I hope no one minds a question from a lurker who drops by from time to
time.

The subject of experiencing a knockdown was recently raised and I'd
like to further extend the subject by asking what can/should one do
when knocked down?

I was recently on a 21 footer with my son-in-law at the till cruising
along fairly well with 25-30 knot winds when he noticed we were
heading into an area of additional wind. While alerting me, he
disengaged the mainsheet and when we rolled he let it fly. The roll
took us over nearly 90 degrees and we shipped water over the coaming 6
to 10 inches in depth. Realizing how little effect releasing the main
had had, he tried to uncleat the jib. This is where we found that
despite the angle of the sail to the wind, little or no wind was being
dumped and it was a difficult task, to say the least, to uncleat the
sheet. In our case, he tried three or four mighty tugs while on the
high side of the boat with no success, so he dropped down to the low
side in order to grasp the sheet close to the camcleat and after a
couple more mighty tugs it came loose and we righted.

Did he do the right thing? Or should something else have been done?

We remind that it was a 21 footer, with a centerboard.

Thanks.

In article ,
tom wrote:
I hope no one minds a question from a lurker who drops by from time to
time.

The subject of experiencing a knockdown was recently raised and I'd
like to further extend the subject by asking what can/should one do
when knocked down?

I was recently on a 21 footer with my son-in-law at the till cruising
along fairly well with 25-30 knot winds when he noticed we were
heading into an area of additional wind. While alerting me, he
disengaged the mainsheet and when we rolled he let it fly. The roll
took us over nearly 90 degrees and we shipped water over the coaming 6
to 10 inches in depth. Realizing how little effect releasing the main
had had, he tried to uncleat the jib. This is where we found that
despite the angle of the sail to the wind, little or no wind was being
dumped and it was a difficult task, to say the least, to uncleat the
sheet. In our case, he tried three or four mighty tugs while on the
high side of the boat with no success, so he dropped down to the low
side in order to grasp the sheet close to the camcleat and after a
couple more mighty tugs it came loose and we righted.

Did he do the right thing? Or should something else have been done?

We remind that it was a 21 footer, with a centerboard.

I'd say preparing to release the jib sooner would have helped. Also,
not heading into the area of higher wind, turning more to wind, and
releasing the main before the higher wind came to fore would have been
appropriate. I don't think there's much else you could do. You didn't
say whether or not you were reefed. That would help a lot, but it's
pretty hard to do with just a few seconds.

I have a 20 footer with a 950 pound keel, so I'm in better shape. We
sail in similar conditions.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

(Jonathan Ganz) wrote in message ...
In article ,
tom wrote:
I hope no one minds a question from a lurker who drops by from time to
time.

The subject of experiencing a knockdown was recently raised and I'd
like to further extend the subject by asking what can/should one do
when knocked down?

I was recently on a 21 footer with my son-in-law at the till cruising
along fairly well with 25-30 knot winds when he noticed we were
heading into an area of additional wind. While alerting me, he
disengaged the mainsheet and when we rolled he let it fly. The roll
took us over nearly 90 degrees and we shipped water over the coaming 6
to 10 inches in depth. Realizing how little effect releasing the main
had had, he tried to uncleat the jib. This is where we found that
despite the angle of the sail to the wind, little or no wind was being
dumped and it was a difficult task, to say the least, to uncleat the
sheet. In our case, he tried three or four mighty tugs while on the
high side of the boat with no success, so he dropped down to the low
side in order to grasp the sheet close to the camcleat and after a
couple more mighty tugs it came loose and we righted.

Did he do the right thing? Or should something else have been done?

We remind that it was a 21 footer, with a centerboard.

I'd say preparing to release the jib sooner would have helped. Also,
not heading into the area of higher wind, turning more to wind, and
releasing the main before the higher wind came to fore would have been
appropriate. I don't think there's much else you could do. You didn't
say whether or not you were reefed. That would help a lot, but it's
pretty hard to do with just a few seconds.

I have a 20 footer with a 950 pound keel, so I'm in better shape. We
sail in similar conditions.

FIRST: I wish to thank everyone for responding to my post providing
food for thought.

It seems I didn't list sufficient info so here are some additional facts:

We were sailing with a reefed main and full jib. Despite the wind, we
were listing only 25 or so degrees. It is not unusual for us to hit a
a patch of additional wind and list 40-45 degrees; normally, releasing
the main a bit will suffice righting to a more comfortable aspect, and
this is what was expected, but did not occur: the boat was knocked over.
While that action was not violent, it was very quick, and the rudder was
quickly airborne and useless.

The knockdown was a first and a surprise for the both of us as neither of
us are anything but a "weekend sailor." We were sailing as we usually
sailed, with the jib sheet held by a cam* cleat. There is no way in my
estimation that one could physically hold the sheet as there is
considerable pull being exerted. Obviously, if it was known or suspected
that we were heading for a knockdown the jib sheet would have been
loosened, but such was not the case. And once we were knocked down there
was too much pressure on the mechanism to quickly release the sheet. The
boat does have winches but we have never used them to restrain a jib sheet.

*That's what Harken calls them. They consist of two cams with teeth
which exert more and more force to hold the sheet as the jib pulls on
the sheet harder.

Thanks again for your comments.

tom wrote:

The knockdown was a first and a surprise for the both of us as
neither of us are anything but a "weekend sailor." We were sailing
as we usually sailed, with the jib sheet held by a cam* cleat.
There is no way in my estimation that one could physically hold
the sheet as there is considerable pull being exerted. Obviously,
if it was known or suspected that we were heading for a knockdown
the jib sheet would have been loosened, but such was not the case.
And once we were knocked down there was too much pressure on the
mechanism to quickly release the sheet. The boat does have winches
but we have never used them to restrain a jib sheet.

Sounds like you should be putting the jibsheet on a winch, then.

With 2 or 3 turns around the winch, there'll be enough friction to be able
to keep the sheet tight without cleating it, and still be able to ease it
instantly should a knockdown loom. If you get a gust and the crew has to
ease the jib, he just has to step over once the boat comes back up and turn
the winch to sheet in, rope already around the winch, minimal effort.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

And, he might want to consider a smaller jib. Might give better balance.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Wally" wrote in message
...
tom wrote:

The knockdown was a first and a surprise for the both of us as
neither of us are anything but a "weekend sailor." We were sailing
as we usually sailed, with the jib sheet held by a cam* cleat.
There is no way in my estimation that one could physically hold
the sheet as there is considerable pull being exerted. Obviously,
if it was known or suspected that we were heading for a knockdown
the jib sheet would have been loosened, but such was not the case.
And once we were knocked down there was too much pressure on the
mechanism to quickly release the sheet. The boat does have winches
but we have never used them to restrain a jib sheet.

Sounds like you should be putting the jibsheet on a winch, then.

With 2 or 3 turns around the winch, there'll be enough friction to be able
to keep the sheet tight without cleating it, and still be able to ease it
instantly should a knockdown loom. If you get a gust and the crew has to
ease the jib, he just has to step over once the boat comes back up and
turn
the winch to sheet in, rope already around the winch, minimal effort.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

"Wally" wrote in message ...
tom wrote:

The knockdown was a first and a surprise for the both of us as
neither of us are anything but a "weekend sailor." We were sailing
as we usually sailed, with the jib sheet held by a cam* cleat.
There is no way in my estimation that one could physically hold
the sheet as there is considerable pull being exerted. Obviously,
if it was known or suspected that we were heading for a knockdown
the jib sheet would have been loosened, but such was not the case.
And once we were knocked down there was too much pressure on the
mechanism to quickly release the sheet. The boat does have winches
but we have never used them to restrain a jib sheet.

Sounds like you should be putting the jibsheet on a winch, then.

With 2 or 3 turns around the winch, there'll be enough friction to be able
to keep the sheet tight without cleating it, and still be able to ease it
instantly should a knockdown loom. If you get a gust and the crew has to
ease the jib, he just has to step over once the boat comes back up and turn
the winch to sheet in, rope already around the winch, minimal effort.


I don't mean to flog a dead horse, so I'll close this with a thank
you, but
I was looking for action/s which would either prevent a knockdown at
the time circumstances are causing such; or if knocked down: action/s
which can limit the severity of the knockdown. Obviously, there are a
number of things we could have done to prevent a knockdown, such as
reefing the main more and furling the jib before we went out on the
water; however, that's hindsight. Prior to the knockdown we both were
of the opinion that releasing/easing the main and jib sheets was
sufficient action to largely control heeling. We are probably right in
our assumption; however, such is qualified by the fact that it seems
almost impossible to uncleat the jib sheet from the high side when a
knockdown occurs, and it still isn't easy when one grasps the sheet
mere inches from the cleating mechanism.

Once again, thanks to all who offered an opinion.

Back to intermittent lurk status

tom wrote:

I don't mean to flog a dead horse, so I'll close this with a thank
you, but
I was looking for action/s which would either prevent a knockdown at
the time circumstances are causing such; or if knocked down: action/s
which can limit the severity of the knockdown. ...

That's what I just said: Take the jibsheet around the winch, uncleated if
neccessary, with the free end in the crew's hand. If the crew is on the
ball, it can be eased instantly and the knockdown won't be so severe to
begin with.


... We are probably right in
our assumption; however, such is qualified by the fact that it seems
almost impossible to uncleat the jib sheet from the high side when a
knockdown occurs, and it still isn't easy when one grasps the sheet
mere inches from the cleating mechanism.

Then isn't that an issue that needs to be addressed? Maybe the cleat needs
to be repositioned, or maybe a different crew movement would make it easier.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

"tom" wrote in message
om...

I don't mean to flog a dead horse, so I'll close this with a thank
you, but
I was looking for action/s which would either prevent a knockdown at
the time circumstances are causing such; or if knocked down: action/s
which can limit the severity of the knockdown.

I think that it is very difficult for many people to give sensible advice
because we sail very different boats.

For example, I cannot imagine what it is like to sail a boat(other than a
small dinghy) that doesn't use a winch for the jib sheet.


Obviously, there are a
number of things we could have done to prevent a knockdown, such as
reefing the main more and furling the jib before we went out on the
water; however, that's hindsight.

You may have answered your own question.

A few weeks ago we set out with the genoa completely furled. The wind was
blowing at 25 - 30 kts - on the nose, and I felt that it might be more out
on the water. I decided that a 3/4's furled jib would be next to useless
in such conditions - so we left it completely furled up. After we had
endured 40+Kts for 5 minutes, I was glad that the genoa was completely
furled.



Prior to the knockdown we both were
of the opinion that releasing/easing the main and jib sheets was
sufficient action to largely control heeling. We are probably right in
our assumption; however, such is qualified by the fact that it seems
almost impossible to uncleat the jib sheet from the high side when a
knockdown occurs, and it still isn't easy when one grasps the sheet
mere inches from the cleating mechanism.

Without knowing the layout of your boat, it is difficult to form an opinion.
I am still unable to picture a scenario where a sheet would be restrained by
a winch and a cam-cleat. I think that you either took your boat beyond its
design limits, or you should have had the sheet wrapped around a winch.



Once again, thanks to all who offered an opinion.

Back to intermittent lurk status

Please don't lurk! This is a sailing ng - we need sailing questions!!!!




Thanks

Donal
--

tom wrote:

Did he do the right thing? Or should something else have been done?

I guess the answer is that the jibsheet should have been released sooner.
Maybe the helm should be looking after the mainsheet as well as the tiller?

I crew on a 22.5-footer, and the helm handles mainsheet and tiller. If we're
short-handed while out in a blow, I lead the free end of the cleated
jibsheet (goes from coaming, to coachroof winch, down to a clamcleat on the
bulkhead) over to the high side and drape it round the other winch. If
things go pear-shaped, I can dump air from the jib without having to move
around the boat.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

tom wrote:
Did he do the right thing? Or should something else have been done?


Well, you lived to tell about it, so how wrong could it be? But there
may be better ways to handle the situation.


Wally wrote:
I guess the answer is that the jibsheet should have been released sooner.
Maybe the helm should be looking after the mainsheet as well as the tiller?

I think that's a good answer. It's universal on small boats.


I crew on a 22.5-footer, and the helm handles mainsheet and tiller. If we're
short-handed while out in a blow, I lead the free end of the cleated
jibsheet (goes from coaming, to coachroof winch, down to a clamcleat on the
bulkhead) over to the high side and drape it round the other winch. If
things go pear-shaped, I can dump air from the jib without having to move
around the boat.


The big payoff is when the sheets are trimmed pro-actively, with
feedback from the hand on the helm. As the boat gets overpowered, the
helm loads up and easing the main keeps the boat on her feet and
driving... at some point, as the main is eased, the force on the jib
tends to push the bow to leeward so that helps the boat balance too.

But if the boat heels too far and the force on the jib too great, it can
not only lay the boat on her side but also spin it to leeward... a bad
scenario. My philosophy has always been to start easing the jib sheet as
well as the main, any time the gust is bad enough to require easing more
than, say a foot or so, of mainsheet.

It all require some forethought. FOr example, the time to think about
putting in the hatchboards is not when the water is already pouring in!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King