DSK wrote:
"Jeff Morris" wrote

This is certainly contrary to the universal experience of cruisers.
Of course, pound for pound the CQR is particular inefficient,
especially at the smaller sizes. Perhaps you should get a modern
version of the plow.



We're thinking about either a spade or a bruce.


The Spade certainly has received a number of converts lately. I've
been very happy with Delta anchors, though if I were commissioning now
I might pick the Spade. While the Bruce sets quickly, its holding
power is rather limited.


Capt. Mooron wrote:

The CQR is my favourite anchor. If you set properly with correct chain
and rode... there is no reason to doubt the plow design as being
effective.


OK, how do you set it properly? We've been using a CQR anchor for two
years with less than stellar results... it's never dragged but it is
often slow to set and appears to not like a wider range of bottoms than
I'd have thought. If I can find a good enough deal on a replacement,
we're taking it off.

Prompt setting is a problem with the CQR. I got rid of mine partly
for the reason. The balance on it is such that it can land upside and
drag for 100 feet or more before it flips over. One solution is to
let is sit for 10 minutes or so before backing down. With the Delta I
wait for about 30 seconds to a minute so the point will start to dig
in, but it always lands point first because of the extra weight in the
tip.

In in very thick mud, the thick shank of the CQR can inhibit digging
in - that's part of the reason they went with a thinner shank on the
Delta, and also a reason not to use very heavy chain.

Another reason to go with a Delta or Spade is simply the weight
efficiency. Unless you have an electric windlass (or a cattle prod to
enforce discipline) the extra weight becomes a negative incentive to
resetting if the first set does not work out as desired. I've never
dragged a well-set anchor, but I have regretted my location a number
of times.


We have a 35# Danforth also but it's stowed in the lazarette and is a
PITA to get out & deploy.

One virtue of the Danforth-style is quick setting in many bottoms,
making it handy in emergency situations. I keep a Fortress with
modest chain on deck as secondary. It helps to have two bows!




.... My 26lb stainless plow with 100 ft of chain is my main anchor.
The chain is fastened by swivel shackle to 300 ft of 3/4" rode.
My second anchor is also a plow, galvanized, with the same set up. I
also have a 50lb steel fluke and a 60lb fisherman's anchor with 30 ft
lengths of chain for each and a spool of 1/2" braid I can use as rode.



1/2" braid anchor rode for a 30-footer?!?! And you should get longer
chains for your backups. Take 25' off the chain on your CQR and put it
on the fluke & fisherman.

That's a bit thin - I use 9/16 NE Rope 3-strand for all my rodes. The
3/4 inch, on the other hand, is overkill, since it won't stretch
enough to reduce shock loading. My previous boat (a Nonsuch 30 which
is somewhat bigger than the Nordica) came with 100' of chain and a
thick rode - I was much happier when I downsized everything and
replaced the CQR with a Delta.



We have 40' of 3/8" HT chain on each anchor. I'd rather have more but we
often anchor in 5' and that puts the chain right at the sampson post.

I use 50' of 5/16 - enough to reach the windlass gypsy in the deepest
water I normally anchor in. It does mean I've had 15:1 scope a few
times, but what of that?


I'd like to have a fisherman anchor, probably need one about 75#, as a
backup but they are horrible to stow.

The Luke can be broken down to fit in a bilge, but its expensive. A
lot of people are going to a large Fortress as a storm anchor, since
it can be broken down. The holding power of a FX-85 is immense.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message

Prompt setting is a problem with the CQR. I got rid of mine partly for
the reason. The balance on it is such that it can land upside and drag
for 100 feet or more before it flips over. One solution is to let is sit
for 10 minutes or so before backing down. With the Delta I wait for about
30 seconds to a minute so the point will start to dig in, but it always
lands point first because of the extra weight in the tip.

I've never experienced that with either of my CQR anchors. I found the set
was generally either a postive bite or a no-set.... and this is immediatly
noticable.
I do not like danforths unless I'm setting in sand.

That's a bit thin - I use 9/16 NE Rope 3-strand for all my rodes. The 3/4
inch, on the other hand, is overkill, since it won't stretch enough to
reduce shock loading. My previous boat (a Nonsuch 30 which is somewhat
bigger than the Nordica) came with 100' of chain and a thick rode - I was
much happier when I downsized everything and replaced the CQR with a
Delta.

My rational is that the 1/2" is for alternate use. I do not find the 3/4" a
hinderance at all... shock loading is handled by the chain and snubbers if
required. I don't believe the Nonsuch 30 is a bigger vessel than mine at
all. In actual use it pays to utilize what works... and the system I now use
works.

CM

Capt. Mooron wrote:
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message


Prompt setting is a problem with the CQR. I got rid of mine partly for
the reason. The balance on it is such that it can land upside and drag
for 100 feet or more before it flips over. One solution is to let is sit
for 10 minutes or so before backing down. With the Delta I wait for about
30 seconds to a minute so the point will start to dig in, but it always
lands point first because of the extra weight in the tip.


I've never experienced that with either of my CQR anchors. I found the set
was generally either a postive bite or a no-set.... and this is immediatly
noticable.

It could be the bottoms you're hanging on to.


I do not like danforths unless I'm setting in sand.

They bite instantly in sand, but they're even better in soft mud where
plow anchors often do the "slow drag." (I'm guessing you don't have
much soft mud where you are.) On other bottoms they can release and
not reset.




That's a bit thin - I use 9/16 NE Rope 3-strand for all my rodes. The 3/4
inch, on the other hand, is overkill, since it won't stretch enough to
reduce shock loading. My previous boat (a Nonsuch 30 which is somewhat
bigger than the Nordica) came with 100' of chain and a thick rode - I was
much happier when I downsized everything and replaced the CQR with a
Delta.


My rational is that the 1/2" is for alternate use. I do not find the 3/4" a
hinderance at all... shock loading is handled by the chain and snubbers if
required.

Its a myth that chain gives shock absorbing in heavy whether. The
absorbing value starts at the maximum, and reduces to zero as the
condition worsens. If you use all chain or very heavy line, you need
a snubber.


I don't believe the Nonsuch 30 is a bigger vessel than mine at
all.

Not a lot bigger, but somewhat bigger. And its a fin keel boat, not a
'crusher. In many ways, the Nonsuch is a 36 footer in drag.

LOA Nordica 30 29.49
Nonsuch 30 30.33
LWL Nordica 30 25
Nonsuch 30 28.75
Beam Nordica 30 9.77
Nonsuch 30 11.83
Displacement Nordica 30 10220
Nonsuch 30 11500
Sail Area Nordica 30 502
Nonsuch 30 540
Capsize Ratio Nordica 30 1.8
Nonsuch 30 2.1
Hull Speed Nordica 30 6.7
Nonsuch 30 7.18

In actual use it pays to utilize what works... and the system I now use
works.

On that I would agree with you. There are two different approaches to
anchoring: the "weight is great" approach, and the "light weight
hi-tech" approach. Both are self consistent and the choice is a
personal one. I went with the light weight approach because it
offered me the best chance of ending up in a spot I was comfortable
with. With the heavier gear I was prone to saying "I don't like it
here, but I'll be damned if I'm going to haul that thing again!" And
of course with the catamaran, I wanted to keep weight down, especially
at the bow.

In the SF bay, Danforths work fine. When I was in Belize, we had a primary
plow on 43' catamaran, which didn't hold no matter what we tried, but the
relatively tiny Danforth worked like a charm. I imagine that there is
something to be said for being familiar with what you have, along with
choosing the appropriate anchor.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Capt. Mooron wrote:
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message


Prompt setting is a problem with the CQR. I got rid of mine partly for
the reason. The balance on it is such that it can land upside and drag
for 100 feet or more before it flips over. One solution is to let is sit
for 10 minutes or so before backing down. With the Delta I wait for
about 30 seconds to a minute so the point will start to dig in, but it
always lands point first because of the extra weight in the tip.


I've never experienced that with either of my CQR anchors. I found the
set was generally either a postive bite or a no-set.... and this is
immediatly noticable.

It could be the bottoms you're hanging on to.


I do not like danforths unless I'm setting in sand.

They bite instantly in sand, but they're even better in soft mud where
plow anchors often do the "slow drag." (I'm guessing you don't have much
soft mud where you are.) On other bottoms they can release and not
reset.




That's a bit thin - I use 9/16 NE Rope 3-strand for all my rodes. The
3/4 inch, on the other hand, is overkill, since it won't stretch enough
to reduce shock loading. My previous boat (a Nonsuch 30 which is
somewhat bigger than the Nordica) came with 100' of chain and a thick
rode - I was much happier when I downsized everything and replaced the
CQR with a Delta.


My rational is that the 1/2" is for alternate use. I do not find the 3/4"
a hinderance at all... shock loading is handled by the chain and
snubbers if required.

Its a myth that chain gives shock absorbing in heavy whether. The
absorbing value starts at the maximum, and reduces to zero as the
condition worsens. If you use all chain or very heavy line, you need a
snubber.


I don't believe the Nonsuch 30 is a bigger vessel than mine at all.

Not a lot bigger, but somewhat bigger. And its a fin keel boat, not a
'crusher. In many ways, the Nonsuch is a 36 footer in drag.

LOA Nordica 30 29.49
Nonsuch 30 30.33
LWL Nordica 30 25
Nonsuch 30 28.75
Beam Nordica 30 9.77
Nonsuch 30 11.83
Displacement Nordica 30 10220
Nonsuch 30 11500
Sail Area Nordica 30 502
Nonsuch 30 540
Capsize Ratio Nordica 30 1.8
Nonsuch 30 2.1
Hull Speed Nordica 30 6.7
Nonsuch 30 7.18

In actual use it pays to utilize what works... and the system I now use
works.

On that I would agree with you. There are two different approaches to
anchoring: the "weight is great" approach, and the "light weight hi-tech"
approach. Both are self consistent and the choice is a personal one. I
went with the light weight approach because it offered me the best chance
of ending up in a spot I was comfortable with. With the heavier gear I
was prone to saying "I don't like it here, but I'll be damned if I'm going
to haul that thing again!" And of course with the catamaran, I wanted to
keep weight down, especially at the bow.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message

It could be the bottoms you're hanging on to.

No... I doubt that is the issue since the span of time includes 9 years in
a lake situation having everything fromm loon****, weed beds and round
cobble. The current 4 years in Nova Scotia has seen a wide variety of sea
floor types.... including sand, kelp beds and rock..


They bite instantly in sand, but they're even better in soft mud where
plow anchors often do the "slow drag." (I'm guessing you don't have much
soft mud where you are.) On other bottoms they can release and not
reset.

In sand and soft mud they work well... although I have found a tendency to
bury exceedingly deep in soft mud with the danforth I used.

Its a myth that chain gives shock absorbing in heavy whether. The
absorbing value starts at the maximum, and reduces to zero as the
condition worsens. If you use all chain or very heavy line, you need a
snubber.

How high a wave exposure do you anchor in that would require a storm set? I
found the chain seems to keep the anchor aligned and slows the binding on a
pivot. I have dove to inspect my anchor sets on many occasions to see for
myself what was happening on the set. I especially took time to dive if I
sufferred a drag.

On another note.... I found that in a blow while at anchor.... my storm set
consists of a very heavy 20 foot chain from the CQR to another 30 ft
lighter chain followed by a 100 ft of 3/4" rode which is fastened to my
100ft chain.... seems to plant the boat nicely with minimal stress to the
vessel. I do insist on a wide swing radius in foul weather.

Not a lot bigger, but somewhat bigger. And its a fin keel boat, not a
'crusher. In many ways, the Nonsuch is a 36 footer in drag.

LOA Nordica 30 29.49
Nonsuch 30 30.33
LWL Nordica 30 25
Nonsuch 30 28.75
Beam Nordica 30 9.77
Nonsuch 30 11.83
Displacement Nordica 30 10220
Nonsuch 30 11500
Sail Area Nordica 30 502
Nonsuch 30 540
Capsize Ratio Nordica 30 1.8
Nonsuch 30 2.1
Hull Speed Nordica 30 6.7
Nonsuch 30 7.18

Yes I can see it does seem a bit larger... but then again the Nordica
carrries her beam well aft and forward of amidships..... still the Nonsuch
is a thousand pounds heavier.

On that I would agree with you. There are two different approaches to
anchoring: the "weight is great" approach, and the "light weight hi-tech"
approach. Both are self consistent and the choice is a personal one. I
went with the light weight approach because it offered me the best chance
of ending up in a spot I was comfortable with. With the heavier gear I
was prone to saying "I don't like it here, but I'll be damned if I'm going
to haul that thing again!" And of course with the catamaran, I wanted to
keep weight down, especially at the bow.

I can agree with that... but since the method I use has proven effective for
me in a wide variety of conditions time over time... I'm loathe to alter the
set-up based on someone else's experience on a different vessel. I am open
to experimentation and will no doubt make use of any opportunity to try
alternate methods.

Ground tackle and the art of the proper set is not something that comes
natural... it requires practice and experience to consistently hook up
solid. I have my methods and gear.. it works in my situation.

CM

"Jeff Morris" yammered impotently:

It would be nice if you actually had a Herreshoff Anchor, but that
looks like a cheap imitation. On a true Herreshoff, the broad palms
extend further towards the crown.

Wrong again. Mr. Mush For Brains.

It is a genuine Herreschoff anchor manufactured by Wilcox. It has
the Wilcox Crittenden casting stamp on the inner side of the flukes.

And if you going to drop names like Herreshoff in order to sound
intelligent, the least you could do is spell it correctly.

The correct way to spell Herreschoff is the way I spell it and not
the way you imagined it was spelled.

This is certainly contrary to the universal experience of cruisers.
Of course, pound for pound the CQR is particular inefficient,
especially at the smaller sizes. Perhaps you should get a modern
version of the plow.

Cruisers where? I anchor a lot in hard sand and, in hard sand, the
CQR plow does not have a sharp enough point to penetrate the
sand in a lot of cases. It would rather just skitter along on its side.

The plow is also a rotten anchor in soft mud and grass of which
there is a lot of in Florida Bay and the Bahamas. The best all-around
anchor for setting the first time and staying set is the Danforth
Hi-Tensile. The best anchor in rocks and coral is the fisherman.

The plow comes in a distant third as far as all-around utility goes.
I can never sleep soundly when laying to a plow, especially if there
is a wind or current shift. The plow is notorious for just merrily
sliding along the bottom plowing a little trench. The only way it
can be trusted is to dive on it and manually shove it in, back and
forth, about three or four times to get it started on it's way home.

I have probably anchored a hundred times more than anyone who
posts here in this group of wannabes and I have the experience
to tell you the plow is an inferior anchor for tropical sailing .
Don't even mention the Delta anchor which is but an inferior
imitation of an inferior anchor. The only worse anchor than
a Delta is one of those Aluminum fortresses that would rather
fly like a kite in any kind of current than go to the bottom.

Bottom line, with the three anchors on my bow and the two spare
Danforth Hi-Tensile anchors stowed away in the cockpit lockers,
my vessel will hold come Tsunami, Hurricane, Hell or High Water
while all the other vessels in an anchorage relying on their one
anchor as suggested by otnmbrd go on their merry way, pounding
themselves to an ignominious death upon the nearest shore.

Heed my words of wisdom . . .

Capt. Neal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Crap'n Neal® wrote:
The correct way to spell Herreschoff is the way I spell it and not
the way you imagined it was spelled.

Really? Better tell these folks... they've been getting it wrong for years.

http://www.herreshoff.org/

You're welcome.

Doug King

Doug, please. Neal just has to be right. He can't be wrong no matter what!
You shouldn't point stuff out like this. We wouldn't want him to have a
mental breakdown... I mean worse than he's already experiencing.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Crap'n Neal® wrote:
The correct way to spell Herreschoff is the way I spell it and not
the way you imagined it was spelled.

Really? Better tell these folks... they've been getting it wrong for
years.

http://www.herreshoff.org/

You're welcome.

Doug King

Douggies,

You are too stupid to know that the Herreschoff who invented the anchor
is not the same Herreshoff who was a naval architect. But, what else
can be expected from a trawler operator?

CN


"DSK" blathered:

Really? Better tell these folks... they've been getting it wrong for years.
http://www.herreshoff.org/

"DSK" wrote in message ...
Crap'n Neal® wrote:
The correct way to spell Herreschoff is the way I spell it and not
the way you imagined it was spelled.

Really? Better tell these folks... they've been getting it wrong for years.

http://www.herreshoff.org/

You're welcome.

Doug King


Really?

Maybe you'd better Google.

Here! I Googled for you, you PUTZ!

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...eschoff+anchor

CN