Sure, it must be better because it points higher.

Of course, he can't use the head while underway! This could explain why
he claims that past Execution Rock (3 miles from his slip) is "deep into
the Sound"! Going any further would be horrific!




NotPony wrote:
Hey, Jeff. Suppose you agree to go to the LIS to
meet bs (since there's no chance he'd ever go to
meet you), and you accept his race challenge.
It's blowing about 10k. He's beating to windward
@ 36° making 4.7k - decent performance. But, you,
with your loaded-for-cruising slug that can't
point, foot off to about 50°, but in doing so are
holding 6.5k. Yeah, you're faster, but you're not
pointing.
Then, down wind, he's sailing 170° making about
4.5k and you reach off to about 150° and are
making just over 6k. Again, you're faster, but
he's sailing closer to the mark.
Can't you just accept the fact that his boat is
better because he can point higher?
S.

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...

: That thing tacks like a bufallo for one. Second,
he's not thrashing
: anyone unless he has conditions and wind to do
it. The better pointing
: boat is the better performing boat. So it has
been and always shall be.
: Tacks on the upwind even in reasonably fair
conditions off a 10 degree
: deficit? Do you know how that would effect his
VMG versus a high
: pointing monohull? And what of the more common
light air?
: PDQ 36 is a cruiser with a very fast off the
wind ability, but a
: performance boat it aint.
:
:
: RB
: 35s5...a real performance boat
: NY
:

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

That thing tacks like a bufallo for one.

Cats don't come about in quite the same way as monohulls. You must steer
them around in an arc while maintaining speed. Throwing the helm over just
applies the brakes. So in a sense, a cat will maintain speed better than a
monohull that crosses the wind like a buffalo (the correct spelling--perhaps
you should use "ta tonka" instead--easier to spell) wallowing in the mud.

Second, he's not thrashing
anyone unless he has conditions and wind to do it.

This is true of just about any boat in existence. No boat does well in all
conditions. For example, Mooron's boat would give yours a thrashing in
20kts. or better.

The better pointing
boat is the better performing boat.

This depends strictly upon the usage or task at hand. In around-the-buoys
racing the higher the ability to point the better. In extended cruising it
may be meaningless.

So it has been and always shall be.

Are you having delusions of godhood again, Bubbles?

Tacks on the upwind even in reasonably fair conditions off a 10 degree
deficit? Do you know how that would effect his VMG versus a high
pointing monohull?

I'd suggest you take the time to read Ted Well's book "Scientific Sailboat
Racing" and learn something about the art of pointing. You obviously are
clueless.

And what of the more common light air?
PDQ 36 is a cruiser with a very fast off the wind ability, but a
performance boat it aint.

Compared with a J120, your boat, too, is a slug. Everything's relative,
Bubbles.

Max

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing
enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a
family
cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. But the
tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer,

Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T!

Scotty

Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T!


Then how come so many folks can afford a Multi and don't have one?
Where's your multi? Where's mine? Where's Loco's? How come Doug says
he's looking at a C&C and not a multi? Where's Bart's multi? Ganz seems
to want one. Not me.
Someone has to speak up for the group during hard times. Do you want a
boat that is "tedious to tack?" Do you want a boat that "won't point
higher than 45-50 degrees"?
I am the chosen one, Skywalker!

RB
35s5...the top performing boat here!
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T!


Then how come so many folks can afford a Multi and don't have one?

So many can afford??? The single biggest problem with cats is that
they're expensive. While there are lot of small cruising boats for
$20K, its hard to find a good cat used for under $80K. And since the
smaller ones don't work that well, the entry for a true long distance
cruiser is well over $100K.

Where's your multi? Where's mine? Where's Loco's? How come Doug says
he's looking at a C&C and not a multi? Where's Bart's multi? Ganz seems
to want one. Not me.

So how many have said your boat would be their first choice?

Someone has to speak up for the group during hard times.

Hard times? Is that what you call it when you buy a boat?

Do you want a
boat that is "tedious to tack?" Do you want a boat that "won't point
higher than 45-50 degrees"?

Hopefully you did, because that's what you bought! If you wanted to
point higher without pinching, you would have got the deep keel!

I am the frozen one, Skywalker!

RB
35s5...the top performing boat in my slip!
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message


Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T!

Then how come so many folks can afford a Multi and don't have one?

1. limited availability of slips beamy enough to accommodate cats
2. no experience with cats, therefore they buy what they know
3. very few cats available in some regions of the planet
4. many of the good cats are made in France :-)
5. many of the cats available in the USA are ex-charter boats, and rather
well, um . . . *used*
6. good quality cats generally cost about 20-50% more than equivalent-sized
monohulls
7. cats, being a rarity in some areas, are perceived as difficult to resell

need more?

Max

Capt. Rob wrote:
Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing
enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family
cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. But the
tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, and that included
healing and the most important thing of all....Upwind ability where a
multi faulters 10 degrees or more away from a boat like mine. On a long
reach Jeff's boat is faster, but in any real race on various tacks, the
PDQ couldn't even STAY ON the course.

Finally admitted??? I finally admitted that cats don't point well???
And that's thats the best you've got?

Booby, have you ever heard of VMG? Pointing ability is only one
component of going upwind, speed is another. We don't have the polars
for either of our boats, but we can make some guesses. Here's the
polar for a Beneteau First 407, designed by Farr, and a much better
upwind performer than yours:
http://www.1stsailing.com/Boats/BoaI...hnicalData.jpg

Speed at 45 degrees true tops out at a bit over 7 knots. Multiplying
by the cosine of 45 degrees (0.707), we get a VMG (Velocity Made Good)
of about 5. The Benny can point a tad higher, but if it loses even
half a knot the VMG drops. The actual optimum point may be 40-42
degrees but there is actually very little difference between that and
45, except on the race course where pointing can be a tactical
advantage. So how does this compare to a 35s5? The 407 has PHRF of
57 compared to around 130 for the smaller version, so that's over a
minute a mile or at perhaps 10% on VMG. So the upper limit of VMG for
the 35s5 might be 4.5 knots.

Now, how about a cat? If we foot off all the way to 60 degrees true,
VMG will be half of boat speed, so we have to do 9 knots, which the
PDQ will do in 18 knots. Of course the comment of 60 degrees is
fairly approximate, if the optimum is actually at 55 degrees, then the
cat only has to do a bit over 8 knots to beat the monohull.

Its pretty clear that in a breeze, the cat can keep up with, or even
beat a Benny upwind. In lighter air the cat's speed will drop off
faster, so upwind the cat will fall behind.

But this is only part of the story. We haven't factored in leeway.
The Benny may point at 45 degrees, but what's its actually course?
Heeled on its ear, its making at least 3 degrees of leeway,
considerably more if its puffy. At 3 degrees the hit to VMG is 5%, at
5 degrees the hit is over 10%. In fact, on a puffy day, it takes
considerable skill and attention to get the most of the Benny. The
cat, on the other hand, will be going flat and fast at 60 degree true,
with minimal work. A number of times we've blown past a mono stalled
out in a puff, heeled over, making maybe 15 degrees leeway, sometime
worse.

So what's the true break even point? It would depend a lot on the
conditions. In protected fla****er and steady wind, it might be 16
knots, add a chop and puffs and it might be 12 knots of wind. With a
full crew in a race the benny might do better; shorthanded the cat is
easier to keep moving. On a small race course, a mono certainly has a
tactical advantage, but remember that the small version of my cat
races at a PHRF equivalent of about 104.

This is before we take into account Bob's primary claim, that most
people prefer a boat the heels and goes upwind as fast as possible,
especially in light air. Frankly, I don't care what "most" people
prefer, I only care what suits my needs. Certainly, if your sailing
is limited to a few hours of daysailing, its understandable that you
want to get the most "sailing" out of it. In fact, I sail at a local
club where I can take out a racing dink, or more likely a Rhodes 19,
so I can do some daysailing and get the real "experience."

But my purpose in having a larger boat is to go cruising, which
usually means traveling 100 miles or more to interesting destinations.
I have no desire so spend a whole day heeled over 40 degrees, or
making 2 knots VMG upwind in light air. In fact, I never heard a
cruiser say they want to heel more, and there are rather few that will
"take what comes" and wander around in a drifter. Go ask at any
cruising anchorage and you'll that 90% of the would prefer to sail
flatter, and most would fire up the engine when the VMG goes below
half of their normal "good" speed.


So...in Jeff's OWN WORDS, ladies and gentlemen...


I know what I said, and stand by it. Does Bob know what he's talking
about? Doubtful.


And so...with winds below 10 knots MANY times in MANY areas, the PDQ
gets an engine workout.

So would many other boats. Do you have a point? Cruising boats often
don't do well in light air??? What a revelation!!


With limited upwind performance the engines get
another workout. 45-50 degrees is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Then you better get rid of your Bendy, because it doesn't do
significantly better than 45 degrees. You really don't know anything
about sailing, do you, Bob?

I bet newer multis manage better.

Sure, lots have daggerboards. In fact, you could buy my boat with
daggerboards. I didn't have that option at the time, but it isn't
something I would want to sacrifice convenience and interior space
for. Raising the VMG from 2 to 3 knots doesn't mean much - I've
freely admitted I probably be powering at 8 knots in that case. And
so would most other cruisers.

On the LIS these boats have to be motored much of the
time and these are otherwise classic sailing grounds hosting some great
sailing events. We see few Multi's sailing and for good reason...sooner
or later you need to sail upwind better than 50 degrees!

Gee, do you think maybe that's why I said this boat is an appropriate
choice for you? I'll say it again: A Beneteau 35s5 is possibly the
best boat for someone who only sails 5 miles from his slip in light
air. Are you happy now?



RB
35s5...the best performing boat on LIS, but not anyplace a real sailor would want to be!
NY

"Jeff" wrote in message

Finally admitted??? I finally admitted that cats don't point well??? And
that's thats the best you've got?

Bubbles has an uncanny knack for the obvious.

Max

Capt. Rob wrote:
Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing
enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family
cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. But the
tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, and that included
healing and the most important thing of all....Upwind ability where a
multi faulters 10 degrees or more away from a boat like mine. On a long
reach Jeff's boat is faster, but in any real race on various tacks, the
PDQ couldn't even STAY ON the course.

So...in Jeff's OWN WORDS, ladies and gentlemen...

"It won't point too high (45-50 degrees true) but it will
go upwind side by side with any cruising boat. Foot off 5 to 10
degrees, and it takes off like a bandit. Tacking is tedious, it
certainly isn't good for short tacking out a channel. Light air is
another sore point, because the large wetted surface starts to
dominate. However, in 10 knots and over will do about half the wind
speed. It continues to hold this ratio up to 12 to 15 knots of boat
speed, depending on how long you hold off on reefing."

And so...with winds below 10 knots MANY times in MANY areas, the PDQ
gets an engine workout. With limited upwind performance the engines get
another workout. 45-50 degrees is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I bet newer multis
manage better. On the LIS these boats have to be motored much of the
time and these are otherwise classic sailing grounds hosting some great
sailing events. We see few Multi's sailing and for good reason...sooner
or later you need to sail upwind better than 50 degrees!

RB
35s5...the best performing boat here!
NY

The fact that every record in ocean racing is being set by multihulls
kinda pokes holes in everything you say. It doesn't matter how high you
can point if you go twice as fast 10 degrees lower. Where I race, in
light airs or big winds the first boat home is always a multihull.

Gaz

"Gary" wrote in message

The fact that every record in ocean racing is being set by multihulls
kinda pokes holes in everything you say. It doesn't matter how high you
can point if you go twice as fast 10 degrees lower. Where I race, in
light airs or big winds the first boat home is always a multihull.

I raced a Snipe with a sailing club that for years had Snipe, MC-Scow, and
Hobie 16 fleets. The general rule was that if the air was very light to
dead calm, the cats would be started behind the monos. If the wind was 5
kts. or better, the cats were started first. I recall races in which the
cats were started behind the other two fleets, only to have the wind freshen
subsequently. The Hobies would then blast through the other two fleets and
be back on their trailers before we made it back to the club dock.

Max