"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
This is one of the problems with a lot of chain: it makes it impossible
to feel when the anchor grabs.

I disagree..... I can definitely feel a solid hook up with chain. Matter of
fact I can see the chain become taut when the set is placed. If motoring I
back down for 30 seconds at 1800rpm.... otherwise I drop on the downwind and
pay enough to keep the rode straight.... then come about hard to whichever
side the anchor is on and allow the momentum to back me down for the set. I
get an 80% success rate and the failures are readily seen, felt and
corrected by another attempt.

I really don't know how you guys have such a hard time with CQRs... It's a
great general purpose anchor. I might have dragged 4 times in the last 20
years... none critical.

I've seen many a vessel with supposedly experienced crew unable to place a
solid hook. I find it particularly prevalent within the Club Racers....
excellent racing and sailing skillsets but no clue about how to secure their
vessels to anchor. I've had Overproof set to my standard anchor for 3 weeks
through 2 gales without dragging. This was a set in 30 feet of water with my
stainless CQR, 100 ft chain and another 50 ft of 3/4" 3 strand. The bottom
is a mix of rounded cobble and gravel containing a plethora of scallops. A
dive on the hook prior to weighing anchor showed the plow buried to halfway
up the shank and a gentle spiral of chain indicating a positive hold in
veering wind.

Newbies have a hard time because the do not understand fully what is
required and lack experience...... the rest simply lack experience and
expect failure. Being able to securely anchor your vessel is a very
important skillset to have. I believe that Capt. Neal has an excellent set
up and knows what it requires to secure to anchor.... whereas Jon
illustrates he does not fully comprehend the actual anchoring skills
required to safely secure his vessel.

CM

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
JG wrote:
You know, I just can't remember at this point. It would set briefly, then
on a short watch, it would drag. So, we'd let out more scope and it would
set again briefly. We repeated this until we either ran out of room to
let out more scope or it was obvious that no matter how much we let out,
it wouldn't make any difference.

Adding scope, assuming you had a proper amount to start, hardly ever
helps. Its certainly no help if the bottom is too soft for the anchor.
The one thing it does is give the anchor some time to dig in by itself.

Hmmm... well, it's been my experience that sometimes a bit more chain on the
bottom works, especially if there's a surg on. I guess it would give it time
to dig in. This was a charter boat, so you got all chain rode and
fortunately a windlass.

I've use the Danforth in a weed/sand area with a good amount of success.
If I could actually get it in a patch of sand encircled by weeds/grass,
it would generally hold. Aim was important... there's the sand, NOW! g


That's why I use a fishfinder rather than a depthsounder.

Fishfinders are great... I have one on my Cal 20. It was less expensive than
a regular digital depthsounder. I'm not sure it would help with seeing the
bottom that much... as it's the cheapest they make. I don't using need
anything other than depth knowledge in the bay, and I don't need a sounder
to tell me, because I know the area well.

When I first started sailing in situations that required anchoring for
lunch or sleep, I remember being quite nervous about doing it and tended
to put the engine in hard reverse to try and really, really, set the
hook, but I soon figured out that was not helping at all.

Who cares if you're staying one the boat for a lunch break? The Fortress
is nice as a lunch hook because you can set it by hand and feel when it
grabs. This is one of the problems with a lot of chain: it makes it
impossible to feel when the anchor grabs.

This is certainly true, although you can tell. The rope rode tends to
vibrate; whereas, the chain rode chatters. When we were off Green Cay
recently, I showed this effect to one of the crew.

In the bay, we drop the hook and just let the boat drift back on its own.
Job done. Occasionally, its necessary to give a light hand to reverse,
but this is typically when there's no wind to push the boat back.

That's about all I do for overnight setting, though we'll test by revving
up, otherwise I wouldn't be able to sleep. We used to go crazy trying to
back the Nonsuch, which can't back in a straight line. We learned that
plow anchors set themselves best if you give them some time.

I'm going to be getting some practice backing in the next couple of days.
The Yamaha 30 we have needs to get put away in a different spot, and it's
near impossible to turn it around after it gets to its side-tie. I've done
it before, and it should be good practice.


The most difficult place I found was Cooper's Island, BVI, which is
mostly grass. The first time I was there, it took three shots at it
before it stuck. The second time, it stuck the first time, but we dragged
a bit later that night. Since then, I either didn't have any trouble
(checking with a dive on it) or elected to take a mooring.

Whereas Mooron is just a fool, and I'm coming to the conclusion that he
rarely actually does any sailing.

In any case, I was talking to Jeff, not a creep like you.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:qjoWd.15006$fc4.5222@edtnps89...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
This is one of the problems with a lot of chain: it makes it impossible
to feel when the anchor grabs.

I disagree..... I can definitely feel a solid hook up with chain. Matter
of fact I can see the chain become taut when the set is placed. If
motoring I back down for 30 seconds at 1800rpm.... otherwise I drop on the
downwind and pay enough to keep the rode straight.... then come about
hard to whichever side the anchor is on and allow the momentum to back me
down for the set. I get an 80% success rate and the failures are readily
seen, felt and corrected by another attempt.

I really don't know how you guys have such a hard time with CQRs... It's
a great general purpose anchor. I might have dragged 4 times in the last
20 years... none critical.

I've seen many a vessel with supposedly experienced crew unable to place a
solid hook. I find it particularly prevalent within the Club Racers....
excellent racing and sailing skillsets but no clue about how to secure
their vessels to anchor. I've had Overproof set to my standard anchor for
3 weeks through 2 gales without dragging. This was a set in 30 feet of
water with my stainless CQR, 100 ft chain and another 50 ft of 3/4" 3
strand. The bottom is a mix of rounded cobble and gravel containing a
plethora of scallops. A dive on the hook prior to weighing anchor showed
the plow buried to halfway up the shank and a gentle spiral of chain
indicating a positive hold in veering wind.

Newbies have a hard time because the do not understand fully what is
required and lack experience...... the rest simply lack experience and
expect failure. Being able to securely anchor your vessel is a very
important skillset to have. I believe that Capt. Neal has an excellent set
up and knows what it requires to secure to anchor.... whereas Jon
illustrates he does not fully comprehend the actual anchoring skills
required to safely secure his vessel.

CM

"JG" wrote in message

Fishfinders are great... I have one on my Cal 20. It was less expensive
than a regular digital depthsounder. I'm not sure it would help with
seeing the bottom that much... as it's the cheapest they make. I don't
using need anything other than depth knowledge in the bay, and I don't
need a sounder to tell me, because I know the area well.

Yet you can't get a 40lb CQR to hold???.... Bwahahahahahahahahaaa


This is certainly true, although you can tell. The rope rode tends to
vibrate; whereas, the chain rode chatters. When we were off Green Cay
recently, I showed this effect to one of the crew.

Chain rattle at anchor off Green Cay... Bwahahahahahahahahahaaa


I'm going to be getting some practice backing in the next couple of days.
The Yamaha 30 we have needs to get put away in a different spot, and it's
near impossible to turn it around after it gets to its side-tie. I've done
it before, and it should be good practice.

Bwahahahahahahaaaaaa..... Oh you need the "practise" all right!

CM

JG wrote:

Adding scope, assuming you had a proper amount to start, hardly ever
helps. Its certainly no help if the bottom is too soft for the anchor.
The one thing it does is give the anchor some time to dig in by itself.


Hmmm... well, it's been my experience that sometimes a bit more chain on the
bottom works, especially if there's a surg on. I guess it would give it time
to dig in. This was a charter boat, so you got all chain rode and
fortunately a windlass.

As I say, if you had enough, maybe 4:1, to start, and it drags, more
won't help. On the other hand, I often try to to set on minimal
scope, maybe 3:1, and then lay out more after fully assessing the
situation.

Of course, sleeping on 10:1 scope is a bit easier than on 3:1!



Fishfinders are great... I have one on my Cal 20. It was less expensive than
a regular digital depthsounder. I'm not sure it would help with seeing the
bottom that much... as it's the cheapest they make. I don't using need
anything other than depth knowledge in the bay, and I don't need a sounder
to tell me, because I know the area well.

Our FF is not that expensive, but it has a fair "white line" bottom
read. Its handiest in checking out new anchorages, and especially in
Maine where a sandy area can easily have a large ledge in the middle.



Who cares if you're staying one the boat for a lunch break? The Fortress
is nice as a lunch hook because you can set it by hand and feel when it
grabs. This is one of the problems with a lot of chain: it makes it
impossible to feel when the anchor grabs.


This is certainly true, although you can tell. The rope rode tends to
vibrate; whereas, the chain rode chatters. When we were off Green Cay
recently, I showed this effect to one of the crew.

Yes, sometimes you can tell from that - and sometimes I'll put a
finger on the line while my wife is backing, hoping to feel the
vibration or snag. But you don't get that through a 100 feet of chain
to a soft bottom.

Capt. Mooron wrote:
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

This is one of the problems with a lot of chain: it makes it impossible
to feel when the anchor grabs.


I disagree..... I can definitely feel a solid hook up with chain. Matter of
fact I can see the chain become taut when the set is placed. If motoring I
back down for 30 seconds at 1800rpm.... otherwise I drop on the downwind and
pay enough to keep the rode straight.... then come about hard to whichever
side the anchor is on and allow the momentum to back me down for the set. I
get an 80% success rate and the failures are readily seen, felt and
corrected by another attempt.

Backing at 1800 for 30 seconds? You ought to be able to tell with a
range if you're holding.

I've seen people do the "downwind toss" - it looks slick when it
works. But more often than not I'm trying to place the boat within 10
feet of a spot. I usually don't have the luxury of an open anchorage.



I really don't know how you guys have such a hard time with CQRs... It's a
great general purpose anchor. I might have dragged 4 times in the last 20
years... none critical.

As I say, I like to end up in a predictable spot - the CQR felt like a
crap shoot. As for dragging, in the 12 years I've used a Delta I've
never dragged after setting. In fact, I never dragged with a CQR, I
just had trouble setting it and didn't like the weight. Dragging 4
times doesn't sound that great to me.

OK, there was one time with the Delta: we anchored for the afternoon
and noticed a slow drag immediately. Since we were planning to lunch
in the cockpit and relax for a hour or so, and had about 1000 yards to
the lee shore, we let it be and enjoyed the changing perspective. We
found out later we had anchored in soft spoil from the Boston Big Dig
and nothing was going to hold.

...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message

Backing at 1800 for 30 seconds? You ought to be able to tell with a range
if you're holding.

Well a range is a given..... I'm making certain the hook is set and holding.
I'll often fire up and back down on a set before turning in just to make
certain my tackle is holding solid.


I've seen people do the "downwind toss" - it looks slick when it works.
But more often than not I'm trying to place the boat within 10 feet of a
spot. I usually don't have the luxury of an open anchorage.

I can't understand that... I can do it in a mooring field and have. A ten
foot spot is the target but you still have a swing radius to contend with
after the set. If you are on a downwind approach you should allow sufficent
swing radius room for other vessels anchored in that area. The depth of the
anchorage as well as the bottom conditions are important in deciding where
and how to set... but I'm assuming anyone with experience has already taken
these into consideration.



As I say, I like to end up in a predictable spot - the CQR felt like a
crap shoot. As for dragging, in the 12 years I've used a Delta I've never
dragged after setting. In fact, I never dragged with a CQR, I just had
trouble setting it and didn't like the weight. Dragging 4 times doesn't
sound that great to me.

Say what.... dragging 4 times out of maybe a thousand sets isn't bad at all
Jeff. I find it hard to believe that you never dragged.... that's just
unrealistic.


OK, there was one time with the Delta: we anchored for the afternoon and
noticed a slow drag immediately. Since we were planning to lunch in the
cockpit and relax for a hour or so, and had about 1000 yards to the lee
shore, we let it be and enjoyed the changing perspective. We found out
later we had anchored in soft spoil from the Boston Big Dig and nothing
was going to hold.

Ah Hah! ... look Jeff, no matter how good you are at setting hook... you
will eventually drag on occasion until you have a system set up that
minimizes or neutralizes that possibility.

CM

Pretty funny... that's how you demonstrate your "superior" skills??? Backing
for 30 seconds... bwahahahaaaa You're worse than any I've seen here.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:aZpWd.3151$i6.1962@edtnps90...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message

Backing at 1800 for 30 seconds? You ought to be able to tell with a
range if you're holding.

Well a range is a given..... I'm making certain the hook is set and
holding. I'll often fire up and back down on a set before turning in just
to make certain my tackle is holding solid.


I've seen people do the "downwind toss" - it looks slick when it works.
But more often than not I'm trying to place the boat within 10 feet of a
spot. I usually don't have the luxury of an open anchorage.

I can't understand that... I can do it in a mooring field and have. A ten
foot spot is the target but you still have a swing radius to contend with
after the set. If you are on a downwind approach you should allow
sufficent swing radius room for other vessels anchored in that area. The
depth of the anchorage as well as the bottom conditions are important in
deciding where and how to set... but I'm assuming anyone with experience
has already taken these into consideration.



As I say, I like to end up in a predictable spot - the CQR felt like a
crap shoot. As for dragging, in the 12 years I've used a Delta I've
never dragged after setting. In fact, I never dragged with a CQR, I just
had trouble setting it and didn't like the weight. Dragging 4 times
doesn't sound that great to me.

Say what.... dragging 4 times out of maybe a thousand sets isn't bad at
all Jeff. I find it hard to believe that you never dragged.... that's
just unrealistic.


OK, there was one time with the Delta: we anchored for the afternoon and
noticed a slow drag immediately. Since we were planning to lunch in the
cockpit and relax for a hour or so, and had about 1000 yards to the lee
shore, we let it be and enjoyed the changing perspective. We found out
later we had anchored in soft spoil from the Boston Big Dig and nothing
was going to hold.

Ah Hah! ... look Jeff, no matter how good you are at setting hook... you
will eventually drag on occasion until you have a system set up that
minimizes or neutralizes that possibility.

CM

Are you on drugs? Where did I say I have or use a CQR?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:RIoWd.15312$fc4.10673@edtnps89...

"JG" wrote in message

Fishfinders are great... I have one on my Cal 20. It was less expensive
than a regular digital depthsounder. I'm not sure it would help with
seeing the bottom that much... as it's the cheapest they make. I don't
using need anything other than depth knowledge in the bay, and I don't
need a sounder to tell me, because I know the area well.

Yet you can't get a 40lb CQR to hold???.... Bwahahahahahahahahaaa


This is certainly true, although you can tell. The rope rode tends to
vibrate; whereas, the chain rode chatters. When we were off Green Cay
recently, I showed this effect to one of the crew.

Chain rattle at anchor off Green Cay... Bwahahahahahahahahahaaa


I'm going to be getting some practice backing in the next couple of days.
The Yamaha 30 we have needs to get put away in a different spot, and it's
near impossible to turn it around after it gets to its side-tie. I've
done it before, and it should be good practice.

Bwahahahahahahaaaaaa..... Oh you need the "practise" all right!

CM

I don't think 4:1 is enough for decent scope... minimally 5 and up to 7 is
more typical. 4 is ok for lunch, even 3, but if it's overnight, longer is
better. Since there's rarely room for 10, I've never done it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
JG wrote:

Adding scope, assuming you had a proper amount to start, hardly ever
helps. Its certainly no help if the bottom is too soft for the anchor.
The one thing it does is give the anchor some time to dig in by itself.


Hmmm... well, it's been my experience that sometimes a bit more chain on
the bottom works, especially if there's a surg on. I guess it would give
it time to dig in. This was a charter boat, so you got all chain rode and
fortunately a windlass.

As I say, if you had enough, maybe 4:1, to start, and it drags, more won't
help. On the other hand, I often try to to set on minimal scope, maybe
3:1, and then lay out more after fully assessing the situation.

Of course, sleeping on 10:1 scope is a bit easier than on 3:1!



Fishfinders are great... I have one on my Cal 20. It was less expensive
than a regular digital depthsounder. I'm not sure it would help with
seeing the bottom that much... as it's the cheapest they make. I don't
using need anything other than depth knowledge in the bay, and I don't
need a sounder to tell me, because I know the area well.

Our FF is not that expensive, but it has a fair "white line" bottom read.
Its handiest in checking out new anchorages, and especially in Maine where
a sandy area can easily have a large ledge in the middle.



Who cares if you're staying one the boat for a lunch break? The Fortress
is nice as a lunch hook because you can set it by hand and feel when it
grabs. This is one of the problems with a lot of chain: it makes it
impossible to feel when the anchor grabs.


This is certainly true, although you can tell. The rope rode tends to
vibrate; whereas, the chain rode chatters. When we were off Green Cay
recently, I showed this effect to one of the crew.

Yes, sometimes you can tell from that - and sometimes I'll put a finger on
the line while my wife is backing, hoping to feel the vibration or snag.
But you don't get that through a 100 feet of chain to a soft bottom.