Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Unknown???.... that can be held to be "God like" at times......

I'm not preaching a philosophy Wally..... I don't know if there is a
superior being... I know there is a superior force. It envelops me and if I
allow it.... guides me as well. I'm only learning it's boundaries.... is it
"God"?? I don't know..... I do know it protects me if I pay attention and
read it correctly. I believe the tenants are basic..... do no harm, take
only what you require, explore your potential, Life is a gift.... have fun
with it!

Nothing serious.... unless you stray from the path. Then it becomes
exponential in travesty

I walked that line.... it's much easier to follow your natural instincts!

CM



"Wally" wrote in message
...
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
|
| Wally..... I know for a fact that everytime you create any art.....
| it's proof that a "God" exists.
|
| I think it all rather depends on what one means by "god". Having suggested
| that the true nature of the universe is unknown, I could say that "god" is
| just another word for "whatever is really going on - the hidden
machinations
| of the universe". Personally, I don't feel a need to call that god - I
| prefer to call the wonder of the universe, the wonder of the universe. To
| me, there are meanings for the word "god" that have a bunch of
connotations
| that I don't particularly agree with, like the all-seeing, all-powerful,
| good guy creator - like some sort of super-human father figure. That stuff
| steps a little too far towards man making god in his own image.
|
|
| You know that as well as I do...... don't dissect.... direct. The
| whole of the entity is within you... not without you.
|
| I have never considered creating art to have anything to do with god. I
will
| say that my best efforts (in music rather than painting) happen when there
| is no thought or plan. There have been times when I've been so involved in
| listening and responding to a piece of music, that I've been completely
| unaware that I was playing it while I was listening. I'm a conduit - the
| tunes I 'write' are already there, and all I'm doing is making them
| tangible. As for where or what 'there' is, I prefer 'unknown' to 'god'.
|
|
| --
| Wally
| www.forthsailing.com
| www.wally.myby.co.uk
|
|

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

........that's what I like about you Wally.... your capacity to comprehend
the basic tenants of life!
Enjoy it man.... don't waste even a second on regret..... !!!!!!
;-)

CM

"Wally" wrote in message
...
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
|
| 1. Nuclear radiation is fatal.
|
| Life is Fatal.....
|
| It sure is. The only fact of life is death.
|
|
| --
| Wally
| www.forthsailing.com
| www.wally.myby.co.uk
|
|

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Wally" wrote in message

| No, I make a piece of art. The idea that creation of art is an argument
for
| the existence of god assumes that god has something to do with the
creation
| of art in the first place - it doesn't argue for his existence, it
| presupposes it. I'm sorry, but I just don't think like that. I prefer to
| understand it in terms of what's *given* - I engage in the creative
process,
| and something 'artistic' results.

Wally... you are being defensive... I did not say that any of your creative
processes were god like...... although that may be assumed by an arrogant
twist of reason..... only that the fact you can create anything lends
credence to a guiding force.


|
|
| ...
| You cannot in good conscience experience all that I have and state
| that there is no higher guiding spiritual force at work!!! ...
|
| With respect, you have no idea what I've experienced other than what I've
| divulged here (and elsewhere online).

Wally...... you have divulged far more than you expected simply by posting
here....


I think the world/universe is a
| wonderful, fabulous thing, but I prefer to not postulate an entity or
force
| that is 'guiding' or 'spiritual to account for it, or my experience of it.
| Too worldly.

Yes.... it's a scary place isn't it! ;-)

Amazingly though..... I hold no fear of it...... only awe!

As an artist.... don't you feel compelled to explore the boundaries???......
and do you allow your current viewpoint to tarnish or subduct that ability
to engage in that exploration?

CM

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Wally..... you make an argument for the existence of a God every time
| you create art.
|
| Creativity is how god came to be...out of the mind and imagination...and
fears
| of man.

Which God? What Man?

CM

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

No, I make a piece of art. The idea that creation of art is an
argument for the existence of god assumes that god has something to
do with the creation of art in the first place - it doesn't argue
for his existence, it presupposes it. I'm sorry, but I just don't
think like that. I prefer to understand it in terms of what's
*given* - I engage in the creative process, and something 'artistic'
results.

Wally... you are being defensive...

How am I?


I did not say that any of your
creative processes were god like......

I didn't say you did. I said that your argument is flawed because it
presupposes something whose existence it supposedly substantiates - it begs
the question.


only that the fact you can
create anything lends credence to a guiding force.

I disagree. I'm pragmatic about creating art. It happens. I don't feel a
need to invent something to explain how it happens - because I don't feel a
need to explain how it happens. Call it a talent, something I have a knack
for. I do it because I enjoy the doing of it and because I like what I
create.


With respect, you have no idea what I've experienced other than what
I've divulged here (and elsewhere online).

Wally...... you have divulged far more than you expected simply by
posting here....

Such as?


I think the world/universe is a
wonderful, fabulous thing, but I prefer to not postulate an entity
or force that is 'guiding' or 'spiritual to account for it, or my
experience of it. Too worldly.

Yes.... it's a scary place isn't it! ;-) ...

Not really.


As an artist.... don't you feel compelled to explore the
boundaries???...... and do you allow your current viewpoint to
tarnish or subduct that ability to engage in that exploration?

What boundaries?


--
Wally
www.forthsailing.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

I try not to be arrogant unless I'm also right.

That's simply defeatist.... be arrogant when you are wrong..... make
the buggers work for their victory! ;-D

Your strategic advice is duly noted. ;-)

starts reading through Neal's old posts...


--
Wally
www.forthsailing.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

.......that's what I like about you Wally.... your capacity to
comprehend the basic tenants of life!
Enjoy it man.... don't waste even a second on regret..... !!!!!!
;-)

Damn tootin' right! I'm off sailing soon - couple of hours cruising,
followed by a round-the-cans no-spinnaker race at the club. We're not
contesting the series, but maybe we can be a joker in the pack for those
that are... ;-)

Enjoy yours, too!


--
Wally
www.forthsailing.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
....
I didn't say you did. I said that your argument is flawed because it
presupposes something whose existence it supposedly substantiates - it begs
the question.

I like to see someone use that expression in its original meaning.



only that the fact you can
create anything lends credence to a guiding force.

I disagree. I'm pragmatic about creating art. It happens. I don't feel a
need to invent something to explain how it happens - because I don't feel a
need to explain how it happens. Call it a talent, something I have a knack
for. I do it because I enjoy the doing of it and because I like what I
create.


Actually, I think the real "gift" is the ability to appreciate beauty. Given
that as a basic human trait, it only follows that some would be better then
others at creating it. However, that still falls far short as a scientific
proof.

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

| Pretty basic and the 1st thing I learned when studying the subject.

You didn't learn anything......

I notice that you don't make any points, only state that mine are wrong. I also
notice that you don't seem to know what the study of "plate movement" is
called. I'm sure you'll now look it up.
A bit to late. Me think you're exposed...and quite easily. A poor job, Mooron.
You get a C, but that's mostly pity.

RB

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Horvath" wrote

I think wearing the underwear I bought at Victoria's Secret
will warm you up.






Pathetic Ohio! No one can save you now!

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

I used to enjoy travelling the USA.... I don't even bother now.... it's
just
way too problematic.


what problems, specifically?

SV

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote

BTW - what exactly is "our current state"????

PA, for me.

SV

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote
|
| BTW - what exactly is "our current state"????
|
| PA, for me.

Oddly enough mine was Drunk last night.... but somehow I find myself in the
sorry state of Hangover today.

CM

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
|
| I used to enjoy travelling the USA.... I don't even bother now.... it's
| just
| way too problematic.
|
|
| what problems, specifically?


Security, border crossings, visas, yellow and orange alert status
changes..... plus gas is going to a $1.50 a liter here.


A lot of Canadians don't really feel welcomed there anymore..... may as
well vacation in Canada at this point. A lot of folks are by-passing flights
that have a stop-over in the USA enroute to the Caribbean or Mexico...
opting for either direct flights or stop-overs in other countries to avoid
the hassle of USA customs clearance.

CM

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrot
|
| I used to enjoy travelling the USA.... I don't even bother now....
it's
| just
| way too problematic.
|
|
| what problems, specifically?


Security, border crossings, visas, yellow and orange alert status
changes..... plus gas is going to a $1.50 a liter here.


A lot of Canadians don't really feel welcomed there anymore..... may as
well vacation in Canada at this point. A lot of folks are by-passing
flights
that have a stop-over in the USA enroute to the Caribbean or Mexico...
opting for either direct flights or stop-overs in other countries to avoid
the hassle of USA customs clearance.



none of these affect real Americans

SV

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message

| none of these affect real Americans

I should hope not...... unless you're an American Muslim or of Arabic
descent.

CM

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

I agree, hence the word ''real'' . Besides being anti Jew, Muslim, and
Arabic, are there any other groups you hate?

SV

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message

| none of these affect real Americans

I should hope not...... unless you're an American Muslim or of Arabic
descent.

CM

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
| I agree, hence the word ''real'' . Besides being anti Jew, Muslim, and
| Arabic, are there any other groups you hate?

Government Bureaucrats..... politicians, club racers, self righteous
homos, menopausal bull dykes, dog catchers, By-Law enforcement officers who
are "just doing their job", those people that phone you at dinner time for
yet another poll, the slugs in my lettuce patch, and the French! But
everyone hates the French!

Oh Yeah.... I almost forgot about those Canucks that post on newsgroups in
a blatant attempt to pick on intellectually inferior Americans for no other
reason than to drive them into a rage. I think Loco hates those people
too!.... ;-)

CM

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

In article , Capt. Mooron
wrote:

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
| Nope, he can't! Great job, Joe!

Oh Good Grief.... I can't be bothered reading the entire debate...... so
I'll just side with the Lady Pilot on this one! ;-D

Damn this bunk is darned chilly........ not meaning to change the
subject, but I understand one can at times.... get something soft, silken
and feminine to help warm the berth. Man would that be choice!

If it floats, flys or f**ks, rent - don't buy. Exponential rule applies
for combined activities......

PDW

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

In article , Scott Vernon
wrote:

I agree, hence the word ''real'' . Besides being anti Jew, Muslim, and
Arabic, are there any other groups you hate?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. *You* are the guys who interned the Nisei
Japanese in WW2 and confiscated their property, in violation of your
own vaunted constitution. From my generally pro-USA POV here in
Australia, looks like you're engaging in a rerun. Feel free to nurse
your hypocrisy and project your biased definitions of what constitutes
a 'real' American, it's pretty funny from here.

PDW

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
| Nope, he can't! Great job, Joe!

Oh Good Grief.... I can't be bothered reading the entire debate...... so
I'll just side with the Lady Pilot on this one! ;-D

Damn this bunk is darned chilly........ not meaning to change the
subject, but I understand one can at times.... get something soft, silken
and feminine to help warm the berth. Man would that be choice!

Oh well....


You want a feminine man of choice?

YIKES

:P

Cheers

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Jeff Morris wrote:

... it begs the question.

I like to see someone use that expression in its original meaning.

I wasn't aware that there was another.


I disagree. I'm pragmatic about creating art. It happens. I don't
feel a need to invent something to explain how it happens - because
I don't feel a need to explain how it happens. Call it a talent,
something I have a knack for. I do it because I enjoy the doing of
it and because I like what I create.

Actually, I think the real "gift" is the ability to appreciate
beauty.

Almost everyone can appreciate beauty of one form or another. Maybe the
artist's gift is the ability to imagine it and express it.


--
Wally
www.forthsailing.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

OK, I guess you won't have to pay reparations then.

BTW, is Bob**** Michael Moore's online persona? They're both fat
assholes with inflated opinions of self worth, lie through their teeth
and AFAIK never sail......

PDW

In article , Scott Vernon
wrote:

I had nothing to do with that, Pete.

SV


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Scott Vernon
wrote:

I agree, hence the word ''real'' . Besides being anti Jew, Muslim,
and
Arabic, are there any other groups you hate?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. *You* are the guys who interned the Nisei
Japanese in WW2 and confiscated their property, in violation of your
own vaunted constitution. From my generally pro-USA POV here in
Australia, looks like you're engaging in a rerun. Feel free to nurse
your hypocrisy and project your biased definitions of what constitutes
a 'real' American, it's pretty funny from here.

PDW

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

I had nothing to do with that, Pete.

SV


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Scott Vernon
wrote:

I agree, hence the word ''real'' . Besides being anti Jew, Muslim,
and
Arabic, are there any other groups you hate?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. *You* are the guys who interned the Nisei
Japanese in WW2 and confiscated their property, in violation of your
own vaunted constitution. From my generally pro-USA POV here in
Australia, looks like you're engaging in a rerun. Feel free to nurse
your hypocrisy and project your biased definitions of what constitutes
a 'real' American, it's pretty funny from here.

PDW

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:
Bob.... admit it.... you've never read the bible. I have.... it's drudge and
the plot line varies throughout.

If you think the Bible is "drudge" then I don't see how you can have
read it. It's shocking... war & rape & cutting off heads etc etc... some
incredible stories in there. Of course the plot line varies but then it
was written by hundreds of different people from different cultures over
a couple thousand years, what d'you expect?

The problem I have with the Bible is 1- it doesn't say what most people
seem to think it does and 2- it's used as an excuse for the most
outrageous hypocrisy & self-righteous bull****. But that's not the
book's fault, really.

DSK

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Mooron siad: I know Silk Jon...... I Earned Silk! Silk feels wonderful!


You can get silk longjohns at Landsend....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Those are for my birthday in June! g

You're a Gemini, too?

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message

| 1) God created it.
| 2) It is endlessly expanding and contracting
| 3) It was created in a single event which resulted in equal amounts of
| "matter" and "anti-matter".

You're guessing aren't you....??? ;-)


I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I might incriminate
myself!

Furthermore, a straight answer might make Jeff feel like a complete idiot.


Regards


Donal
--

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
| Correct! I am arrogant.
|
| You are a bit arrogant too, aren't you?

I always thought that was a positive character trait..... ;-)


Where would alt.sailing.asa be without it?



Regards


Donal
--

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message

| If you want to disagree with me, then you should have the balls to put
| forward your own beliefs.

I believe in the wind..... I believe in the scent of frangipani on a
tropical night.... I believe I can lift that damned boulder if I just
apply
more effort.... I believe you should not take more than you can use.... I
believe everyone will act in a just and honest manner if given the
opportunity to do so.... I believe in the innocence and freedom of
children... I believe in the right of free expression... I believe bears
really do like honey.... I believe it's beyond the bee's ability to
understand why they do.


You should write poetry ....



Regards


Donal
--

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

At least moore has a job.


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
OK, I guess you won't have to pay reparations then.

BTW, is Bob**** Michael Moore's online persona? They're both fat
assholes with inflated opinions of self worth, lie through their teeth
and AFAIK never sail......

PDW

In article , Scott Vernon
wrote:

I had nothing to do with that, Pete.

SV


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Scott Vernon
wrote:

I agree, hence the word ''real'' . Besides being anti Jew,
Muslim,
and
Arabic, are there any other groups you hate?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. *You* are the guys who interned the Nisei
Japanese in WW2 and confiscated their property, in violation of your
own vaunted constitution. From my generally pro-USA POV here in
Australia, looks like you're engaging in a rerun. Feel free to nurse
your hypocrisy and project your biased definitions of what constitutes
a 'real' American, it's pretty funny from here.

PDW

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:

Why do you place the onus on the believers? Are you suggesting that
the non-believers should be given the benefit of the doubt?

What on earth are you slavering about? He who makes the claim has to back
it
up. If I claim that the moon is made of green cheese, is the onus on you
to
run around trying to disprove it, or would it be valid for you to respond
with something like, "Yeah, sure it is, Wally - prove it!"? If I claim
that
Captain Crunch sails a ship made of cornflakes on an ocean of milk, is the
onus on you to painstakingly search the entire universe, draw a blank, and
thereby disprove my assertion??

You say god made made the universe?

Prove it!


Why should non-believers be given more credence than believers?

Get a clue, Donal - you're out of your depth.


I think that it is very strange that you will not give any scientific
evidence to back up your position. I've repeatedly given evidence to
support my views.

You don't seem to understand that my position is the opposite, in its very
nature, of yours. I'm not making a specific claim that might stand to be
substantiated by evidence. I'm making no claim about the origin of the
universe, and I'm not invoking some imaginary creator. What I'm doing is
critiquing our knowledge system, and thereby critiquing such outlandish
claims as those we have seen in this thread regarding the supposed origins
of the universe. I'm right outside of your box, Donal, and your desire for
me to 'present evidence' tells me that you still haven't noticed.

I'm saying is that the evidence presented by those who seek to state how
the
universe came to be is woefully inadequate. Once again, if not for the
world, then at least for you, I argue my case thus...

From the observations that mankind has made so far, the universe is
mind-bogglingly huge and exceedingly old. We can make highly detailed
observations of it, and draw incredibly accurate inferences concerning its
causal nature. However, we can only resolve to this sort of detail in a
very
local area - Earth and its environs, basically. The rest of it is little
more than a bunch of dots in the sky. We're also attempting to extrapolate
a
life cycle of this most ancient of entities, supposedly billions of years,
from a ridiculously small timeslice of - what - a couple of centuries?
What
mankind is essentially doing is observing a speck of dust for a second,
and
trying to describe what has happened on the whole planet for a year.

Ultimately, the data that we have, compared with the data that we think is
still out there, is laughably small - it's statistically insignificant.
And
here's the best bit - because we haven't actually observed the data that
we
haven't availed ourselves of yet, we don't even know how much there
actually
is!

In terms of the constructs of our own knowledge system - empricism - we
are
damn-near absolutely clueless!

To sit here on our silly little speck of dust for a whole second, and then
try to state categorically - to draw an "inescapable conclusion" with
regard
to - how the universe came to exist is stupefyingly pointless. Not only do
we know next to bugger all, we don't even know if we really *do* know next
to bugger all!


Wally, on reflection, your post deserves a serious answer.
So here goes....

You seem to be suggesting that we know so little about our environment that
we shouldn't even bother to seek answers.

Let me quote you.
" Ultimately, the data that we have, compared with the data that we think
is
still out there, is laughably small - it's statistically insignificant. "

Then you say :-
" To sit here on our silly little speck of dust for a whole second, and
then
try to state categorically - to draw an "inescapable conclusion" with
regard
to - how the universe came to exist is stupefyingly pointless"

If we all agreed with with your reasoning, then we would be still stuck in
the dark ages. We would not engage in any scientific research because the
task (gap in our knowledge) was so huge.

You depend on the innovations of scientists in your daily life. In fact,
without modern technologly, it is quite possible that you would not be able
to indulge in your passion for art! Modern technology creates the wealth
that allows people to have the disposable income to afford your "art".


Regards


Donal
--

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:

Why do you place the onus on the believers? Are you suggesting that
the non-believers should be given the benefit of the doubt?

What on earth are you slavering about? He who makes the claim has to back
it
up. If I claim that the moon is made of green cheese, is the onus on you
to
run around trying to disprove it, or would it be valid for you to respond
with something like, "Yeah, sure it is, Wally - prove it!"? If I claim
that
Captain Crunch sails a ship made of cornflakes on an ocean of milk, is the
onus on you to painstakingly search the entire universe, draw a blank, and
thereby disprove my assertion??

You say god made made the universe?

Prove it!


Why should non-believers be given more credence than believers?

Get a clue, Donal - you're out of your depth.


I think that it is very strange that you will not give any scientific
evidence to back up your position. I've repeatedly given evidence to
support my views.

You don't seem to understand that my position is the opposite, in its very
nature, of yours. I'm not making a specific claim that might stand to be
substantiated by evidence. I'm making no claim about the origin of the
universe, and I'm not invoking some imaginary creator. What I'm doing is
critiquing our knowledge system, and thereby critiquing such outlandish
claims as those we have seen in this thread regarding the supposed origins
of the universe. I'm right outside of your box, Donal, and your desire for
me to 'present evidence' tells me that you still haven't noticed.

I'm saying is that the evidence presented by those who seek to state how
the
universe came to be is woefully inadequate. Once again, if not for the
world, then at least for you, I argue my case thus...

From the observations that mankind has made so far, the universe is
mind-bogglingly huge and exceedingly old. We can make highly detailed
observations of it, and draw incredibly accurate inferences concerning its
causal nature. However, we can only resolve to this sort of detail in a
very
local area - Earth and its environs, basically. The rest of it is little
more than a bunch of dots in the sky. We're also attempting to extrapolate
a
life cycle of this most ancient of entities, supposedly billions of years,
from a ridiculously small timeslice of - what - a couple of centuries?
What
mankind is essentially doing is observing a speck of dust for a second,
and
trying to describe what has happened on the whole planet for a year.

Ultimately, the data that we have, compared with the data that we think is
still out there, is laughably small - it's statistically insignificant.
And
here's the best bit - because we haven't actually observed the data that
we
haven't availed ourselves of yet, we don't even know how much there
actually
is!

In terms of the constructs of our own knowledge system - empricism - we
are
damn-near absolutely clueless!

To sit here on our silly little speck of dust for a whole second, and then
try to state categorically - to draw an "inescapable conclusion" with
regard
to - how the universe came to exist is stupefyingly pointless. Not only do
we know next to bugger all, we don't even know if we really *do* know next
to bugger all!


Wally, on reflection, your post deserves a serious answer.
So here goes....

You seem to be suggesting that we know so little about our environment that
we shouldn't even bother to seek answers.

Let me quote you.
" Ultimately, the data that we have, compared with the data that we think
is
still out there, is laughably small - it's statistically insignificant. "

Then you say :-
" To sit here on our silly little speck of dust for a whole second, and
then
try to state categorically - to draw an "inescapable conclusion" with
regard
to - how the universe came to exist is stupefyingly pointless"

If we all agreed with with your reasoning, then we would be still stuck in
the dark ages. We would not engage in any scientific research because the
task (gap in our knowledge) was so huge.

You depend on the innovations of scientists in your daily life. In fact,
without modern technologly, it is quite possible that you would not be able
to indulge in your passion for art! Modern technology creates the wealth
that allows people to have the disposable income to afford your "art".


Regards


Donal
--

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:

Why do you place the onus on the believers? Are you suggesting that
the non-believers should be given the benefit of the doubt?

What on earth are you slavering about? He who makes the claim has to back
it
up. If I claim that the moon is made of green cheese, is the onus on you
to
run around trying to disprove it, or would it be valid for you to respond
with something like, "Yeah, sure it is, Wally - prove it!"? If I claim
that
Captain Crunch sails a ship made of cornflakes on an ocean of milk, is the
onus on you to painstakingly search the entire universe, draw a blank, and
thereby disprove my assertion??

You say god made made the universe?

Prove it!


Why should non-believers be given more credence than believers?

Get a clue, Donal - you're out of your depth.


I think that it is very strange that you will not give any scientific
evidence to back up your position. I've repeatedly given evidence to
support my views.

You don't seem to understand that my position is the opposite, in its very
nature, of yours. I'm not making a specific claim that might stand to be
substantiated by evidence. I'm making no claim about the origin of the
universe, and I'm not invoking some imaginary creator. What I'm doing is
critiquing our knowledge system, and thereby critiquing such outlandish
claims as those we have seen in this thread regarding the supposed origins
of the universe. I'm right outside of your box, Donal, and your desire for
me to 'present evidence' tells me that you still haven't noticed.

I'm saying is that the evidence presented by those who seek to state how
the
universe came to be is woefully inadequate. Once again, if not for the
world, then at least for you, I argue my case thus...

From the observations that mankind has made so far, the universe is
mind-bogglingly huge and exceedingly old. We can make highly detailed
observations of it, and draw incredibly accurate inferences concerning its
causal nature. However, we can only resolve to this sort of detail in a
very
local area - Earth and its environs, basically. The rest of it is little
more than a bunch of dots in the sky. We're also attempting to extrapolate
a
life cycle of this most ancient of entities, supposedly billions of years,
from a ridiculously small timeslice of - what - a couple of centuries?
What
mankind is essentially doing is observing a speck of dust for a second,
and
trying to describe what has happened on the whole planet for a year.

Ultimately, the data that we have, compared with the data that we think is
still out there, is laughably small - it's statistically insignificant.
And
here's the best bit - because we haven't actually observed the data that
we
haven't availed ourselves of yet, we don't even know how much there
actually
is!

In terms of the constructs of our own knowledge system - empricism - we
are
damn-near absolutely clueless!

To sit here on our silly little speck of dust for a whole second, and then
try to state categorically - to draw an "inescapable conclusion" with
regard
to - how the universe came to exist is stupefyingly pointless. Not only do
we know next to bugger all, we don't even know if we really *do* know next
to bugger all!


Wally, on reflection, your post deserves a serious answer.
So here goes....

You seem to be suggesting that we know so little about our environment that
we shouldn't even bother to seek answers.

Let me quote you.
" Ultimately, the data that we have, compared with the data that we think
is
still out there, is laughably small - it's statistically insignificant. "

Then you say :-
" To sit here on our silly little speck of dust for a whole second, and
then
try to state categorically - to draw an "inescapable conclusion" with
regard
to - how the universe came to exist is stupefyingly pointless"

If we all agreed with with your reasoning, then we would be still stuck in
the dark ages. We would not engage in any scientific research because the
task (gap in our knowledge) was so huge.

You depend on the innovations of scientists in your daily life. In fact,
without modern technologly, it is quite possible that you would not be able
to indulge in your passion for art! Modern technology creates the wealth
that allows people to have the disposable income to afford your "art".


Regards


Donal
--

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

Donal wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that we know so little about our
environment that we shouldn't even bother to seek answers.

Let me quote you.
"Ultimately, the data that we have, compared with the data that we
think is still out there, is laughably small - it's statistically
insignificant. "

This has nothing to do with whether or not we should try to get more data -
it's a statement about our *present* dataset.


Then you say :-
"To sit here on our silly little speck of dust for a whole second,
and then try to state categorically - to draw an "inescapable
conclusion" with regard to - how the universe came to exist is
stupefyingly pointless"

Again, this has nothing to do with whether or not we should try to get more
data.


If we all agreed with with your reasoning, then we would be still
stuck in the dark ages. We would not engage in any scientific
research because the task (gap in our knowledge) was so huge.

Your assessment that I have suggested that we shouldn't try to acquire more
data is incorrect.


You depend on the innovations of scientists in your daily life. In
fact, without modern technologly, it is quite possible that you would
not be able to indulge in your passion for art! Modern technology
creates the wealth that allows people to have the disposable income
to afford your "art".

Ignoratio elenchi. You're arguing against something I didn't say. My
critique was concerned with what we do with our present dataset (make
outlandish claims about the universe). At no point did I advocate that we
don't try to expand our dataset - in fact, I don't think I even raised the
issue.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

In article , Wally
wrote:

Donal wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that we know so little about our
environment that we shouldn't even bother to seek answers.

Let me quote you.
"Ultimately, the data that we have, compared with the data that we
think is still out there, is laughably small - it's statistically
insignificant. "

This has nothing to do with whether or not we should try to get more data -
it's a statement about our *present* dataset.


Then you say :-
"To sit here on our silly little speck of dust for a whole second,
and then try to state categorically - to draw an "inescapable
conclusion" with regard to - how the universe came to exist is
stupefyingly pointless"

Again, this has nothing to do with whether or not we should try to get more
data.


If we all agreed with with your reasoning, then we would be still
stuck in the dark ages. We would not engage in any scientific
research because the task (gap in our knowledge) was so huge.

Your assessment that I have suggested that we shouldn't try to acquire more
data is incorrect.


You depend on the innovations of scientists in your daily life. In
fact, without modern technologly, it is quite possible that you would
not be able to indulge in your passion for art! Modern technology
creates the wealth that allows people to have the disposable income
to afford your "art".

Ignoratio elenchi. You're arguing against something I didn't say. My
critique was concerned with what we do with our present dataset (make
outlandish claims about the universe). At no point did I advocate that we
don't try to expand our dataset - in fact, I don't think I even raised the
issue.

Donal's desperately trying to drag a red herring across the thread.

PDW

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Donal" wrote in message
...
Wally, on reflection, your post deserves a serious answer.
So here goes....

You seem to be suggesting that we know so little about our environment that
we shouldn't even bother to seek answers.

I don't see how you could possible draw that conclusion. In fact, his argument
was quite the opposite.



Let me quote you.
" Ultimately, the data that we have, compared with the data that we think
is
still out there, is laughably small - it's statistically insignificant. "

Then you say :-
" To sit here on our silly little speck of dust for a whole second, and
then
try to state categorically - to draw an "inescapable conclusion" with
regard
to - how the universe came to exist is stupefyingly pointless"

If we all agreed with with your reasoning, then we would be still stuck in
the dark ages. We would not engage in any scientific research because the
task (gap in our knowledge) was so huge.

Why do you say that? Do you only work on problems where the solution is
trivial? I suppose that might be the case: you triviallized all of evolution
by simply saying, "I thought about it, and it doesn't work."

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

I suppose that might be the case: you triviallized all of evolution
by simply saying, "I thought about it, and it doesn't work."

Consider that he also thought about buying a sailboat AFTER owning a
powerboat....and bought a Beneteau.

RB

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message |
| We know time travel is possiable if we can go faster than light.

No Joe... we definitely don't "Know" that.......

|
| Physics 101 boobsie, did you skip class?

Bob probably didn't finish high school.... neither did I!

So what, Neither did I. at 16 9th or 10th grade I joined the US Navy.
Like you I was bored to death.


Don't base your assumptions of intellect on the schooling offered in your
country.... it's been proven to be very unreliable.

No kidding.



I'm more than willing to discuss any topic with you Joe.... I have a grade 9
education. Do you think I'm stupid?

Never said you were, my comment was to boobpimp.

I just passed an interview described by
my peers who failed it as a grueling 45 minute interrogation.... I was
accepted and awarded the position in 15 minutes. They have diplomas inn
Engineering..... I have only field experience and am self taught.

Thats great, many corporations will not even talk to you without a
degree.


I agree 100%. Daily I work with some of the countrys leading
engineers. I own a recruiting firm and place them with many of the
USA's fortune 500 companies.

I've learned that many times a Phd stands for Piled higher and deeper,
some are total idiots.


I believe intelligence is measured by ones willingness to assimilate data
and process that information in a logical manner..... not by degrees issued
by institutions.

BTW - I had to go to summer school to pass grade 9.... ;-) Barely made the
grade... it bored the heck out of me.

Well while you were in summer school I was sailing the pacific,
focused so much on sea skills that I became the youngest 1000 ton
freight and towing master in the USA at the time.


CM

Joe

Yacht Clubs--a mistake
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


Donal's desperately trying to drag a red herring across the thread.

Peter! You must be one of the dullest persons on the planet!

What is wrong with a bit of discussion? Have you no sense of *FUN* at all?


You really need to relax a bit! .... Honestly.


Regards


Donal
--