I'm in the process of getting a class together for some
of the more experienced students. One of the questions
that seems to come up from time to time is how to
anchor on the bay.

Anchoring out here is pretty simple, since bay mud is
pretty sticky. Assuming you even get close to the right
scope, it hardly ever a problem (with some caveats about
distance to shore and the occasional rock outcroping).
However, several people are interested in learning about
other anchoring techniques. The two that seem to come
up the most are two bow anchors and mooring-ball-bow/stern
anchor.

Up until now, we teach single bow (on the water of course)
and mention the other two, with a reference to more info in
the book. But, I'm wondering if I should go into more detail
(in the classroom, since there are more important things to
do on the water).

What do you use?

What do you think is important, given the conditions I
described?

For your conditions you probably don't have to dwell too much on this, but your students
may be sailing other environments someday.

I've been a fan of the Double Anchor - two off the bow at roughly a 45 degree angle. My
primary is a Delta, and when there's a need, I'll also use a Fortress. The "need" arises
in soft mud, where the Delta can do the "slow drag," or in tight quarters where you need
to limit swing, or when the wind picks up and you need that extra security.

The two anchors complement each other - the Delta has a lot of chain and is very unlikely
to release even if it drags a bit, while the Fortress does well with minimal chain, and
can be set quickly with a tug. It can be rowed, or even swum out if its not feasible to
deploy from deck. Its flaw is that it can completely release and fail to reset, but that
is unlikely in the double anchor setup.

For this setup you might check out Chuck Kantor's latest book - I was pleased to see he
likes the same setup I've used for years. And you should definitely have Hinz's book,
which does a pretty good job of backing up the art with science.



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
I'm in the process of getting a class together for some
of the more experienced students. One of the questions
that seems to come up from time to time is how to
anchor on the bay.

Anchoring out here is pretty simple, since bay mud is
pretty sticky. Assuming you even get close to the right
scope, it hardly ever a problem (with some caveats about
distance to shore and the occasional rock outcroping).
However, several people are interested in learning about
other anchoring techniques. The two that seem to come
up the most are two bow anchors and mooring-ball-bow/stern
anchor.

Up until now, we teach single bow (on the water of course)
and mention the other two, with a reference to more info in
the book. But, I'm wondering if I should go into more detail
(in the classroom, since there are more important things to
do on the water).

What do you use?

What do you think is important, given the conditions I
described?

Good references... thanks

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
For your conditions you probably don't have to dwell too much on this, but
your students
may be sailing other environments someday.

I've been a fan of the Double Anchor - two off the bow at roughly a 45
degree angle. My
primary is a Delta, and when there's a need, I'll also use a Fortress.
The "need" arises
in soft mud, where the Delta can do the "slow drag," or in tight quarters
where you need
to limit swing, or when the wind picks up and you need that extra
security.

The two anchors complement each other - the Delta has a lot of chain and
is very unlikely
to release even if it drags a bit, while the Fortress does well with
minimal chain, and
can be set quickly with a tug. It can be rowed, or even swum out if its
not feasible to
deploy from deck. Its flaw is that it can completely release and fail to
reset, but that
is unlikely in the double anchor setup.

For this setup you might check out Chuck Kantor's latest book - I was
pleased to see he
likes the same setup I've used for years. And you should definitely have
Hinz's book,
which does a pretty good job of backing up the art with science.



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
I'm in the process of getting a class together for some
of the more experienced students. One of the questions
that seems to come up from time to time is how to
anchor on the bay.

Anchoring out here is pretty simple, since bay mud is
pretty sticky. Assuming you even get close to the right
scope, it hardly ever a problem (with some caveats about
distance to shore and the occasional rock outcroping).
However, several people are interested in learning about
other anchoring techniques. The two that seem to come
up the most are two bow anchors and mooring-ball-bow/stern
anchor.

Up until now, we teach single bow (on the water of course)
and mention the other two, with a reference to more info in
the book. But, I'm wondering if I should go into more detail
(in the classroom, since there are more important things to
do on the water).

What do you use?

What do you think is important, given the conditions I
described?

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

I'm in the process of getting a class together for some
of the more experienced students. One of the questions
that seems to come up from time to time is how to
anchor on the bay.

Anchoring out here is pretty simple, since bay mud is
pretty sticky. Assuming you even get close to the right
scope, it hardly ever a problem (with some caveats about
distance to shore and the occasional rock outcroping).

Anchoring in sticky mud is easy. There are lots of anchors that
will set & hold well, in fact almost anything including a bundle
of cinderblocks will hold. So then the issue is choosing where,
how much scope, etc etc (always an issue but often
overshadowed).


However, several people are interested in learning about
other anchoring techniques. The two that seem to come
up the most are two bow anchors and mooring-ball-bow/stern
anchor.

I read Jeff's post with interest, and I respectfully disagree.
Setting 2 anchors is a major PITA and offers no holding
advantage over a bigger single anchor. It does limit swing room,
and that's important sometimes.

I recently read through Skipper Bob's cruising book. I was
surprised to see that he recommends using 2 Danforths, and seems
to think that carrying extra scope or different types of anchors
is a waste of time & money. He also says he *always* sets two
anchors in case one drags. Seems to me that carrying 3 different
types of anchor, and using the appropriate one, would be much
more secure.

BTW why would you ever set a stern anchor if swinging from a
mooring ball, unless you were in an anchorage exposed to cross
swells? That's a very specialized circumstance, and since the
second anchor is for comfort, not really critical.



Up until now, we teach single bow (on the water of course)
and mention the other two, with a reference to more info in
the book. But, I'm wondering if I should go into more detail
(in the classroom, since there are more important things to
do on the water).

Depends on how much class room time you have, and what the
circumstances you have to cope with on the water. Do you have
examples of several different types of anchor? I can't honestly
recommend going to a grassy area and letting students tear it up
just to demonstrate the challenges of anchoring in grass, what
with the environment and all, but you shoudl certainly give them
a chance to see what an anchor dragging is like. Taking
bearings, checking the rode, etc etc; but also driving home the
point that if your anchor is dragging, you can't stand around
and debate. Action must be taken promptly.



What do you use?

We use either a plow, Bruce, or Danforth. Right now our main
anchor on the tugboat is a 35# plow on 40' of 3/8" chain. It is
reliable and relatively easy to use. Soft mud and littered
bottoms are it's weak point, the only time it wouldn't set we
found that it had collected a mess of rags, plastic jugs, and
what looked like Barbie doll heads. Of course, that was a chilly
night when we were in a relatively open anchorage, late at
night, gale expected, etc etc.

I am a big fan of the Bruce anchor. Even when undersized, the
times I have used one, they have set quickly and very securely
in bottoms ranging from rock, grass, mud, and gravel. It will
also reset well if the boat swings to a new tide or wind.



What do you think is important, given the conditions I
described?

1- recognizing a bad place to anchor
2- getting the right anchor
3- setting it properly, figuring scope, etc etc.
4- making sure it is set.

I've been surprised at how few people really put any effort into
anchoring, or who put a lot of effort into the wrong (IMHO)
thing. For example, on the advice of people like Skipper Bob a
lot of people are setting two anchors, but using little or no
chain, anchoring in stupid places, and not bothering to take
bearings or transits.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I've set a stern anchor (5lb. Danforth dinghy anchor) in light winds when I
wanted the boat to point towards a creek channel, where the crabbers get up
early and make wakes.

Scotty


"DSK" wrote in message
...



BTW why would you ever set a stern anchor if swinging from a
mooring ball, unless you were in an anchorage exposed to cross
swells? That's a very specialized circumstance, and since the
second anchor is for comfort, not really critical.

Scott Vernon wrote:

I've set a stern anchor (5lb. Danforth dinghy anchor) in light winds when I
wanted the boat to point towards a creek channel, where the crabbers get up
early and make wakes.

Yeah, but were you on a mooring?

We have a spiffy 5# plastic coated mushroom anchor. Perfect for reducing the
tendecny to sail around at anchor, and would probably work to hold the bow into
a swell or wakes. But we don't do that. I figure that's part of being on the
boat, it's kinda fun except when somebody spills the beer.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

No, but it would work the same on a mooring. I have one of those too, only I
can't find it. Looked for it at home and figgured it was on the boat,
couldn't find it there either. Mostly use it as a sentinel/kellet.

Scotty


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Scott Vernon wrote:

I've set a stern anchor (5lb. Danforth dinghy anchor) in light winds
when I
wanted the boat to point towards a creek channel, where the crabbers get
up
early and make wakes.

Yeah, but were you on a mooring?

We have a spiffy 5# plastic coated mushroom anchor. Perfect for reducing
the
tendecny to sail around at anchor, and would probably work to hold the bow
into
a swell or wakes. But we don't do that. I figure that's part of being on
the
boat, it's kinda fun except when somebody spills the beer.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message ...

I read Jeff's post with interest, and I respectfully disagree.
Setting 2 anchors is a major PITA and offers no holding
advantage over a bigger single anchor. It does limit swing room,
and that's important sometimes.


I used to think two anchors is a PITA, but the Fortress is so light it can be managed
easily. I've only had badly tangled rodes once, and even then it was sorted out in 15
minutes.

The problem I have with the "one large anchor" approach is that you have to then use a
primary that's not just one level oversized, but two or three. Much of the time that I
double anchor the decision is made after the fact, when the wind turns out stronger that
expected, or the holding ground is softer. My 35# Delta is good for 95% of my anchoring,
adding the Fortress allows me the sleep in otherwise marginal conditions. I probably use
it about 5-10% of the time.

Also, I'm convinced that two anchors offers much more security than one large, especially
when the two are different styles. I've never dragged an inch with two anchors, nor have
I heard of any such problem except in extreme conditions. And when the "big one" comes,
I'll be pulling out a third.

Of course, having a lightweight catamaran, I'm not eager to oversize my ground tackle.
But I've also become convinced that the most important overlooked factor is anchoring is
that the gear should be light enough that you don't hesitate to haul and re-deploy if the
first set does not work out as expected. Maybe a third of the time we decide it didn't
work out right - either we dragged a bit, the conditions changed, or maybe someone
squeezed in where I didn't think was appropriate. Having relatively light gear, I just
haul it and reset.

snip

I've been surprised at how few people really put any effort into
anchoring, or who put a lot of effort into the wrong (IMHO)
thing. For example, on the advice of people like Skipper Bob a
lot of people are setting two anchors, but using little or no
chain, anchoring in stupid places, and not bothering to take
bearings or transits.

My pet peeve is the "herd instinct" where people see three boats on the west side of an
anchorage, figure that must be where the good holding is, and drop their anchor right in
the middle. This leads to the conversation: "Do you think I'm too close?" he says from
about 5 feet away. "Maybe just a bit" I say, trying to be polite. "Well, don't worry,
You'll swing, I'll swing, it'll work out. Have a beer, don't worry." "Yeh, right," I
mumble, as I try to look like an axe murderer to his wife. "Honey, isn't that Ralphie's
Carver over on the other side? Maybe we should check it out?" his wife says. Thank God!
[true story]

Jeff Morris wrote:


I used to think two anchors is a PITA, but the Fortress is so light it can be managed
easily. I've only had badly tangled rodes once, and even then it was sorted out in 15
minutes.

It may be that with twin props, it's easier for you to veer out a second rode than for other
tpyes of boats. Or if you are already determined to splash the dinghy.



The problem I have with the "one large anchor" approach is that you have to then use a
primary that's not just one level oversized, but two or three.

No, it just has to be the right size & type, with the right rode. It shouldn't be an issue.

Maybe if you're going to carry 3 or 4 anchors anyway, you might as well carry smaller ones and
use 'em two at a time? That sort of makes sense, especially in a multi.


Much of the time that I
double anchor the decision is made after the fact, when the wind turns out stronger that
expected, or the holding ground is softer. My 35# Delta is good for 95% of my anchoring,
adding the Fortress allows me the sleep in otherwise marginal conditions. I probably use
it about 5-10% of the time.

Ah so, I thought you meant that you set a 2nd anchor most of the time. A Delta is like a plow,
right? We have a 35# CQR (with the hinged shank) which we use most of the time anchoring, and
it holds a 10 ton tugboat just fine. The night we anchored in the middle of Willoughby Bay
(soft mud) in Norfolk in 40 knot winds it held just fine... on the second try, after I got the
rags & old shoes & other trash cleared from it....



Also, I'm convinced that two anchors offers much more security than one large, especially
when the two are different styles. I've never dragged an inch with two anchors, nor have
I heard of any such problem except in extreme conditions. And when the "big one" comes,
I'll be pulling out a third.

My hurricane ground tackle is to be large (60 or 70#) Bruce with a bundle of of cinderblock on
the chain.



Of course, having a lightweight catamaran, I'm not eager to oversize my ground tackle.
But I've also become convinced that the most important overlooked factor is anchoring is
that the gear should be light enough that you don't hesitate to haul and re-deploy if the
first set does not work out as expected. Maybe a third of the time we decide it didn't
work out right - either we dragged a bit, the conditions changed, or maybe someone
squeezed in where I didn't think was appropriate. Having relatively light gear, I just
haul it and reset.

That's a good point, but hauling two sets is more difficult and time consuming. PLus, if
you're dragging, the amount of time spent raising & clearing the second anchor could be 10
seconds longer than the amount of time it takes to hit the bricks. And that's the one time the
rodes will be twisted etc etc. I just don't like the idea, guess that makes me a cantankerous
old fogey.



My pet peeve is the "herd instinct" where people see three boats on the west side of an
anchorage, figure that must be where the good holding is, and drop their anchor right in
the middle. This leads to the conversation: "Do you think I'm too close?" he says from
about 5 feet away. "Maybe just a bit" I say, trying to be polite. "Well, don't worry,
You'll swing, I'll swing, it'll work out. Have a beer, don't worry." "Yeh, right," I
mumble, as I try to look like an axe murderer to his wife. "Honey, isn't that Ralphie's
Carver over on the other side? Maybe we should check it out?" his wife says. Thank God!
[true story]

heh heh that's when I pull out the 'lectric guitar.

Have you read 'Coarse Cruising' by Michael Green? One of the funniest sailing books ever
written (in fact it gets my vote for definitely the funniest) and he has a dozen or so
hilarious anchoring stories.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message ...

It may be that with twin props, it's easier for you to veer out a second rode than for
other
tpyes of boats. Or if you are already determined to splash the dinghy.


There's some truth to that - and the large bow makes it a lot easier. But the real
breakthrough in my thinking was realizing that the angles didn't have to be perfect, and
for all its faults, the Fortress sets very, very easy - usually within a foot or so of
where it lands. I've only rowed it out in the "constrained" situation, where I couldn't
get the big boat where I want it - actually, I could have walked it out, since we were
trying to position in the middle of a very small creek.



The problem I have with the "one large anchor" approach is that you have to then use a
primary that's not just one level oversized, but two or three.

No, it just has to be the right size & type, with the right rode. It shouldn't be an
issue.

Maybe if you're going to carry 3 or 4 anchors anyway, you might as well carry smaller
ones and
use 'em two at a time? That sort of makes sense, especially in a multi.


Yes, on a Cat you don't want two "primary" anchors. I always wonder about boats with two
identical CQR's on the bow - what's the point?



Ah so, I thought you meant that you set a 2nd anchor most of the time. A Delta is like a
plow,
right? We have a 35# CQR (with the hinged shank) which we use most of the time
anchoring, and
it holds a 10 ton tugboat just fine. The night we anchored in the middle of Willoughby
Bay
(soft mud) in Norfolk in 40 knot winds it held just fine... on the second try, after I
got the
rags & old shoes & other trash cleared from it....


Yes, but how did you know that it wouldn't foul the second time? My 35# Delta has the
same rating as a 45# CQR, but in 40 knots I feel better with the Fortress sharing the
load.



Also, I'm convinced that two anchors offers much more security than one large,
especially
when the two are different styles. I've never dragged an inch with two anchors, nor
have
I heard of any such problem except in extreme conditions. And when the "big one"
comes,
I'll be pulling out a third.

My hurricane ground tackle is to be large (60 or 70#) Bruce with a bundle of of
cinderblock on
the chain.

Wouldn't you also set other anchors at different angles? A liveaboard friend likes to
point to a little Danforth stern anchor and say "That's the one that held us for the
'Storm of the Century' "


....

That's a good point, but hauling two sets is more difficult and time consuming. PLus, if
you're dragging, the amount of time spent raising & clearing the second anchor could be
10
seconds longer than the amount of time it takes to hit the bricks. And that's the one
time the
rodes will be twisted etc etc. I just don't like the idea, guess that makes me a
cantankerous
old fogey.


You're missing one point - the second is usually added after we've determined that maybe
the first isn't quite enough. If we drag with both (its never happened) I think I would
change anchorages.

If I've set two anchors and then someone tries to anchor too close, then I get a bit
testy.


heh heh that's when I pull out the 'lectric guitar.

For a while have a young kid helped, Bu Amelia's getting too big to play the crying baby.
Mollie the Water Dog, was bred to be a fog horn.


Have you read 'Coarse Cruising' by Michael Green? One of the funniest sailing books ever
written (in fact it gets my vote for definitely the funniest) and he has a dozen or so
hilarious anchoring stories.


British? Canal cruising? Yes - very funny Fortunately I couldn't find it in my basement
library just now, or I'd waste the day re-reading it!

Cheers!

-jeff

Fresh Breezes- Doug King