"katysails" wrote in message

And if the average hoipoloi didn't clamor for there's there would be
enough fir those sickly individuals....almost every health care worker in
the US is summarily stabbed every year on the off chance they might
contract it from a victim...truth is, handwashing is far more effective a
preventative....

True indeed. I've resorted to using an alcohol-based hand "sterilizing"
lotion between and during patient visits.

other truth is, the flu shot only protects against a very limited number of
strains and there are usually 100 x more out there that it doesn't
protect....it is not a health care panacea....

The latest word is that a strain called New Zealand # something or other is
the feared edition this year. And the current vaccines are ineffective
against it.

As an aside, many of my patients report getting the flu each year despite
having a flu shot. The whole flu shot morass is almost fraudulent in the
way its hyped by the media.

Max

In article ,
katysails wrote:
And if the average hoipoloi didn't clamor for there's there would be enough
fir those sickly individuals....almost every health care worker in the US is
summarily stabbed every year on the off chance they might contract it from a
victim...truth is, handwashing is far more effective a preventative....other
truth is, the flu shot only protects against a very limited number of
strains and there are usually 100 x more out there that it doesn't
protect....it is not a health care panacea....

And, I never said it was a health care panacea. I said that it's a
prudent step to take in preventing a lot of dying. Even the gov't,
which you seem to want to have nothing to do with, says that.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

In article ,
katysails wrote:
BTW, there won't be any Social Security...we pay heavily for our own health
insurance, and banks are protected by the FDIC....if you are counting on

People have been saying that for 40 years. My mother gets SS, as did
my father and most of their friends. Do they rely on it completely?
No. But, it's an important part of their retirement. They deserve
it. They paid for it.

Social Security to take care of you when you're ancient, you're really in
sad shape...that is the biggest myth the Democrats ever promulgated and FDR
never intended that people should live on SS benefits...they were to be an
assistance...all the money I have put into the SS system has gone to take
care of those that are drawing right now....there won't be the population
necessary to do the same for me when I retire. Public utilities? What are
those? We have a well and a septic field...and there is no public

Don't you know? I guess next time you're in a car accident and have to
go to an emergency room or you have to dial 911 and no one answers,
you'll figure it out. Grand Rapids is not the rest of the country. How
about the homeless? Should they be left to starve or freeze to death?

transportation outside the city limits of Grand Rapids unless you drive to
the Mall to take the bus in...and no commuter trains...so I guess I'm really
not worried about those things..I've never had them so won't miss them.
As far as your abortion diatribe, my opinions do not have anything to do
with government...if the government puts it up for a vote, then as a citizen
I vote and have my say...if it's not to my liking, I have the RIGHT to still
have my say, which you seem to not understand....if a mother's life is in
danger, then there is a necessity for abortion.

But that's the point. The right-wing fanatics are not interested in
the life of the mother. They would ban all abortions for all reasons.

Over the years I have never
met anyone who had an abortion for that reason. I have known women who had
them for monetary reasons...because they didn't want to wait and give the
baby up for adoption...because they wanted to get back at the man and punish
him...because it was a girl baby and not a boy like they wanted....there are
scenarios where an abortion is the lesser of two evils...those incidences
are not in that category...

Just because you haven't doesn't mean they don't exist. You would
saddle a 15 year old with a child she can't take care of and doesn't
want all because of one mistake? She's going to be mature enough to
take care of herself long enough to have a healthy baby? What about
the girl who was raped by her father, uncle or boyfriend, but is
afraid to say anything? Seems rather cruel, but if that's ok with you,
fine. It's not ok with me, and I don't think your or my will should be
imposed on the rest of the people. That's what you don't seem to
understand.

As far as getting out, I'm out every day....I read the medical trade
journals for the long term care industry. What you have to remember is that
San Francisco is not the world...it is a very specialized community that
lives quite differently than the rest of us in the US....

I don't live nor do I work in SF. Neither is GR. So do you.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

And that's only if you retire making the same or more than you are now...if
you get laid off and start making minimum wage just watch those numbers
change!
"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
I get a letter from SS ,about every six months, with a chart showing
what I'll get at different retirement ages. It's enough to buy dry
dog food, but not the good canned stuff.

Scotty


"DSK" wrote in message
t...
katysails wrote:
BTW, there won't be any Social Security...

When? As I understand it, the current SS plan is good up into the
2040s... of course that includes a lot of dodges like increasing
taxes
on retirement income, raising the benefit age, decreasing benefits,
etc etc.

....if you are counting on
Social Security to take care of you when you're ancient, you're
really in
sad shape...

Agreed. My advice to anyone looking ahead to retirement is, if you
can't
save money now, start eating dog food. 1- it'll help you save and 2-
you'd better get used to the taste.

... that is the biggest myth the Democrats ever promulgated and
FDR
never intended that people should live on SS benefits...they were
to be an
assistance...

:
BTW, there won't be any Social Security...we pay heavily for our own
health
insurance, and banks are protected by the FDIC....if you are counting on

People have been saying that for 40 years. My mother gets SS, as did
my father and most of their friends. Do they rely on it completely?
No. But, it's an important part of their retirement. They deserve
it. They paid for it.

I'm not saying they didn't pay for it....take a poll, Jon...the majority of
the US actuially believes that they are going to be taken care of by the
government...Social Security and Medicare...in their old age....they do not
have savings...they have very little equity in their homes because they buy
second mortgages and home equity loans...many have gone to reverese
mortgages to get by....

Social Security to take care of you when you're ancient, you're really in
sad shape...that is the biggest myth the Democrats ever promulgated and
FDR
never intended that people should live on SS benefits...they were to be an
assistance...all the money I have put into the SS system has gone to take
care of those that are drawing right now....there won't be the population
necessary to do the same for me when I retire. Public utilities? What
are
those? We have a well and a septic field...and there is no public

Don't you know? I guess next time you're in a car accident and have to
go to an emergency room or you have to dial 911 and no one answers,
you'll figure it out.

Figure what out? That the 6K I shell out of my pocket (my portion of my
emplyer's plan) and the 20% deductible and the co-pay and my check book pay
the bill? I've got that all figured out.

Grand Rapids is not the rest of the country. How
about the homeless?

We are not speaking of those individuals who honestly cannot get by in life.
They, of course, should be provided for. However, there are many on our
Social Service rosters who take advant5age of the system. I can tell you of
about 15 young ladies who are screwing the system as we speak...so if I know
20, then you probably know a few, too, as does most everyone. And I'm tired
of opaying for them. I speak monthly with FIA reps here in MI reporting on
my employee's wages....I know exactly what's going on. Yes, we do have
young ladies that need the assistance, but when I see someone who is
recieiving all kinds of government perks walking down the hall with her
camera cell phone, wearing $200.00 Nikes, and driving an SUV that gets at
best 15 mpg while receiving that assistance it makes my blood boil.

Should they be left to starve or freeze to death?

If course not, but we're not talking about them, are we? We're talking
about Joe the Average American.


transportation outside the city limits of Grand Rapids unless you drive to
the Mall to take the bus in...and no commuter trains...so I guess I'm
really
not worried about those things..I've never had them so won't miss them.
As far as your abortion diatribe, my opinions do not have anything to do
with government...if the government puts it up for a vote, then as a
citizen
I vote and have my say...if it's not to my liking, I have the RIGHT to
still
have my say, which you seem to not understand....if a mother's life is in
danger, then there is a necessity for abortion.

But that's the point. The right-wing fanatics are not interested in
the life of the mother. They would ban all abortions for all reasons.

Nom they wouldn't. Just as Doug pointed out, there are various scenarios of
what people will accept and not accept. The problem is the slippery slope
thing....where do you draew the line?

Over the years I have never
met anyone who had an abortion for that reason. I have known women who
had
them for monetary reasons...because they didn't want to wait and give the
baby up for adoption...because they wanted to get back at the man and
punish
him...because it was a girl baby and not a boy like they wanted....there
are
scenarios where an abortion is the lesser of two evils...those incidences
are not in that category...

Just because you haven't doesn't mean they don't exist. You would
saddle a 15 year old with a child she can't take care of and doesn't
want all because of one mistake?

Yes. I would. She is culpable. She must learn how to take care of what
whe has brought into the world or she must give the baby up for adoption.

She's going to be mature enough to
take care of herself long enough to have a healthy baby?

Yes. There are programs available. And there are plenty of infertile
couples who want that baby.

What about
the girl who was raped by her father, uncle or boyfriend, but is
afraid to say anything?

Grasping here, Jon. The chances of preganancy in those cases is probably
very slight. But then you get to the lesser of two evils thing. That's one
of the gray areas.


Seems rather cruel, but if that's ok with you,
fine. It's not ok with me, and I don't think your or my will should be
imposed on the rest of the people.

It's not yours or mine individual wills but the combined wills of many
people.


That's what you don't seem to
understand.

Oh, I understand quite well. You want it all your way. And everyone else
is wrong.

As far as getting out, I'm out every day....I read the medical trade
journals for the long term care industry. What you have to remember is
that
San Francisco is not the world...it is a very specialized community that
lives quite differently than the rest of us in the US....

I don't live nor do I work in SF. Neither is GR. So do you.

Many people don't die of the flu anymore. Relatively few do, or have, for
decades. Get your facts straight.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article ,
katysails wrote:
And if the average hoipoloi didn't clamor for there's there would be
enough
fir those sickly individuals....almost every health care worker in the US
is
summarily stabbed every year on the off chance they might contract it from
a
victim...truth is, handwashing is far more effective a
preventative....other
truth is, the flu shot only protects against a very limited number of
strains and there are usually 100 x more out there that it doesn't
protect....it is not a health care panacea....

And, I never said it was a health care panacea. I said that it's a
prudent step to take in preventing a lot of dying. Even the gov't,
which you seem to want to have nothing to do with, says that.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

In article ,
katysails wrote:
I'm not saying they didn't pay for it....take a poll, Jon...the majority of
the US actuially believes that they are going to be taken care of by the
government...Social Security and Medicare...in their old age....they do not
have savings...they have very little equity in their homes because they buy
second mortgages and home equity loans...many have gone to reverese
mortgages to get by....

I believe you. This is an education problem that the government should
take a major responsible role for, but that doesn't mean we should
scrap it.

Figure what out? That the 6K I shell out of my pocket (my portion of my
emplyer's plan) and the 20% deductible and the co-pay and my check book pay
the bill? I've got that all figured out.

Figure out that someday you or a loved one will need the gov't
intervention to live. I hope it doesn't happen, but it has happened to
me. It's easy to claim to be self-reliant; it's another to actually be
so.

Grand Rapids is not the rest of the country. How
about the homeless?

We are not speaking of those individuals who honestly cannot get by in life.
They, of course, should be provided for. However, there are many on our
Social Service rosters who take advant5age of the system. I can tell you of

There are many, but not as many as you think. They said that about
welfare mom's. Sure there are a few who screw the system. That will
always be true. That doesn't mean there is something so wrong with the
system that it can't be fixed. Bush wants to scrap many of the gov't
ensured protections that we have. SS is just one of them he would like
to errode.

about 15 young ladies who are screwing the system as we speak...so if I know
20, then you probably know a few, too, as does most everyone. And I'm tired
of opaying for them. I speak monthly with FIA reps here in MI reporting on
my employee's wages....I know exactly what's going on. Yes, we do have
young ladies that need the assistance, but when I see someone who is
recieiving all kinds of government perks walking down the hall with her
camera cell phone, wearing $200.00 Nikes, and driving an SUV that gets at
best 15 mpg while receiving that assistance it makes my blood boil.

Yes, I'm sick of them two. Why don't you report them? Again, most of
the time, the vast majority of the time, people who are being helped
by gov't assistance need that help.

Should they be left to starve or freeze to death?

If course not, but we're not talking about them, are we? We're talking
about Joe the Average American.

No. The obligation of the majority is to protect the rights of the
minority. That's been codified for centuries.

Nom they wouldn't. Just as Doug pointed out, there are various scenarios of
what people will accept and not accept. The problem is the slippery slope
thing....where do you draew the line?

Exactly. Where do you draw the line. IMHO, the line is between the
woman, her god, and the doctor. The gov't has no business
interferring, yet the right-wingers insist on it. Why?

Just because you haven't doesn't mean they don't exist. You would
saddle a 15 year old with a child she can't take care of and doesn't
want all because of one mistake?

Yes. I would. She is culpable. She must learn how to take care of what
whe has brought into the world or she must give the baby up for adoption.

No. She's a child. Children are not responsible for their
actions. That's just cold-hearted and mean. Why is it necessary to
ruin her life and probably the life of the child after it's born? So
you can feel good about your paycheck or your morality??

She's going to be mature enough to
take care of herself long enough to have a healthy baby?

Yes. There are programs available. And there are plenty of infertile
couples who want that baby.

Really? Well, that's news to me? Do you really think most people are going
want a baby from a 15 year old child from a broken home, a minority,
who hasn't even gotten out of high school, and who might be doing drugs
during the pregnancy?

What about
the girl who was raped by her father, uncle or boyfriend, but is
afraid to say anything?

Grasping here, Jon. The chances of preganancy in those cases is probably
very slight. But then you get to the lesser of two evils thing. That's one
of the gray areas.

Not really. So, you're saying that you can't get pregnant if you're a
virgin and your uncle rapes you? You call it a grey area, but how does
this child get through the system if she has to inform her father, the
guy who raped her, that she's requesting an abortion? There is always
the lessor of two evils. I'm not in favor of abortion. I'm just in
favor of the woman's right to make the decision, and not have some
"official" do it for her.

Seems rather cruel, but if that's ok with you,
fine. It's not ok with me, and I don't think your or my will should be
imposed on the rest of the people.

It's not yours or mine individual wills but the combined wills of many
people.

The vast majority of people in this country support a woman's right to
choose. Yet, the Bush administration and other right-wing groups are
attempting to get around those wishes... it's something like 80% I
believe.

That's what you don't seem to
understand.

Oh, I understand quite well. You want it all your way. And everyone else
is wrong.

No. I want us to follow the rule of law and respect the majority view.





--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

I can't get laid off, I sleep with the boss.

Scotty

"katysails" wrote in message
...
And that's only if you retire making the same or more than you are
now...if
you get laid off and start making minimum wage just watch those
numbers
change!
"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
I get a letter from SS ,about every six months, with a chart
showing
what I'll get at different retirement ages. It's enough to buy
dry
dog food, but not the good canned stuff.

Scotty


"DSK" wrote in message
t...
katysails wrote:
BTW, there won't be any Social Security...

When? As I understand it, the current SS plan is good up into the
2040s... of course that includes a lot of dodges like increasing
taxes
on retirement income, raising the benefit age, decreasing
benefits,
etc etc.

....if you are counting on
Social Security to take care of you when you're ancient, you're
really in
sad shape...

Agreed. My advice to anyone looking ahead to retirement is, if
you
can't
save money now, start eating dog food. 1- it'll help you save and
2-
you'd better get used to the taste.

... that is the biggest myth the Democrats ever promulgated and
FDR
never intended that people should live on SS benefits...they
were
to be an
assistance...

I'm not saying they didn't pay for it....take a poll, Jon...the majority
of
the US actuially believes that they are going to be taken care of by the
government...Social Security and Medicare...in their old age....they do
not
have savings...they have very little equity in their homes because they
buy
second mortgages and home equity loans...many have gone to reverese
mortgages to get by....

I believe you. This is an education problem that the government should
take a major responsible role for, but that doesn't mean we should
scrap it.

Once again, no culpability.....


Figure what out? That the 6K I shell out of my pocket (my portion of my
emplyer's plan) and the 20% deductible and the co-pay and my check book
pay
the bill? I've got that all figured out.

Figure out that someday you or a loved one will need the gov't
intervention to live. I hope it doesn't happen, but it has happened to
me. It's easy to claim to be self-reliant; it's another to actually be
so.

If it comes to that, then I hope I die....but I doubt it will come to
that....you see, uinstead of a cell phone and vehicles that cost a bundle to
drive, and trading up to a newer bigger house every year, we've pauid all
our bills, own our vehicles and boat free and clear and put our money away
so that that will never happen. My son jokes about Mom's room at his house,
but if I can help it, that will never be. If it comes to that, then at
least there will be something that we've provided to take care of me.


Grand Rapids is not the rest of the country. How
about the homeless?

We are not speaking of those individuals who honestly cannot get by in
life.
They, of course, should be provided for. However, there are many on our
Social Service rosters who take advant5age of the system. I can tell you
of

There are many, but not as many as you think. They said that about
welfare mom's. Sure there are a few who screw the system. That will
always be true. That doesn't mean there is something so wrong with the
system that it can't be fixed. Bush wants to scrap many of the gov't
ensured protections that we have. SS is just one of them he would like
to errode.

about 15 young ladies who are screwing the system as we speak...so if I
know
20, then you probably know a few, too, as does most everyone. And I'm
tired
of opaying for them. I speak monthly with FIA reps here in MI reporting
on
my employee's wages....I know exactly what's going on. Yes, we do have
young ladies that need the assistance, but when I see someone who is
recieiving all kinds of government perks walking down the hall with her
camera cell phone, wearing $200.00 Nikes, and driving an SUV that gets at
best 15 mpg while receiving that assistance it makes my blood boil.

Yes, I'm sick of them two. Why don't you report them?

I have. Repreatedly. It does nop good. I have employees from the Goodwill
OJT that work wonderfully until their contract with OJT is met and then they
start to call in and shirk....so we end up having to terminate them...and
then in 3 months they're hired at the nursing home next door on the same OJT
project...I've seen this happen 3 times in the past 2 years...

Again, most of
the time, the vast majority of the time, people who are being helped
by gov't assistance need that help.

Nope. The government needs to help them not need help. They need to make
them culpable for their actions. They need to learn the consequences of
making bad choices.


Should they be left to starve or freeze to death?

If course not, but we're not talking about them, are we? We're talking
about Joe the Average American.

No. The obligation of the majority is to protect the rights of the
minority. That's been codified for centuries.

To protect, not to enable bad behavior and foster slothfullness and
entitlement.


Nom they wouldn't. Just as Doug pointed out, there are various scenarios
of
what people will accept and not accept. The problem is the slippery slope
thing....where do you draew the line?

Exactly. Where do you draw the line. IMHO, the line is between the
woman, her god, and the doctor. The gov't has no business
interferring, yet the right-wingers insist on it. Why?

Just because you haven't doesn't mean they don't exist. You would
saddle a 15 year old with a child she can't take care of and doesn't
want all because of one mistake?

Yes. I would. She is culpable. She must learn how to take care of what
whe has brought into the world or she must give the baby up for adoption.

No. She's a child.

Young women of 15 are not children in this day and age, and probably weren't
in any day and age.

Children are not responsible for their
actions.

The age of reason begins around the age of 7. Moral conciousness is
developed before then. And yes, children are and should be held resposible
for their actions. You really need a good dose of Jim Fay and Love and
Logic. Good thing you don't have kids,..they'd be a royal mess.

That's just cold-hearted and mean.

Bleeding heart liberal...responsible for most of the social ills of the
present because you don't realize that people, children included, must be
responsible for their actions.

Why is it necessary to
ruin her life and probably the life of the child after it's born? So
you can feel good about your paycheck or your morality??

My paycheck and morality have nothing to do with it. How many young women
who've had abortions have you talked to? They are usually consymed with
guilt for years and years afterwards and regret what they did.


She's going to be mature enough to
take care of herself long enough to have a healthy baby?

Yes. There are programs available. And there are plenty of infertile
couples who want that baby.

Really? Well, that's news to me? Do you really think most people are going
want a baby from a 15 year old child from a broken home, a minority,
who hasn't even gotten out of high school, and who might be doing drugs
during the pregnancy?

Yep. There are tons of people out there waiting for those babies and they
cry themselves to sleep every night because there isn't one for them. Go
check the lists at the adoption agencies. Lots of people who are waiting
and waiting and waiting. And BTW, my sister adopted 4 of those kinds of
children. And now she's fostering 3 more, so don;'t tell me there aren't
people out there. My cousin in MN has fosterd and adopted, also. Maybe you
need to start running with a different crowd if you haven't met any of those
kind of folks.

What about
the girl who was raped by her father, uncle or boyfriend, but is
afraid to say anything?

Grasping here, Jon. The chances of preganancy in those cases is probably
very slight. But then you get to the lesser of two evils thing. That's
one
of the gray areas.

Not really. So, you're saying that you can't get pregnant if you're a
virgin and your uncle rapes you?

No I didn't say that. Now you're getting totally ridiculous.

You call it a grey area, but how does
this child get through the system if she has to inform her father, the
guy who raped her, that she's requesting an abortion?

She informs the school guidance couselor, Protective Services, the
police...she emancipates herself. rather than educate about abortion,
educate on how to take care of yourself.


There is always
the lessor of two evils. I'm not in favor of abortion. I'm just in
favor of the woman's right to make the decision, and not have some
"official" do it for her.

Seems rather cruel, but if that's ok with you,
fine. It's not ok with me, and I don't think your or my will should be
imposed on the rest of the people.

It's not yours or mine individual wills but the combined wills of many
people.

The vast majority of people in this country support a woman's right to
choose.

As do I. But that doesn't mean that I don't think the action is wrong and
immoral. And it doesn't mean that I still don't have the right to my
opinion or the right to voice my opinion.


Yet, the Bush administration and other right-wing groups are
attempting to get around those wishes... it's something like 80% I
believe.

If that were so, the issue would be settled. And the 80% would not vote for
Bush.


That's what you don't seem to
understand.

Oh, I understand quite well. You want it all your way. And everyone else
is wrong.

No. I want us to follow the rule of law and respect the majority view.

Ah, but what about those minority rights? You seem to have forgotten about
them quite conveniently.

You and I will never agree on anything political, Jon, so I'm ending this
discussion because I like you way too much to argue with you further. You
want to talk about sailing, that's fine with me, but this foes nowhere.







--

Ah, are you being coerced? Quid pro quo.... You could prosecute her and get
her for damages...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
I can't get laid off, I sleep with the boss.

Scotty

"katysails" wrote in message
...
And that's only if you retire making the same or more than you are
now...if
you get laid off and start making minimum wage just watch those
numbers
change!
"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
I get a letter from SS ,about every six months, with a chart
showing
what I'll get at different retirement ages. It's enough to buy
dry
dog food, but not the good canned stuff.

Scotty


"DSK" wrote in message
t...
katysails wrote:
BTW, there won't be any Social Security...

When? As I understand it, the current SS plan is good up into the
2040s... of course that includes a lot of dodges like increasing
taxes
on retirement income, raising the benefit age, decreasing
benefits,
etc etc.

....if you are counting on
Social Security to take care of you when you're ancient, you're
really in
sad shape...

Agreed. My advice to anyone looking ahead to retirement is, if
you
can't
save money now, start eating dog food. 1- it'll help you save and
2-
you'd better get used to the taste.

... that is the biggest myth the Democrats ever promulgated and
FDR
never intended that people should live on SS benefits...they
were
to be an
assistance...