heey, katies. way to go. dead bang on center.

Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years. Your
analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if a
product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it will
take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company might
then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the market
for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their rate of
repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you are
planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a bad
reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now quit
wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
sail.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

katysails wrote:
Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years. Your
analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if a
product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it will
take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company might
then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the market
for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their rate of
repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you are
planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a bad
reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now quit
wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
sail.

Katy, first regarding your comment that I need to go learn to sail, as
previously mentioned, I have sailed a 37-ft O'Day, 40-ft Valiant (weeks
charter), Cal 34, Cat 30 Endeavor 32, etc., etc. I'm seeking to extend
my sailing experience.

Regarding the reputation of the MacGregors, I realize that it isn't the
same type of boat as fixed keel boats such as the Valiant and the O'Day.
However, they entail certain obvious advantages for sailing in bay
areas and with respect to their ability to get to a desired sailing area
quickly, and to return quickly, and to getting through marginal channels
and limited deep water sailing areas such as we have in he Galveston bay
area. My note concerned the new model, in which the hull is
significantly different from previous models, as previously described. I
don't see news reports of hundreds of MacGregor sailors killed or
injured, actually. If someone who has actually sailed the 26M under
differing weather conditions tells me that it has minimal sailing
capability, or that it is likely to fall apart in a force three wind, or
that MacGregor owners are being routinely lost at sea because of defects
in the boat, then that information would be meaningful and relevant. But
so far I haven't seen such a report, and, from speaking with several who
have sailed it, the boat seems to be faster and more responsive and more
stable in chop under power than the previous models.

Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
seems to have several advantages. - If the lower hull is compromised,
the inner hull remains. If both hulls are compromised, or if the side
hull is penetrated as in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the
Mac afloat. By contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep
boats) is compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial
water enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant
will quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)

Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out to
the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending
weather, is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant,
there were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly
marked and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we
had to turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
the Mac for such shallow water activities.

I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
therefore be faster under sail in some conditions). However, if I can't
get out to the blue water on weekends because of the requisite hours of
motoring time it takes to get from our area to the blue water, then the
fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant wouldn't be of much benefit
to me. (With the exception of being able to talk about it on the
newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could only get out once or
twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a larger boat for
extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.

Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.

Jim

However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing

not that anyone but you can see.

Exactly.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing

not that anyone but you can see.

In our area, some of the many "obvious advantages" include the ability
to get out to good sailing waters, sail for half a day, and return to
port within a few hours. If you can only sail on weekends, that's an
"obvious advantage" over a boat that takes six hours to motor to a good
sailing area, and six hours to motor back.

Jim

JAXAshby wrote:

However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing


not that anyone but you can see.

JAXAshby wrote:

However, they (mac 26's) entail certain obvious advantages for sailing


not that anyone but you can see.

Whether or not the Valiant is a "better" boat depends on your particular
criteria, however. With respect to safety for coastal cruising, the Mac
seems to have several advantages.

(1) - If the lower hull is compromised, the inner hull remains.

(2) If both hulls are compromised, or if the side hull is penetrated as
in a collision, the integrated flotation keeps the Mac afloat. By
contrast, if the hull of the Valiant (or other keep boats) is
compromised, or if the through-hulls leak, or if substantial water
enters the boat for some other reason, the keel of the Valiant will
quickly pull it to the bottom. In this respect, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat. (Galveston-Houston has its share of drunk red-necks
racing around the bays at 60 mph while downing another six-pack.)

(3) Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots, whereas the Valiant,
while considered relatively fast, only make around 7-8 knots under
power. So, with respect to convenience, and ability to get to a
preferred sailing area within a given day or weekend, the MacGregor is a
"better" boat.

(4) The ability to return to port quickly, ahead of impending weather,
is also a safety factor in the Mac. When we sailed the Valiant, there
were several channels in the Galveston area that weren't clearly marked
and in which we could not maneuver safely at low tide. So, we had to
turn back from a preferred anchorage we were trying to reach. In
contrast, the dagger board of the MacGregor can be raised incrementally
as desired, with a minimum draft of around 18 inches. Again, with
respect to its ability to maneuver in shallow or unmarked channels, or
to anchor in shallow water, or beach on shore to permit grandkids to
play on the sand, the MacGregor is a "better" boat, since the Valiant
must be kept in much deeper water and doesn't have the versatility of
the Mac for such shallow water activities.

I have no doubt that the Valiant has better sailing characteristics,
will point higher, and would be more comfortable in heavy weather. - In
that sense, it is a "better" boat than the MacGregor (although I
understand that the MacGregor can actually plane under sail and may
therefore be faster under sail in some conditions).

(5) However, if I can't get out to the blue water on weekends because of
the requisite hours of motoring time it takes to get from our area to
the blue water, then the fine sailing characteristics of the Valiant
wouldn't be of much benefit to me. (With the exception of being able to
talk about it on the newsgroup.) Under those circumstances, if I could
only get out once or twice a year, it may make more sense to charter a
larger boat for extended cruising when I can time off for a week or so.

Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


katysails wrote:
Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years.
Your
analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if
a
product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it
will
take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company
might
then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the
market
for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their
rate of
repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you
are
planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a
bad
reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now
quit
wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
sail.

Katy, first regarding your comment that I need to go learn to sail, as
previously mentioned, I have sailed a 37-ft O'Day, 40-ft Valiant (weeks
charter), Cal 34, Cat 30 Endeavor 32, etc., etc. I'm seeking to extend
my sailing experience.

First, I'd like to point out that most of the replies have been genuine
attempts to be helpful.

Second, it doesn't really matter what boat you buy - at least for a few
years. You will probably get enjoyment from simply being "out there".





Regarding the reputation of the MacGregors, I realize that it isn't the
same type of boat as fixed keel boats such as the Valiant and the O'Day.
However, they entail certain obvious advantages for sailing in bay
areas and with respect to their ability to get to a desired sailing area
quickly, and to return quickly, and to getting through marginal channels

This is the heart of the matter.

You seem to want a sailing vessel. However, you also want to keep your
boat about 25 miles from your sailing area. If you really must keep your
boat so far from a sailing ground, then I think that you should tell us why.
Perhaps that will produce different responses from people.




Regards


Donal
--

Unless it's a mere 'stepping stone'.

SV

"Donal" wrote
Second, it doesn't really matter what boat you buy - at least for a few
years. You will probably get enjoyment from simply being "out there".

Donal wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


katysails wrote:

Jim...MacGregor's have a poor reputation. They have made some very bad
boats. Most of us here have experience sailing many different brands of
boats and have been around sailors and sailboats for years and years.

Your

analogy about intellectual honesty is bunkum. Fact of the matter is, if

a

product gets negative brand recognition because of lack of quality, it

will

take 75% more effort to convince the knowledgeable that that company

might

then, out of the blue, produce a good product. If you were in the

market

for a subcompact car, and you read the history of the Yugo, spoke with
people who had purchased Yugo's, and seen the statistics about their

rate of

repair and other problems, would you then include Yugo in the cars you

are

planning to test drive? I think not. Time is money, and wating time is
wasting money. Yes, there are flukes...once in a while a company with a

bad

reputation comes up with a single good item...Hunter comes to mind
here...but for the most part, Hunter's are crap, and that is based on
comparison of facts. macGregor's , for the most part, are crap. Now

quit

wasting everyone's time with your specious arguments and go learn how to
sail.


Katy, first regarding your comment that I need to go learn to sail, as
previously mentioned, I have sailed a 37-ft O'Day, 40-ft Valiant (weeks
charter), Cal 34, Cat 30 Endeavor 32, etc., etc. I'm seeking to extend
my sailing experience.


First, I'd like to point out that most of the replies have been genuine
attempts to be helpful.

Second, it doesn't really matter what boat you buy - at least for a few
years. You will probably get enjoyment from simply being "out there".





Regarding the reputation of the MacGregors, I realize that it isn't the
same type of boat as fixed keel boats such as the Valiant and the O'Day.
However, they entail certain obvious advantages for sailing in bay
areas and with respect to their ability to get to a desired sailing area
quickly, and to return quickly, and to getting through marginal channels


This is the heart of the matter.

You seem to want a sailing vessel. However, you also want to keep your
boat about 25 miles from your sailing area. If you really must keep your
boat so far from a sailing ground, then I think that you should tell us why.
Perhaps that will produce different responses from people.

Regards

Donal
_______________________________

You asked why I wanted to keep the boat 25 miles from the sailing area.
What I meant was that it is 25 miles from the blue water sailing areas
in the Gulf, that I prefer. In our region, 95% of the marinas and slips
are in the Kemah-Seabrook area, located between Houston and Galveston.
I think the reason most people leave their boats here is that it is
some distance inland and considered safer from hurricanes and other
weather issues. There is a large bay near here in which we can sail for
the afternoon. As mentioned below, I recently placed an order for one
of the Mac 26M's. When it's delivered, I'll be able to motor down to
Galveston and to the offshore blue water in about two hours. Or, I can
tow the boat down to various points on the coast and launch it there. -
I'll try several sailing areas and see how they compare and report back
to the group.

Jim

Jim stated:
Again, an evaluation of the quality of the boat depends on the criteria
used in the evaluation, and how the boat will be used.

So the MacGregor obviously fits OYUR criteria...go buy one, but don't come
whining back here...but then, maybe you're like Horvath with his blind love
of Hunter's....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein