"Jeff" wrote in message

Finally admitted??? I finally admitted that cats don't point well??? And
that's thats the best you've got?

Bubbles has an uncanny knack for the obvious.

Max

"Gary" wrote in message

The fact that every record in ocean racing is being set by multihulls
kinda pokes holes in everything you say. It doesn't matter how high you
can point if you go twice as fast 10 degrees lower. Where I race, in
light airs or big winds the first boat home is always a multihull.

I raced a Snipe with a sailing club that for years had Snipe, MC-Scow, and
Hobie 16 fleets. The general rule was that if the air was very light to
dead calm, the cats would be started behind the monos. If the wind was 5
kts. or better, the cats were started first. I recall races in which the
cats were started behind the other two fleets, only to have the wind freshen
subsequently. The Hobies would then blast through the other two fleets and
be back on their trailers before we made it back to the club dock.

Max

Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think this
is a discussion worth having.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have
said the higher pointing boat has the advantage.

Only if the skipper has the knowledge and experience to utilize that
advantage. The art of pointing involves a lot more than simply sailing as
closely to the wind as possible.

VMG across the widest
possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of
sailing performance in fact.

VMG has more to do with the skipper than the boat. Paul Elvstrom proved
that for decades, sailing inferior boats against superior ones with
inferior skippers, and beating them easily.

Wish I'd written that!

What a lofty goal, to be able to coin a phrase suggesting something
blatantly obvious.

For a boat to be
considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be
fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the
wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the
conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered
a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind.

It is conceivable that some Geminis are owned and sailed by incompetent
people.

Upwind it was
a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that
tacking is tedious!
Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats
like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing
enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens

Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of
yachts. Reminds me of a guy who used to boast that his Cosworth Vega was
in the same league as a Ferrari 248GTSi.

and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of
the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind.

And your 35s5, compared with similarly-sized cruising boats, is cramped,
lightly constructed, uncomfortable in a seaway, and must be reefed early
and often, not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising
boats at resale time. Everything's relative, Bubbles.

Max

enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens

Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list
of
yachts.


I've sailed the Sweden 39, J34c, J30 and J35. I have NOT sailed a Swan
yet. The cost of the swan not withstanding, the 35s5 is in the same
league for performance. In fact it was a hell of a lot nicer than the
nice J34c. The Sweden had better components, but tiny bunks...amazingly
small. A useless boat even for weekending if you're over 6 feet tall.
The J35 was fast and fun...if only it had a nicer cabin. The 35s5 was
simply one of the few boats that sailed like a raceboat while
maintaining a good interior for occasional cruising. Saying it's not
ideal for a 1000 mile voyage is rather silly since we didn't buy it for
that. It's also a poor boat to fly over the Grand Canyon as well.
I had a talk with Mark P. of Doyle sails this morning when I brought a
sail in for an insurance estimate. He owned a 36.7 for a while and is a
fan of the 35s5. We laughed at how we were once Beneteau bashers. He
said, "Yeah, that was me until I sailed a 35s5 and then a 36.7." As
luck would have it he built the sails on my boat and raced with her
owned many years ago aboard a S33.
Max, if you think the First 35s5 is lightly built, you should talk to
some surveyors who've worked the boat. It's built with many weight
saving featires, yet it's structural integrity is a match for most any
production cruiser. Rather than just denying this off the cuff I
suggest you look into it. Your impression on "lightly built" was also
mine. Then I learned a bit about the 345, 32s5 and 35s5 and why they
were standouts among the First series boats.

RB
35s5
NY

not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising boats at
resale time.


How so? We could have had a nice J34c for 8K more and she was worth it
with a huge sail inventory. We looked at a Sweden 36 asking 66K, the
Pretoreon (sp) for 60K, J35 for 55K....the First 35s5 was in the same
price class. The baby Swan is more expensive by a mile, but the last
few years have seen 35s5 prices actually go up along with the late
model C&Cs and J boat cruising models.

RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think
this is a discussion worth having.

The fine art of pointing encompasses more than just having a boat that sails
closely to the wind. When racing, the weather course made good will depend
upon a number of factors. An adroit skipper can sail a higher CMG with a
boat that doesn't sail as closely to the wind than a poorer skipper will
with a boat that theoretically points higher. Keeping the boat on its feet
(upright) is one factor. Another is maintaining sufficient speed to be able
to periodically feather into the wind without slowing appreciably. This is
where skill really shines. Sailing a high CMG often requires footing off
periodically, especially in light air, to maintain boat speed to allow
feathering and to prevent leeward slippage. Puffs can enable a boat to
point higher as well, provided boat speed is maintained. Inexperienced
skippers tend to pinch when following faster boats--the perception is that
those boats are "pointing" higher than he, so he pinches in attempt to equal
their pointing ability, effectively slowing himself down and losing ground
to leeward. The direction in which the boat is aimed often has little to do
with how well the boat is "pointing."

There's more to it, but that's a good start.

Max

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens

Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list
of
yachts.


I've sailed the Sweden 39, J34c, J30 and J35. I have NOT sailed a Swan
yet. The cost of the swan not withstanding, the 35s5 is in the same
league for performance.

*Performance* encompasses a lot more than just going fast. I'll take the
Swan any day. It will be heavier, but do far better than your Bendy Toy
over the broad range of conditions. You seem to be under the mistaken
impression that flat water and 15kts. is the standard by which "performance"
is judged.

In fact it was a hell of a lot nicer than the
nice J34c. The Sweden had better components, but tiny bunks...amazingly
small. A useless boat even for weekending if you're over 6 feet tall.
The J35 was fast and fun...if only it had a nicer cabin. The 35s5 was
simply one of the few boats that sailed like a raceboat while
maintaining a good interior for occasional cruising. Saying it's not
ideal for a 1000 mile voyage is rather silly since we didn't buy it for
that. It's also a poor boat to fly over the Grand Canyon as well.
I had a talk with Mark P. of Doyle sails this morning when I brought a
sail in for an insurance estimate. He owned a 36.7 for a while and is a
fan of the 35s5. We laughed at how we were once Beneteau bashers. He
said, "Yeah, that was me until I sailed a 35s5 and then a 36.7." As
luck would have it he built the sails on my boat and raced with her
owned many years ago aboard a S33.
Max, if you think the First 35s5 is lightly built, you should talk to
some surveyors who've worked the boat. It's built with many weight
saving featires, yet it's structural integrity is a match for most any
production cruiser.

You've been reading the Beneteau brochures, haven't ya. And believing them.

Rather than just denying this off the cuff I
suggest you look into it. Your impression on "lightly built" was also
mine. Then I learned a bit about the 345, 32s5 and 35s5 and why they
were standouts among the First series boats.

I've spent more time on Beneteaus than you, Bubbles. But that's not
necessarily significant--I state it only to explain that I'm far from
ignorant w/r/t Beneteaus. A good friend used to sell them in Chicago. So I
got the *Beneteau story*, and the *true story*. Fact is, they are really
very good boats--better, I think, than Hunters and Catalinas in most
respects. But Chantiers Beneteau's claim that they are great offshore
passagemakers is more advertising hype than reality. Sure, they bond their
bulkheads 360 degrees to the hull *liner* and deck *liner*, but that's not
quite the same as bonding them to the hull and deck. Beneteau's hull liners
have been known to separate from the hull, requiring extensive repair costs
often without effecting a valid repair. AND their bulkheads, fairly lightly
constructed, have been known to buckle and fail when pushed to extremes that
would probably not damage a stout cruiser, such as a Hallberg Rassey or a
Cabo Rico, for example.

However I think the most significant thing you've stated is that you used to
bash Beneteaus. I recall that very well--you were without mercy. Now that
you own one, there are few boats that can compare with your 35s5. Sounds
like owner prejudice, plain and simple, to me.

Max

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising boats at
resale time.


How so? We could have had a nice J34c for 8K more and she was worth it
with a huge sail inventory. We looked at a Sweden 36 asking 66K, the
Pretoreon (sp) for 60K, J35 for 55K....the First 35s5 was in the same
price class.

A Sweden 36 or a Wauquiez Pretorian or a J35 or J34C for anywhere near what
you paid for your Bendy would have to be beat-up junk or showing their age
with minimal or outdated equipment. None of those boats could have come
close to the condition of yours in that price range. You can't lie about
this, Bubbles. I read yachtworld.com, too, and I know what those boats sell
for in the same condition as yours. Fact is, that Pretorian, for example,
won't depreciate at all at this point, rather it will appreciate if
maintained well and kept up to par with upgrades. Beneteaus will depreciate
long after high quality boats have bottomed out and are beginning to rise.

The baby Swan is more expensive by a mile, but the last
few years have seen 35s5 prices actually go up along with the late
model C&Cs and J boat cruising models.

LOL.

Max

A Sweden 36 or a Wauquiez Pretorian or a J35 or J34C for anywhere near
what
you paid for your Bendy would have to be beat-up junk or showing their
age
with minimal or outdated equipment.

You know nothing about boat brokerage. I looked at and sailed the J
34C. It was in very nice shape, probably about as nice as the 35s5. The
Pretorian was older and the only thing wrong with it was the sails.
These boats often sell for many thousands of dollars less than asking.
Half of the 35s5's on Yachtworld are priced just below 70K. 3 recent
buyers I spoke to paid in the low to mid 60's for thiers. One person
paid 71K for a near perfect example like mine, but he had enough sail
inventory to make it worth it. 5 years ago 35s5's were selling in the
mid 50's typically. Now they're higher. Do you know why? Do you know
why the C&C 34+ shot up to near 100K after selling in the low 60s for
years? The market responds to NEW boat costs as well as design trends.
A C&C 34+ or 35s5 are examples of used designs that come close to
matching new boat qualities and performance. That drives their prices
up. As several people noted on the Beneteau lists, the latest First
series boats even drove up the price of the older First 345.
Don't even bother answering, Maxipad. You look at Yachtworld, while I
actually sell boats....just closed a deal on a Freedom 35 a few weeks
ago in fact and just took this beast in:
http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/page4.html
But a deal to sell a Carver 450 fell through...perfect for you!

RB
35s5
NY

*Performance* encompasses a lot more than just going fast. I'll take
the
Swan any day.

Wow...you really went out on a limb there! Next you'll tell us that
you'd take Pam Anderson over Judy Dench.

But Chantiers Beneteau's claim that they are great offshore
passagemakers is more advertising hype than reality.

Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in
any boat.

Now that
you own one, there are few boats that can compare with your 35s5.
Sounds
like owner prejudice, plain and simple, to me.

That IS a VERY valid point. In this case it came down to education
about some of the Beneteau line. I don't have a high opinion of the
latest Beneteau boats, especially the Oceanus series. Did you know that
brokers are currently fighting with BeneteauUSA to make fit and finish
improvements because quality has fallen badly? Go look at a new
one...even a First series. Mark at Doyle loved the way his 36.7 sailed,
but said the interior is crap compared to my boat. Of course we
observed this ourselves. He himself laughed that he was a Beneteau
basher...and then he sailed a first series boat. The combo of
performance and cruisability for these waters is essentially unmatched
anywhere near the price.
Go ahead...try to match it. Doug couldn't.
That's not to say the 35s5 is ideal for everyone. It's a handful at
times and requires more work to sail than say a Catalina 40 or Island
Packet 35. But that's what we wanted!
All I can add is that we took Windward First out in some pretty heavy
wind and chop and it was simply a blast! Reefed under main alone, she
still sailed like a quick dinghy and aside from the howling wind, it
was very relaxed and composed. This is a great boat for the LIS area.

RB
35s5
NY