"DSK" wrote in message
...
Jonathan Ganz wrote:

I'm in the process of getting a class together for some
of the more experienced students. One of the questions
that seems to come up from time to time is how to
anchor on the bay.

Anchoring out here is pretty simple, since bay mud is
pretty sticky. Assuming you even get close to the right
scope, it hardly ever a problem (with some caveats about
distance to shore and the occasional rock outcroping).

Anchoring in sticky mud is easy. There are lots of anchors that
will set & hold well, in fact almost anything including a bundle
of cinderblocks will hold. So then the issue is choosing where,
how much scope, etc etc (always an issue but often
overshadowed).

I'm pretty sure my docksiders would stick in most
areas of the bay... it's really simple. Typically, we
do the anchoring lesson by sailing into a light wind
area (near the entrance to Richardson Bay), getting
into the 10-14 foot depth area, then luffing up and
dropping the hook. It's instructive for the students
because it takes the panic out of them worrying
about having to do it.

We discuss more than one anchor, but we don't
do it. We also discuss location, location, location,
and conditions, conditions, conditions.

However, several people are interested in learning about
other anchoring techniques. The two that seem to come
up the most are two bow anchors and mooring-ball-bow/stern
anchor.

I read Jeff's post with interest, and I respectfully disagree.
Setting 2 anchors is a major PITA and offers no holding
advantage over a bigger single anchor. It does limit swing room,
and that's important sometimes.

I tend to agree that setting more than one is a PITA. I think
people need to know you can do it and how, basically, it's
done, but there's no necessity in the bay.

I recently read through Skipper Bob's cruising book. I was
surprised to see that he recommends using 2 Danforths, and seems
to think that carrying extra scope or different types of anchors
is a waste of time & money. He also says he *always* sets two
anchors in case one drags. Seems to me that carrying 3 different
types of anchor, and using the appropriate one, would be much
more secure.

At Angel Island it's common for people to moor bow and stern
to mooring balls, since there is limited swing available. When the
mooring balls are all taken, which can happen easily leading up
to a weekend, the only way to not swing into someone and still
stay overnight is to put the anchor in the mud and the stern on
a mooring ball. We'll typically pick up the mooring ball first (mainly
so it doesn't get taken while we're getting the anchor set - some
of the power boaters can be pretty agressive there), then moving
the line astern, then motoring forward for the anchoring. Swing
really is critical there.

BTW why would you ever set a stern anchor if swinging from a
mooring ball, unless you were in an anchorage exposed to cross
swells? That's a very specialized circumstance, and since the
second anchor is for comfort, not really critical.



Up until now, we teach single bow (on the water of course)
and mention the other two, with a reference to more info in
the book. But, I'm wondering if I should go into more detail
(in the classroom, since there are more important things to
do on the water).

We only have one day for this particular segment of the class,
actually, only about 1/2 day. We do the "this is how you drag
your hook" lesson by reducing scope when we're finished with
lunch and seeing what happens.

Depends on how much class room time you have, and what the
circumstances you have to cope with on the water. Do you have
examples of several different types of anchor? I can't honestly
recommend going to a grassy area and letting students tear it up
just to demonstrate the challenges of anchoring in grass, what
with the environment and all, but you shoudl certainly give them
a chance to see what an anchor dragging is like. Taking
bearings, checking the rode, etc etc; but also driving home the
point that if your anchor is dragging, you can't stand around
and debate. Action must be taken promptly.



What do you use?

We use either a plow, Bruce, or Danforth. Right now our main
anchor on the tugboat is a 35# plow on 40' of 3/8" chain. It is
reliable and relatively easy to use. Soft mud and littered
bottoms are it's weak point, the only time it wouldn't set we
found that it had collected a mess of rags, plastic jugs, and
what looked like Barbie doll heads. Of course, that was a chilly
night when we were in a relatively open anchorage, late at
night, gale expected, etc etc.

I am a big fan of the Bruce anchor. Even when undersized, the
times I have used one, they have set quickly and very securely
in bottoms ranging from rock, grass, mud, and gravel. It will
also reset well if the boat swings to a new tide or wind.



What do you think is important, given the conditions I
described?

1- recognizing a bad place to anchor
2- getting the right anchor
3- setting it properly, figuring scope, etc etc.
4- making sure it is set.

I've been surprised at how few people really put any effort into
anchoring, or who put a lot of effort into the wrong (IMHO)
thing. For example, on the advice of people like Skipper Bob a
lot of people are setting two anchors, but using little or no
chain, anchoring in stupid places, and not bothering to take
bearings or transits.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

We usually politely ask them to leave and pick another spot.
No one has yet refused. Of course, we had one situation where
we didn't want them to move... We were in Belize on a cat,
when a 30 foot mono decided to anchor really close. I got
ready to give my speech about how there's a great place on
the other side of the lagoon, then I realized there were four
women on the boat. The raft up was nice.

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote in message
...

I read Jeff's post with interest, and I respectfully disagree.
Setting 2 anchors is a major PITA and offers no holding
advantage over a bigger single anchor. It does limit swing room,
and that's important sometimes.


I used to think two anchors is a PITA, but the Fortress is so light it can
be managed
easily. I've only had badly tangled rodes once, and even then it was
sorted out in 15
minutes.

The problem I have with the "one large anchor" approach is that you have
to then use a
primary that's not just one level oversized, but two or three. Much of
the time that I
double anchor the decision is made after the fact, when the wind turns out
stronger that
expected, or the holding ground is softer. My 35# Delta is good for 95%
of my anchoring,
adding the Fortress allows me the sleep in otherwise marginal conditions.
I probably use
it about 5-10% of the time.

Also, I'm convinced that two anchors offers much more security than one
large, especially
when the two are different styles. I've never dragged an inch with two
anchors, nor have
I heard of any such problem except in extreme conditions. And when the
"big one" comes,
I'll be pulling out a third.

Of course, having a lightweight catamaran, I'm not eager to oversize my
ground tackle.
But I've also become convinced that the most important overlooked factor
is anchoring is
that the gear should be light enough that you don't hesitate to haul and
re-deploy if the
first set does not work out as expected. Maybe a third of the time we
decide it didn't
work out right - either we dragged a bit, the conditions changed, or maybe
someone
squeezed in where I didn't think was appropriate. Having relatively light
gear, I just
haul it and reset.

snip

I've been surprised at how few people really put any effort into
anchoring, or who put a lot of effort into the wrong (IMHO)
thing. For example, on the advice of people like Skipper Bob a
lot of people are setting two anchors, but using little or no
chain, anchoring in stupid places, and not bothering to take
bearings or transits.

My pet peeve is the "herd instinct" where people see three boats on the
west side of an
anchorage, figure that must be where the good holding is, and drop their
anchor right in
the middle. This leads to the conversation: "Do you think I'm too close?"
he says from
about 5 feet away. "Maybe just a bit" I say, trying to be polite. "Well,
don't worry,
You'll swing, I'll swing, it'll work out. Have a beer, don't worry."
"Yeh, right," I
mumble, as I try to look like an axe murderer to his wife. "Honey, isn't
that Ralphie's
Carver over on the other side? Maybe we should check it out?" his wife
says. Thank God!
[true story]

We used two off the 43 cat in Belize last we were there.
The plow really didn't work most of the time, but the
undersized Danforth worked great. Finally, we gave up
on the plow completely and just used the Dan.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Jeff Morris wrote:


I used to think two anchors is a PITA, but the Fortress is so light it
can be managed
easily. I've only had badly tangled rodes once, and even then it was
sorted out in 15
minutes.

It may be that with twin props, it's easier for you to veer out a second
rode than for other
tpyes of boats. Or if you are already determined to splash the dinghy.



The problem I have with the "one large anchor" approach is that you have
to then use a
primary that's not just one level oversized, but two or three.

No, it just has to be the right size & type, with the right rode. It
shouldn't be an issue.

Maybe if you're going to carry 3 or 4 anchors anyway, you might as well
carry smaller ones and
use 'em two at a time? That sort of makes sense, especially in a multi.


Much of the time that I
double anchor the decision is made after the fact, when the wind turns
out stronger that
expected, or the holding ground is softer. My 35# Delta is good for 95%
of my anchoring,
adding the Fortress allows me the sleep in otherwise marginal
conditions. I probably use
it about 5-10% of the time.

Ah so, I thought you meant that you set a 2nd anchor most of the time. A
Delta is like a plow,
right? We have a 35# CQR (with the hinged shank) which we use most of the
time anchoring, and
it holds a 10 ton tugboat just fine. The night we anchored in the middle
of Willoughby Bay
(soft mud) in Norfolk in 40 knot winds it held just fine... on the second
try, after I got the
rags & old shoes & other trash cleared from it....



Also, I'm convinced that two anchors offers much more security than one
large, especially
when the two are different styles. I've never dragged an inch with two
anchors, nor have
I heard of any such problem except in extreme conditions. And when
the "big one" comes,
I'll be pulling out a third.

My hurricane ground tackle is to be large (60 or 70#) Bruce with a bundle
of of cinderblock on
the chain.



Of course, having a lightweight catamaran, I'm not eager to oversize my
ground tackle.
But I've also become convinced that the most important overlooked factor
is anchoring is
that the gear should be light enough that you don't hesitate to haul and
re-deploy if the
first set does not work out as expected. Maybe a third of the time we
decide it didn't
work out right - either we dragged a bit, the conditions changed, or
maybe someone
squeezed in where I didn't think was appropriate. Having relatively
light gear, I just
haul it and reset.

That's a good point, but hauling two sets is more difficult and time
consuming. PLus, if
you're dragging, the amount of time spent raising & clearing the second
anchor could be 10
seconds longer than the amount of time it takes to hit the bricks. And
that's the one time the
rodes will be twisted etc etc. I just don't like the idea, guess that
makes me a cantankerous
old fogey.



My pet peeve is the "herd instinct" where people see three boats on the
west side of an
anchorage, figure that must be where the good holding is, and drop their
anchor right in
the middle. This leads to the conversation: "Do you think I'm too
close?" he says from
about 5 feet away. "Maybe just a bit" I say, trying to be polite.
"Well, don't worry,
You'll swing, I'll swing, it'll work out. Have a beer, don't worry."
"Yeh, right," I
mumble, as I try to look like an axe murderer to his wife. "Honey,
isn't that Ralphie's
Carver over on the other side? Maybe we should check it out?" his wife
says. Thank God!
[true story]

heh heh that's when I pull out the 'lectric guitar.

Have you read 'Coarse Cruising' by Michael Green? One of the funniest
sailing books ever
written (in fact it gets my vote for definitely the funniest) and he has a
dozen or so
hilarious anchoring stories.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Jeff Morris wrote:

.... actually, I could have walked it out, since we were
trying to position in the middle of a very small creek.

Aren't shoal draft boats great?


..... I always wonder about boats with two
identical CQR's on the bow - what's the point?

Me too. Kinda dumb IMHO.


...... The night we anchored in the middle of Willoughby Bay
(soft mud) in Norfolk in 40 knot winds it held just fine... on the second try, after I got
the
rags & old shoes & other trash cleared from it....


Yes, but how did you know that it wouldn't foul the second time? My 35# Delta has the
same rating as a 45# CQR, but in 40 knots I feel better with the Fortress sharing the
load.

I didn't know that it wouldn't foul the second time, I just knew that it was dragging
the first time and it had to come back up & be reset. When I put it down the second
time, I paid out about 12:1 scope to set it, and let it dig in with a light strain, then
backed down full throttle. We rarely do that for an overnight anchorage, but the
wind was expected to build and since it had dragged once already (actually it never
set properly), we wanted more confidence.

And it worked well, which was good, since it was a chilly night and quite late to be moving
around looking for a better spot. The night run through Norfolk harbor made me nervous,
especially after a hurricane had blown all the placards off the marks and there was lots of
debris in the water. First time I've ever done it with radar though.


My hurricane ground tackle is to be large (60 or 70#) Bruce with a bundle of of
cinderblock on
the chain.

Wouldn't you also set other anchors at different angles?

Probably not, unless we were in a relatively shallow anchorage with clear water and
an even bottom. The only thing multiple anchors do IMHO is limit swing circle. It
takes a lot of time & work to lay out multiple ground tackle, I'd rather invest the
same effort into setting bigger & more secure single anchor & then move on to other
tasks.

When we were preparing for Hurricane Isabel we spent two full days from dawn
until after dark. None of the jobs was all that big or difficult, just lots and lots of
picky details... such as putting on chafe gear that could be the deciding factor.


A liveaboard friend likes to
point to a little Danforth stern anchor and say "That's the one that held us for the
'Storm of the Century' "


Not to be mean but it seems he should have planned better. I say that in full
awareness that for the only hurricane I have had full responsibility for securing the boat, we
were holed up in a great spot pretty much by blind luck.


Have you read 'Coarse Cruising' by Michael Green?


British? Canal cruising? Yes - very funny Fortunately I couldn't find it in my basement
library just now, or I'd waste the day re-reading it!



You may be thinking of 'Coarse Sailing' which was about chartering on the Broads.
In 'Coarse Cruising' the same author owns shares a small cruiser with some friends, sailing to

France & Holland among other adventures... I'm going to go dig out my copy now...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Jeff Morris wrote:

British? Canal cruising? Yes - very funny Fortunately I couldn't find
it in my basement
library just now, or I'd waste the day re-reading it!



You may be thinking of 'Coarse Sailing' which was about chartering on the
Broads.
In 'Coarse Cruising' the same author owns shares a small cruiser with some
friends, sailing to

France & Holland among other adventures... I'm going to go dig out my copy
now...

I got last year's Christmas present from this group. I think that I just
got an idea for this year's present.

Thank you, Doug & Jeff.



Regards


Donal
--

"DSK" wrote in message ...
Jeff Morris wrote:

.... actually, I could have walked it out, since we were
trying to position in the middle of a very small creek.

Aren't shoal draft boats great?

This day its was even sweeter than normal because we were along up this little cove, while
300 boats were anchored out - It was a NY Yacht Club Rendezvous on the same day JFK Jr's
plane went down, so many didn't go over to the Vineyard. Here's a pic from our boat:

http://www.sv-loki.com/Along_the_Way/Hadley.jpg


A liveaboard friend likes to
point to a little Danforth stern anchor and say "That's the one that held us for the
'Storm of the Century' "


Not to be mean but it seems he should have planned better. I say that in full
awareness that for the only hurricane I have had full responsibility for securing the
boat, we
were holed up in a great spot pretty much by blind luck.


This was the big late winter Superstorm in 1993. They were somewhere south, maybe around
Albemarle Sound, or maybe further South. They carry two Delta-like experimental anchors
donated by one of the major manufacturers for testing. Since they have lived at anchor
for much of the last 20 years, they probably know more about the art (especially in the
ICW) than anyone. I believe they almost alone in small bay and set up the two primary
anchors in the direction from which they expected the worst wind. A backup Danforth was
rowed out to one side of the plows, and then as an afterthought, the stern anchor, an
experimental Danforth-like mud anchor with no stock was carried ashore toward the other
side and buried in the mud. It turned out the worst wind came from that direction and it
held just fine. As it happened the storm hit at low tide so the anchor was actually above
them - is that negative scope?


You may be thinking of 'Coarse Sailing' which was about chartering on the Broads.

I think you're right

In 'Coarse Cruising' the same author owns shares a small cruiser with some friends,
sailing to
France & Holland among other adventures... I'm going to go dig out my copy now...

"Donal" wrote in message
...
I got last year's Christmas present from this group. I think that I just
got an idea for this year's present.

Thank you, Doug & Jeff.


You're getting your wife an anchor! How romantic!

Reminds me of the time my brother and I got our mother a cluster gear for the transmission
of her Model A Ford for Mother's Day.

Aren't shoal draft boats great?


Jeff Morris wrote:
This day its was even sweeter than normal because we were along up this little cove, while
300 boats were anchored out - It was a NY Yacht Club Rendezvous on the same day JFK Jr's
plane went down, so many didn't go over to the Vineyard. Here's a pic from our boat:

http://www.sv-loki.com/Along_the_Way/Hadley.jpg

Whew, what a crowd. How many boats ran agound trying to come in near you?




This was the big late winter Superstorm in 1993. They were somewhere south, maybe around
Albemarle Sound, or maybe further South. They carry two Delta-like experimental anchors
donated by one of the major manufacturers for testing. Since they have lived at anchor
for much of the last 20 years, they probably know more about the art (especially in the
ICW) than anyone. I believe they almost alone in small bay and set up the two primary
anchors in the direction from which they expected the worst wind. A backup Danforth was
rowed out to one side of the plows, and then as an afterthought, the stern anchor, an
experimental Danforth-like mud anchor with no stock was carried ashore toward the other
side and buried in the mud. It turned out the worst wind came from that direction and it
held just fine. As it happened the storm hit at low tide so the anchor was actually above
them - is that negative scope?

Thanks for the further info. I dunno about "negative scope" but it sounds like your friend is
seriously into ground tackle. I'm a little surprised that he was willing to trust an
experimental anchor though. This neck of the woods offers good holding ground mostly, but
there is often junk on the bottom (I know of one place in an otherwise ideal anchorage along
the Pamlico River that is literally paved... what's gonna hook in there??) and enough hard
things along the shore to hit that dragging can be a major bummer.

I am thinking seriously about replacing our plow with a spade, but I also want to put a bruce
anchor on there. We need a double bow roller to replace the current single, also we *really*
need a windlass.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Donal wrote:


I got last year's Christmas present from this group. I think that I just
got an idea for this year's present.

Thank you, Doug & Jeff.

You're welcome, just don't read either of these books while eating or drinking.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message ...

Aren't shoal draft boats great?


Jeff Morris wrote:
This day its was even sweeter than normal because we were along up this little cove,
while
300 boats were anchored out - It was a NY Yacht Club Rendezvous on the same day JFK
Jr's
plane went down, so many didn't go over to the Vineyard. Here's a pic from our boat:

http://www.sv-loki.com/Along_the_Way/Hadley.jpg

Whew, what a crowd. How many boats ran agound trying to come in near you?


Three or four boats started to come in, then backed out slowly. There's about 5-6 feet
right in the middle, but with no room to swing. I think when they saw my second anchor
sitting on a mud flat they got the hint. With a 3 foot draft we had about 50 feet to
swing around - just enough.


Thanks for the further info. I dunno about "negative scope" but it sounds like your
friend is
seriously into ground tackle. I'm a little surprised that he was willing to trust an
experimental anchor though.

The ground tackle was one set of gear that they kept when they upgraded to a larger boat.
They had a lot of faith, based on probably haveing anchored with them several hundred to a
thousand times already. By now, I'd guess they've anchored maybe 5000 nights somewhere on
the East Coast. They are the ones that started me thinking about "lighter is better" -
they still don't have a power windlass.

....

I am thinking seriously about replacing our plow with a spade, but I also want to put a
bruce
anchor on there. We need a double bow roller to replace the current single, also we
*really*
need a windlass.

I've also considered the Spade. And I love my power windlass - with it we end up in the
best spot, not the first spot.


--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
If you can't say something nice, say something surrealistic. -Zippy