Capt. Rob wrote:
Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing
enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family
cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. But the
tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, and that included
healing and the most important thing of all....Upwind ability where a
multi faulters 10 degrees or more away from a boat like mine. On a long
reach Jeff's boat is faster, but in any real race on various tacks, the
PDQ couldn't even STAY ON the course.

So...in Jeff's OWN WORDS, ladies and gentlemen...

"It won't point too high (45-50 degrees true) but it will
go upwind side by side with any cruising boat. Foot off 5 to 10
degrees, and it takes off like a bandit. Tacking is tedious, it
certainly isn't good for short tacking out a channel. Light air is
another sore point, because the large wetted surface starts to
dominate. However, in 10 knots and over will do about half the wind
speed. It continues to hold this ratio up to 12 to 15 knots of boat
speed, depending on how long you hold off on reefing."

And so...with winds below 10 knots MANY times in MANY areas, the PDQ
gets an engine workout. With limited upwind performance the engines get
another workout. 45-50 degrees is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I bet newer multis
manage better. On the LIS these boats have to be motored much of the
time and these are otherwise classic sailing grounds hosting some great
sailing events. We see few Multi's sailing and for good reason...sooner
or later you need to sail upwind better than 50 degrees!

RB
35s5...the best performing boat here!
NY

The fact that every record in ocean racing is being set by multihulls
kinda pokes holes in everything you say. It doesn't matter how high you
can point if you go twice as fast 10 degrees lower. Where I race, in
light airs or big winds the first boat home is always a multihull.

Gaz

Capt. Rob wrote:
There's more to racing than going upwind, and more to even that than
simply
pointing the highest. If you think otherwise, then you have no clue
about
racing.


Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have
said the higher pointing boat has the advantage. VMG across the widest
possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of
sailing performance in fact. Wish I'd written that! For a boat to be
considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be
fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the
wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the
conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered
a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind. Upwind it was
a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that
tacking is tedious!
Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats
like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing
enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens
and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of
the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind.

RB
35s5
NY

You are comparing apples and oranges. Try the same comparison using
your 35s5 and a Ferrier (any size). The PDQ is in a different league.
Compare it with the Nordica.

Gaz

Capt. Rob wrote:
Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T!


Then how come so many folks can afford a Multi and don't have one?

So many can afford??? The single biggest problem with cats is that
they're expensive. While there are lot of small cruising boats for
$20K, its hard to find a good cat used for under $80K. And since the
smaller ones don't work that well, the entry for a true long distance
cruiser is well over $100K.

Where's your multi? Where's mine? Where's Loco's? How come Doug says
he's looking at a C&C and not a multi? Where's Bart's multi? Ganz seems
to want one. Not me.

So how many have said your boat would be their first choice?

Someone has to speak up for the group during hard times.

Hard times? Is that what you call it when you buy a boat?

Do you want a
boat that is "tedious to tack?" Do you want a boat that "won't point
higher than 45-50 degrees"?

Hopefully you did, because that's what you bought! If you wanted to
point higher without pinching, you would have got the deep keel!

I am the frozen one, Skywalker!

RB
35s5...the top performing boat in my slip!
NY

Sure, it must be better because it points higher.

Of course, he can't use the head while underway! This could explain why
he claims that past Execution Rock (3 miles from his slip) is "deep into
the Sound"! Going any further would be horrific!




NotPony wrote:
Hey, Jeff. Suppose you agree to go to the LIS to
meet bs (since there's no chance he'd ever go to
meet you), and you accept his race challenge.
It's blowing about 10k. He's beating to windward
@ 36° making 4.7k - decent performance. But, you,
with your loaded-for-cruising slug that can't
point, foot off to about 50°, but in doing so are
holding 6.5k. Yeah, you're faster, but you're not
pointing.
Then, down wind, he's sailing 170° making about
4.5k and you reach off to about 150° and are
making just over 6k. Again, you're faster, but
he's sailing closer to the mark.
Can't you just accept the fact that his boat is
better because he can point higher?
S.

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...

: That thing tacks like a bufallo for one. Second,
he's not thrashing
: anyone unless he has conditions and wind to do
it. The better pointing
: boat is the better performing boat. So it has
been and always shall be.
: Tacks on the upwind even in reasonably fair
conditions off a 10 degree
: deficit? Do you know how that would effect his
VMG versus a high
: pointing monohull? And what of the more common
light air?
: PDQ 36 is a cruiser with a very fast off the
wind ability, but a
: performance boat it aint.
:
:
: RB
: 35s5...a real performance boat
: NY
:

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing
enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family
cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform.

Well, yes.

But the
tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, and that included
healing

I believe this would only apply to boats owned by doctors and faith healers.

and the most important thing of all....Upwind ability where a
multi faulters 10 degrees or more away from a boat like mine.

So? He'll foot so much faster than your boat beats to weather that he'll
make up the difference in distance traveled from mark to mark with speed.
You *might* beat him to the weather mark, but on the reaching legs he'll
leave you so far behind his wake won't even be visible. When rounding the
leeward mark he'll be ahead of you by such a large margin you'll never catch
him on the subsequent windward leg.

On a long
reach Jeff's boat is faster,

Ya think?

but in any real race on various tacks, the
PDQ couldn't even STAY ON the course.

It won't only stay on course, it'll already be tied up back at the yacht
club while you're struggling to finish.

Your 35s5 is a decent boat, Bubbles. You should accept that and quit
attempting to denigrate everyone else's boat in order to make yours look
superior. It is probably superior to some, and inferior to others. Are you
unable to live with that?

Max

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

That thing tacks like a bufallo for one.

Cats don't come about in quite the same way as monohulls. You must steer
them around in an arc while maintaining speed. Throwing the helm over just
applies the brakes. So in a sense, a cat will maintain speed better than a
monohull that crosses the wind like a buffalo (the correct spelling--perhaps
you should use "ta tonka" instead--easier to spell) wallowing in the mud.

Second, he's not thrashing
anyone unless he has conditions and wind to do it.

This is true of just about any boat in existence. No boat does well in all
conditions. For example, Mooron's boat would give yours a thrashing in
20kts. or better.

The better pointing
boat is the better performing boat.

This depends strictly upon the usage or task at hand. In around-the-buoys
racing the higher the ability to point the better. In extended cruising it
may be meaningless.

So it has been and always shall be.

Are you having delusions of godhood again, Bubbles?

Tacks on the upwind even in reasonably fair conditions off a 10 degree
deficit? Do you know how that would effect his VMG versus a high
pointing monohull?

I'd suggest you take the time to read Ted Well's book "Scientific Sailboat
Racing" and learn something about the art of pointing. You obviously are
clueless.

And what of the more common light air?
PDQ 36 is a cruiser with a very fast off the wind ability, but a
performance boat it aint.

Compared with a J120, your boat, too, is a slug. Everything's relative,
Bubbles.

Max

"Capt. Scumbalino" wrote in message

If you think otherwise, then you have no clue about
racing.

You could have omitted the words "If you think otherwise, then".

Max

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have
said the higher pointing boat has the advantage.

Only if the skipper has the knowledge and experience to utilize that
advantage. The art of pointing involves a lot more than simply sailing as
closely to the wind as possible.

VMG across the widest
possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of
sailing performance in fact.

VMG has more to do with the skipper than the boat. Paul Elvstrom proved
that for decades, sailing inferior boats against superior ones with inferior
skippers, and beating them easily.

Wish I'd written that!

What a lofty goal, to be able to coin a phrase suggesting something
blatantly obvious.

For a boat to be
considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be
fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the
wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the
conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered
a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind.

It is conceivable that some Geminis are owned and sailed by incompetent
people.

Upwind it was
a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that
tacking is tedious!
Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats
like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing
enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens

Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of
yachts. Reminds me of a guy who used to boast that his Cosworth Vega was in
the same league as a Ferrari 248GTSi.

and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of
the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind.

And your 35s5, compared with similarly-sized cruising boats, is cramped,
lightly constructed, uncomfortable in a seaway, and must be reefed early and
often, not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising boats at
resale time. Everything's relative, Bubbles.

Max

"Gary" wrote in message

You are comparing apples and oranges. Try the same comparison using your
35s5 and a Ferrier (any size). The PDQ is in a different league. Compare
it with the Nordica.

He only compares his boat with those of ASA posters, Gary. He apparently
doesn't have enough confidence in the intrinsic attributes of his boat to
feel secure. Rather he must denigrate other's boats in order to feel that
his is worthwhile. It's not unlike ugly women who ridicule beautiful
females in order to feel less ugly.

Max

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message


Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T!

Then how come so many folks can afford a Multi and don't have one?

1. limited availability of slips beamy enough to accommodate cats
2. no experience with cats, therefore they buy what they know
3. very few cats available in some regions of the planet
4. many of the good cats are made in France :-)
5. many of the cats available in the USA are ex-charter boats, and rather
well, um . . . *used*
6. good quality cats generally cost about 20-50% more than equivalent-sized
monohulls
7. cats, being a rarity in some areas, are perceived as difficult to resell

need more?

Max