Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Once again, I invite you to highlight *anything* in my posts that could be
deemed "unscientific".

I don't have blind faith. I've worked it out.

You've used poor math. There's no scientific evidence to suggest god exists or
predates the universe, meaning god had to also be created. No one knows the
answer. God is a fable...and not a very nice one. In fact, there's no reason to
believe that I'm not god. I can prove it quite easily.

RB

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
The difference is, I had the strength of character to question it.

But - you didn't question it, did you?

Of course I questioned it, point by point, years ago, again and again and
through many debates and discussions.

So, did you reach any conclusions?


I made a decision, based on my control of
fear.

Tell us about it?

Regards

Donal
--

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

On Thu, 20 May 2004 10:50:59 -0400, Walt
wrote this crap:

Horvath wrote:

We have a quarter mile of the best beach in the midwest,

On Lake Erie? Are you are actually saying that the best beach in the
midwest is on Lake friggin' Erie ten milles from Toledo and within sight
of the power plants?

Lake Erie is the Southernmost, and warmest of the Great Lakes. There
are some nice beaches on Lake Superior, but you can't swim there. The
water temperature at my end of Lake Erie exceeds 80 degrees in the
summertime, making swimming a pleasure.

And it's fresh water, pure enough to drink.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Nope. I'm agnostic. That means I'm open to anything. There MIGHT be a god
just as there might be aliens just as....
You get the idea. It's the only logical approach. A human beings greatest
strength is it's ability to learn, to seek out. Faith destroys all of that.

RB

You'd be better off as an atheist, my friend. Because right now you just sound
too lazy to care. Don't mean to be insulting, but you sound like you don't
know, and you really don't give a damn. You'd be better off if you were an
atheist--spiritually speaking, in my opinion.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Ahhh .... Errrr.... Which god are we talking about?

The word "God" can only mean one thing. There are many viewpoints God, but
by definition, there can only be one God. That's not religion; that's just
symantics.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Walt declared: You're even more delusional than I thought

Absolutely. The sand on the beaches down by Sandusky is dark and looks more
like road grade sand than beach sand...On the other hand, our sand on Lake
Michigan is pristine and white and has a very fine grain comparably....Lake
Michigan beaches are infinitely more superior in every way...and we don't
have big old dead sheephead washing up all over the beach, either.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

You met this Jesus guy. 25 years after Elvis death, and no one can even agree
on how he died, what he ate or even if he's actually dead! And that's with
todays much more advanced record keeping and media. But you KNOW Jesus was a
caring fellow.
Oh, okay.

RB

An historical Jesus is irrelevant. What we have are the Gospels: Matthew, Mark,
Luke, John and I suggest Thomas. We consider the truth of these documents and
they either change us into Christ or they don't. What Jesus was as a human is
irrelevant; whether or not you transform into Christ is all that matters.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Nope. A person is a winner or a loser based primarily on his attitude. I can
appreciate where you're coming from on this, having been raised in an
environment where Matthew 16:23 was an item of faith. But the fact is that
among the rich as with any other group, there are the good and the bad, and
to condemn as evil all who have much more than you is to blind yourself to
reality.

I never said the rich were evil; I said they were handicap.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Ed & Lil Stevie support the murder of americans going to work.

Amazing. Just amazing.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Don't mean to be insulting, but you sound like you don't
know, and you really don't give a damn.


Wrong. I care, but I also see the problem as unsolvable. I'm sure not taking
anyone's word for it. And that's all god is, a belief passed on through
generations. Pretty much how Voodoo survived into modern times. Still, I can't
prove there's no god to my satisfaction, so the possibility exists however
remote. An Athiest is certain that there is no god which is in itself a type of
close minded faith as narrow as any other.

Agnostic - a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is
unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing
in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god -open to
consideration, discussion and so on.

RB

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

EdGordonRN wrote:

Ahhh .... Errrr.... Which god are we talking about?


The word "God" can only mean one thing. There are many viewpoints God, but
by definition, there can only be one God. That's not religion; that's just
symantics.


Hahhahahahahhah Which book of facts did you read that in?

Cheers

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Donal wrote:

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...

But if you've ever been touched by the spirit, you know it's not that
simple. Faith is the opposite of blind trust.

Faith IS blind trust, regardless of your other comments.


Rubbish!!

How did the Universe come into existence?

Faith is the only option that is available to the enquiring mind.

If your small mind is capable of considering the origins of the Universe,
then you will realise that there are only three options.

1) God created it.
2) It is endlessly expanding and contracting
3) It was created in a single event which resulted in equal amounts of
"matter" and "anti-matter".


Which option do you believe in?


None of the above. I'm partial to evidence for the idea that expansion
of the universe is accelerating.

Cheers

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Wally wrote:

Donal wrote:


I believe that one of my three options is currently "in vogue" with
the scienticic community.


Is that the same as saying that those hypotheses that don't agree with the
fashionable one have been falsified?



Furthermore, scientists will produce
evidence, backed up by observation, to prove that their theory is
correct.


Are there other scientists that will produce different evidence to prove
that *their* theory is correct?



So I think that the question *can* be answered in terms
that are generally acceptable.


You can tell someone that the sun is warm, and prove it by standing them in
the sun to feel its warmth. If I tell somone that god made the universe, how
do I show him or make him experience it? Ditto for a big bang or a cyclical
thing that has always been.

The universe is big.

Really big.

Honest, I'm not kidding.

We're sitting here on our speck of molten iron, throwing radio stations into
space, while we shoot around in something that is flabbergastingly huge. I'm
a little skeptical of the notion that we've acquired enough data to go
making proclamations of how it all began, or whether it did or didn't begin
at all.


Well of course it doesn't exist. We all know that.

Cheers

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Donal wrote:


Some
of my best friends are religious.


Uh oh! That sounds like "Some of my best friends are black"!!!!


Are you a racist?

Cheers

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Bobsprit wrote:



Not correct. Einstein spoke of physics and energy, not abstract beliefs. You
score a 0 for attempting to assign values mathamatical levels.
If you truly want to use science here, then consider that thought is
electro-chemical in nature and being "right or wrong" both operate within the
same limits.
Doesn't say much for any god, now does it?


You'll be a materialist then.

Cheers

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Joe wrote:




Whale vomit floats, used for years in the production of perfume. Whale **** sinks.



Some whale vomit sinks. Some whale **** floats. A bit like yours really.

Cheers

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Bobsprit wrote:

Whale vomit floats, used for years in the production of perfume. Whale ****
sinks.

Whale **** floats and Ambergis is not vomit.


Do you mean ambergris?

Cheers

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Agnostic - a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God)
is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to
believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god -open to
consideration, discussion and so on.

RB

But with the above definition, you make a divine joke of yourself. You are
permanently seeking the answer to a question you don't believe can ever be
answered. It's the futility of academics.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

EdGordonRN wrote:
Agnostic - a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality
(as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not
committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of
God or a god -open to consideration, discussion and so on.

But with the above definition, you make a divine joke of yourself.
You are permanently seeking the answer to a question you don't
believe can ever be answered. It's the futility of academics.

The definition doesn't mention *seeking* an answer. There's a difference
between actively looking for something, and being willing to consider new
ideas or evidence.


--
Wally
www.forthsailing.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

But with the above definition, you make a divine joke of yourself.

A divine joke can't exist without god. So...no worries!

RB

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

It's the futility of academics.


Academics, even without resolution, can always build brain power and improve
life.

RB

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

I think you are overlooking one of the prime reasons for the
establishment of organized religion from the earliest times.

Simply put; The need to establish a higher authority on which to hang
and enforce the rules for living in organized societies. The
establishment of which was far more efficiently done with a priestly
class as opposed to a standing army.

On 21 May 2004 02:40:23 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote:

Don't mean to be insulting, but you sound like you don't
know, and you really don't give a damn.


Wrong. I care, but I also see the problem as unsolvable. I'm sure not taking
anyone's word for it. And that's all god is, a belief passed on through
generations. Pretty much how Voodoo survived into modern times. Still, I can't
prove there's no god to my satisfaction, so the possibility exists however
remote. An Athiest is certain that there is no god which is in itself a type of
close minded faith as narrow as any other.

Agnostic - a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is
unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing
in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god -open to
consideration, discussion and so on.

RB

God--a mistake
 

"Joe" wrote
There arises in all of us, of any culture, universal feelings of right and
wrong.

Wrong! There is no *universal* feeling of right and wrong. You believe there
is because you are ignorant of other cultures but the very notion that there
is "right" and "wrong" is the poison of Eve's Apple. Is it OK for me to
murder you and your family? It is if I'm a radical Muslim and you're a
heretic who believes in democracy and thinks men should make laws instead of
obeying the god-given sharia (sp?). The Taliban executed women for learning
to read, believing they followed YHWH's orders. It's also OK if you're a bit
odd. After all the "good" people of Salem who executed people for witchcraft
were fighting evil and, like serial killers and child molesters, show no
remorse. Are Michael Jackson's relations with young boys good or bad? Nazis
thought they were doing "the right thing" and, as we speak, Israel is doing
the same "right thing" to the indigineous Palistinians.

Where did we get this sense of wrongness Blobster?

From parents and peers whilst growing up from infanthood, Joe. That's why no
sense of wrongness agrees. Sheeple are all worked up over "torture" in
Iraqui prisons because they grew up wimpy; but I have yet to see anything
worse than a frat initiation cuz my peers thot it great sport to pour gas
down somebody's crack and light it off. OTOH I'm appalled by GW's ban on
medical research - 1000s doomed to die of diabetes and heart disease, or to
live out their lives as parapheligics just because some idiots sense of
wrongness says stem cell research is evil.

...... Our conscience can best be explained by a loving
Creator who cares about the decisions and harmony of humanity.

You're joking! Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same god, the
joker who conned Abraham into mutilating his penis, yet they murder each
other daily. If we pulled out of Iraq today the Shia majority would butcher
the Sunni minority for it's sins, just like Christians and Muslims did when
the "godless communists" pulled out of Yugoslavia! Same with Catholics and
Protestants in Ireland. So much for your god-given sense of right and wrong.
There is a documentary movie named "Marjo" that you really should see.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"EdGordonRN" wrote

An historical Jesus is irrelevant. What we have are the Gospels: Matthew,
Mark,
Luke, John and I suggest Thomas. We consider the truth of these documents
and
they either change us into Christ or they don't. What Jesus was as a human
is
irrelevant; whether or not you transform into Christ is all that matters.

YES!! You're right! These "documents" can change one into an irrelevent
figure!

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Horvath wrote:

Lake Erie is the Southernmost, and warmest of the Great Lakes. There
are some nice beaches on Lake Superior, but you can't swim there. The
water temperature at my end of Lake Erie exceeds 80 degrees in the
summertime, making swimming a pleasure.

And it's fresh water, pure enough to drink.

After you, sir. By all means, after you.

--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

katysails wrote:

....Lake
Michigan beaches are infinitely more superior in every way...and we don't
have big old dead sheephead washing up all over the beach, either.

Ever been to Gary? Might change your mind...


--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Walt asked: Ever been to Gary? Might change your mind...

Gary is far to the south of us...except for the air pollution, the water
part goes down the Mississippi to visit Joe....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

God--a mistake
 

"Vito" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote
There arises in all of us, of any culture, universal feelings of right and
wrong.

Wrong! There is no *universal* feeling of right and wrong.

Yes there is. It is often overridden by many things. But it is there.

You believe there
is because you are ignorant of other cultures but the very notion that there
is "right" and "wrong" is the poison of Eve's Apple.

BS

Is it OK for me to
murder you and your family? It is if I'm a radical Muslim and you're a
heretic who believes in democracy and thinks men should make laws instead of
obeying the god-given sharia (sp?).

Whatever, If you did your just suckin up to your radical Muslim
friends, not following your sence of whats right or wrong.

The Taliban executed women for learning
to read, believing they followed YHWH's orders. It's also OK if you're a bit
odd. After all the "good" people of Salem who executed people for witchcraft
were fighting evil and, like serial killers and child molesters, show no
remorse. Are Michael Jackson's relations with young boys good or bad? Nazis
thought they were doing "the right thing" and, as we speak, Israel is doing
the same "right thing" to the indigineous Palistinians.

Yelp...... the way people act sometimes is sick. And I think they
know what they are doing in most cases. Take out all the politics,
overriding hate, revenge and the mental cases and talk to the average
earthling you will find most people know what is right and wrong and
act decent.

Where did we get this sense of wrongness Blobster?

From parents and peers whilst growing up from infanthood, Joe. That's why no
sense of wrongness agrees.

degree of wrongness ?


1000s doomed to die of diabetes and heart disease, or to
live out their lives as parapheligics just because some idiots sense of
wrongness says stem cell research is evil.

Politics. I have no ideal if its right or wrong. Guess that has to do
with how
the get the stem cell. If you can get them without harm, then its
great.

So much for your god-given sense of right and wrong.

There is a documentary movie named "Marjo" that you really should see.

Seen it, I liked Elmer Gantry better.

Joe

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

On Thu, 20 May 2004 22:28:35 -0400, "katysails"
wrote this crap:

Walt declared: You're even more delusional than I thought

Absolutely. The sand on the beaches down by Sandusky is dark and looks more
like road grade sand than beach sand...On the other hand, our sand on Lake
Michigan is pristine and white and has a very fine grain comparably....Lake
Michigan beaches are infinitely more superior in every way...and we don't
have big old dead sheephead washing up all over the beach, either.


The water in Lake Michigan is cold.




Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

On Fri, 21 May 2004 14:36:27 -0400, Walt
wrote this crap:

Horvath wrote:

Lake Erie is the Southernmost, and warmest of the Great Lakes. There
are some nice beaches on Lake Superior, but you can't swim there. The
water temperature at my end of Lake Erie exceeds 80 degrees in the
summertime, making swimming a pleasure.

And it's fresh water, pure enough to drink.

After you, sir. By all means, after you.

I drink it every day. All our city water comes from Lake Erie.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Navigator" wrote in message
...


Donal wrote:

3) It was created in a single event which resulted in equal amounts of
"matter" and "anti-matter".

Which option do you believe in?

None of the above. I'm partial to evidence for the idea that expansion
of the universe is accelerating.



Isn't that covered by No. 3?



Regards


Donal
--

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Hirvath shivered:
The water in Lake Michigan is cold.

What are you? A petunia that shrivels from a little chill? Heck, Michigan
is cold, comparatively, to most everywhere....what's your point? Warm,
shallow water breeds ugly things....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

The definition doesn't mention *seeking* an answer. There's a difference
between actively looking for something, and being willing to consider new
ideas or evidence.

But what evidence could there ever be of God? By the very definition and idea
of God, we have to assume that all matter and consciousness is made from God,
becuase God is the only thing that can actually exist. If that is the case,
then looking for the evidence of God is the ultimate
missing-the-forest-for-the-trees, yes/no?

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

YES!! You're right! These "documents" can change one into an irrelevent
figure!


Jesus Christ was irrelevant? Jesus Christ is a character in the Gospels. He may
have actually existed in history, but what really matters is that he is a
symbol for our "higher self." He was what we are supposed to be. His mission
was different than yours or mine, but we all have missions, and we are all
supposed to be Christ.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Ah. I think that's a handicap most of us could live with [being rich].


It kills you.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

So I take it you hate your family.

Jesus considered only one kind of relationship to be real--the oneness of God.
If I am God and my wife is God, then we are one. If I prefer to consider her
seperate from me "a wife" Then I actually hate her (that is, I work for our
separation). If I love her for real, then we are one, and that is the
equivalent of hating her as my wife--Therefore, in truth, I hate my wife
because I believe we are one, not two. That particular teaching of Christ is
difficult to understand and requires an entirely different mental paradigm
regarding relationships, love and hate.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

EdGordonRN wrote:

By the very definition
and idea of God, we have to assume that all matter and consciousness
is made from God, becuase God is the only thing that can actually
exist.

You can't define god into existence.


--
Wally
www.forthsailing.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Wally asked: the ultimate
missing-the-forest-for-the-trees, yes/no?

Yes, but you'll never get some here to understand that and it just becomes
an argument....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Wally asked: the ultimate
missing-the-forest-for-the-trees, yes/no?

Yes, but you'll never get some here to understand that and it just becomes
an argument....

Perfect example of the scary unthinking refuge taken by the religious. It is
not benign because it's part of the greatest effort to control people ever
invented. It's sub-charters are behind the most horrific acts in history.
Can't see the forest for the trees? Yeah, okay.

RB