could have had either,
but the designs were not comparable to the 35s5. In the case of the
Wauquez we looked at one in CT in very good shape. Bunks were too
short, head was tiny, no swim platform. Teak decks may be nearing the
end of their life cycle on boats so fitted. Look at the prices on
Yachtworld...pretty much the same as the 35s5. The J 34C was in the
running for a while. We really liked sailing it, just as much as the
35s5 in fact. But the fit and finish below was inferior. No aft cabin,
no swim platform and another head designed for short people. J-boat
does seem to understand that people over 6 feet also need to sleep. We
could have bought the beautiful 34C, but the cabin was not even as well
done as our C&C 32.
The features we wanted are important to us as we'd tried them on other
boats and could see their practicality. Because of the failings of the
Wauqiez and Jboat, they can't compete with the 35s5 from a design
standpoint. I'd take the Swan I suppose, but are you so certain that
lofty build quality would still make a boat the right fit for everyone?

RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

We have three new hunters at the yard and I'm not aware of any service
issues.

Well duh. Doncha think service issues tend to show up after a boat has been
in its owner's hands for a while?

I'm also selling a 1997 Hunter 43 and have access to it's
service history, which shows very little in the way of trouble. What
type of problems have you seen?

Hunter 410--keel pulling loose from the hull, despite tightening the keel
bolts. (Hunter's fix: "slap some flexible caulk in there.") Numerous
electrical problems. Hunter 320--this boat has hatches (the sort that
typically are found on a relatively level deck) attached to near-vertical
house sides, and they've cracked and leaked, even after being replaced
twice. Electrical problems. Poor design of the various cubby holes in the
cockpit, the weep-hole drains of which don't seem to drain the water that
accumulates in them. Older Hunters--softening of the *pine* mast step,
which is encased in glass and sits on a reinforced hull member, but doesn't
stay water-tights and eventually softens and allows the base of the mast to
sag into the wood. This has been a problem with older Catalinas as well.
And wet decks are almost ubiquitous on older Hunters and Catalina, and even
on some newer ones. Also, those numerous fixed deck windows on older
Hunters generally leak after about 7 years in the sun and rain. One 37.5
Hunter we inspected in a driving rain literally had a waterfall cascading
down the face of the power panel. Nice. The hull liner was almost
completely black with mildew.


I'd take the Swan, but not the Wauquez or J. We could have had either,
but the designs were not comparable to the 35s5. In the case of the
Wauquez we looked at one in CT in very good shape. Bunks were too
short, head was tiny, no swim platform.

A swim platform is a necessity for a sailboat to be worthwhile?

Teak decks may be nearing the
end of their life cycle on boats so fitted.

Or, if maintained properly, they might be just fine. Best non-skid
available.

Look at the prices on
Yachtworld...

Hmmm. I thought you were criticizing me for reading yachtworld.com. Now
you are suggesting I do so. Which is it?

pretty much the same as the 35s5. The J 34C was in the
running for a while. We really liked sailing it, just as much as the
35s5 in fact. But the fit and finish below was inferior. No aft cabin,
no swim platform and another head designed for short people. J-boat
does seem to understand that people over 6 feet also need to sleep. We
could have bought the beautiful 34C, but the cabin was not even as well
done as our C&C 32.
The features we wanted are important to us as we'd tried them on other
boats and could see their practicality. Because of the failings of the
Wauqiez and Jboat, they can't compete with the 35s5 from a design
standpoint. I'd take the Swan I suppose, but are you so certain that
lofty build quality would still make a boat the right fit for everyone?

I don't know about everyone, but it would for me.

Max

"Capt. Rob" wrote
..... Because of the failings of the
Wauqiez and Jboat, they can't compete with the 35s5 from a design
standpoint.

???

That's probably true if you're a moron.

... I'd take the Swan I suppose, but are you so certain that
lofty build quality would still make a boat the right fit for everyone?


It's not "just" build quality (whatever you take that to be). Swans are
always among the prettiest, most comfortable, and fastest boats in
production.

Maxprop wrote:
I don't know about everyone, but it would for me.


How about one of the new NYYC 42s? Sweet boat, except for the name of
course.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Wauqiez and Jboat, they can't compete with the 35s5 from a design
standpoint.

That's probably true if you're a moron.


Yeah, one of those Mooron's who's 6'3 and wonders why anyone would make
a bunk 6'4 or even 6'6. When my wife saw the Wauqiez sleeping quarters
she laughed. Funny how even premium builders now match many of the
appointments and features of the 35s5...15 years later.
Doug, you sure know boats!

RB
35s5
NY

Swans are
always among the prettiest, most comfortable, and fastest boats in
production.

Doug is such a complete idiot. Comfortable for who? Doing what? You
mean a Swan is more comfortable than a big PDQ? Holy crap.

RB
35s5
NY

"DSK" wrote in message

How about one of the new NYYC 42s? Sweet boat, except for the name of
course.

To be honest I haven't stayed up on new boats at all. I'll do a search and
take a look at it, however.

Max

Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in
any boat.


Probably a good thing for both Thomas AND you.


For the Boobster, walking down the dock constitutes a 'hazardous
voyage.' And he'll post pictures to prove it!


Maxprop wrote:
What I was objecting to in your diatribe was comparing your boat with boats
obviously built to a higher standard and with greater integrity of hull and
rig, designed for conditions that your boat was not. If you were honest
you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a Wauquiez,
Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more.

There are lots of great boats out there. Then there's a fair amount of
not-so-great, and a small percentage of crap. Very often the perception
of the boat is based on publicity & advertising rather than any
realistic consideration of the boat itself.

... Then again you
didn't have to mortgage the Empire State Building to buy your boat.
Everything is a trade-off in life. Boats are no exception. Beneteau builds
a decent boat for the buck, better than Hunter or Catalina, IMO.


They generally cost more, too.

The bottom line- Bubbles claims he bought a boat, paying more than 5X
what Scotty paid... and his boat is only slightly bigger, *maybe*
slightly faster (if Bubbles takes sailing lessons)... will be used less,
and that closer to it's home slip.

WTF has he got to brag about?

DSK