There are a whole bunch of different factors involved with each type
boat, operator, and conditions (such as the folding prop issue) that
will have to be factored in, which makes trying to recommend a positive
solution to any one boat, difficult, in this medium.
One reason I don't like using too much power/speed astern is the strain
on steering gear ( be it tiller or pedestal) when trying to use the rudder.
Something else to think about, which I frequently use (in the past on
sail and nowadays on power). If I have a right hand prop and want to
back in a particular direction, I will frequently start with a kick
ahead and hard left rudder to get the boat swinging to port, then
midships the rudder and start astern (timing is everything) and let the
prop walk stop the port hand swing of the bow while getting up sternway
so that the rudder can take over when I stop the engine so that I'm
going in the direction I want (this can be repeated).
Also, play close attention to the wind ..... a high percentage of boats
want to back into the wind (and current) and will sometimes do this over
prop walk, ....something else you can use to your advantage.

otn

DSK wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:


In truth, there is no "prop walk" speed ..... it is always there. What
you describe is getting enough sternway on that the larger rudder on
your sailboat becomes, somewhat, effective.


Agreed. In my experience, revving exaggerates prop walk, but a boat with a small prop
and a large rudder (such as most sailboats) this may be the best way to get the boat
backing the way you want.

Out tugboat has the opposite, big prop and relatively small rudder. It takes a lot of
speed astern to get steerage, and it makes me nervous to go rushing backwards. So I
usually leave it at idle in reverse to gather sternway and then steer using bursts of
forward against the rudder.

To back into our slip, we have to make a 90 degree turn in the opposite direction
that prop walk in astern wants to pull us. I put the helm hard over & leave it, and
idle in reverse, occasionally switching to forward and revving slightly. It's taken
some practice but we can do it pretty smoothly now (most of the time).

Some folks with heavy single prop boats just give up and get a bow thruster. In fact,
in many trawler magazines you'll see claims that a bow thruster is necessary. So far
I haven't found it to be so, but I grant that there are some conditions where some
maneuvers simply can't work.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Loser! Fat people look stupid and gross.

They look stupid because they are too stupid to
lose weight which is proven to harm them and
decrease their quality of life. They demonstrate
they have no pride in their health and abuse
what God gave them. Fat people get in the
way of normal people. They ruin the view.
They got fat because they ate more calories
than they expended.This means they are either
lazy or gluttons or a combination of both. Fat
people have no redeeming qualities.

Fat people look gross because they ARE gross.
Obesity is not a disease; it is a failing of character.
There is no excuse for it. To make a body three
or four times the size it is supposed to be is to
make a mockery out of being a human being.
It shows everyone else a defective body with
a defective mind within the blubber.

All those other things you talk about giving an
appearance to sounds like you have been going
to some wacko, liberal, tree-hugging class or
something. The bottom line is appearances
matter. People don't like ugly things. Fat
people are ugly things - stupid, ugly things.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Neal,

While I'm talking about your mental outlook on problems, get your head
in tune to reality.

Things that really have meaning in life aren't concerned with
appearances. Happiness; is that a thin thing or shout?
What does LOVE look like? Please tell me what contentment looks like?
Pride, knowledge, accomplishment, satisfaction, joy, fear, failure, hope
and hopelessness; are any of these things have a thin or a stout
appearance?

In one of your lonely moments give some thought to these things and see,
in your Opinionated Mind if you can give a visual description of these
things

Let us, "DRINK TO THAT!"

Your Obese, 77 year old Buddy,
Thom

Hey, stupid, we're talking sailboats here - not your beloved
motor boat. Comments interspersed.


"otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net...
There are a whole bunch of different factors involved with each type
boat, operator, and conditions (such as the folding prop issue) that
will have to be factored in, which makes trying to recommend a positive
solution to any one boat, difficult, in this medium.

Wrong. We are only talking about a sailboat here with one propeller
centered at the back of the keel forward of the rudder. Have you
ever even seen such a thing? No? I thought so.

One reason I don't like using too much power/speed astern is the strain
on steering gear ( be it tiller or pedestal) when trying to use the rudder.

Sailboats don't have big, powerful motors like the motor boats you are
used to. Their auxilliary motors won't cause damage to the rudder or
steering gear when reversing.

Something else to think about, which I frequently use (in the past on
sail and nowadays on power). If I have a right hand prop and want to
back in a particular direction, I will frequently start with a kick
ahead and hard left rudder to get the boat swinging to port, then
midships the rudder and start astern (timing is everything) and let the
prop walk stop the port hand swing of the bow while getting up sternway
so that the rudder can take over when I stop the engine so that I'm
going in the direction I want (this can be repeated).

Yeah right. Try backing out of a slip that way. You will hit one side
then the other, then back. What an idiot! Also, you will be going too
fast and be out of control.

Go back to rec.boats and STAY there.


S.Simon

So, Simple,

Would you be so kind, as to explain just how a true (I as you describe)
sailboat goes in reverse, against the wind, in a narrow seaway, without
tacking room?

While you're at it, explain how you get off a lee shore with the tide
aganst you, without tacking room?

ALSO, if you're so damn happy sailing why in the HELL do you have that
MONSTROSITY clamped to your stern?

OT

Simple Simon wrote:
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
Neal claims that a "proper sailboat" has a transom hung outboard.
This may be true, but a "proper auxiliary sailboat" has an engine
that can be relied on to handle the worst situations.

Your motorboat mentality is showing again. Pathetic, man, pathetic!



Yes Neal, but you're the one who motors wherever you go. And on top of that, you tow a
motorboat for a dinghy!

bject: It finally hit me.
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 08/15/2003 10:42 Pacific Standard

Hey, stupid, we're talking sailboats here - not your beloved
motor boat. Comments interspersed.

Hey stupid, put a motor in any boat, connect it to a shaft and propellor, start
it up, put it in gear and we have a motor boat.....egpart of the rules test
you flunked.


One reason I don't like using too much power/speed astern is the strain
on steering gear ( be it tiller or pedestal) when trying to use the rudder.

Sailboats don't have big, powerful motors like the motor boats you are
used to. Their auxilliary motors won't cause damage to the rudder or
steering gear when reversing.

Your inexperience, is showing


Something else to think about, which I frequently use (in the past on
sail and nowadays on power). If I have a right hand prop and want to
back in a particular direction, I will frequently start with a kick
ahead and hard left rudder to get the boat swinging to port, then
midships the rudder and start astern (timing is everything) and let the
prop walk stop the port hand swing of the bow while getting up sternway
so that the rudder can take over when I stop the engine so that I'm
going in the direction I want (this can be repeated).

Yeah right. Try backing out of a slip that way. You will hit one side
then the other, then back. What an idiot! Also, you will be going too
fast and be out of control.

Only an idiot such as yourself would think to apply this to a "slip" situation
..... inexperience? or lack of common sense?

Shen

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
So, Simple,

Would you be so kind, as to explain just how a true (I as you describe)
sailboat goes in reverse, against the wind, in a narrow seaway, without
tacking room?


Why would one attempt to go in reverse when one can go forward?
Are you daft, man? In case you and Jeff don't realize it, winds have
a tendency to change over a period of time. If one cannot sail out
of a narrow channel or seaway one can wait until the wind favors
sailing. One does not need a motor, ever, when there is wind enough
to sail. One only needs a motor when there is NO wind or so little
wind that sailing in not possible or practical (such as when there is
an adverse current).

While you're at it, explain how you get off a lee shore with the tide
aganst you, without tacking room?

One doesn't put oneself in that position to begin with. But, if for
some dumb reason, which you and Jeff seem to have in abundance,
one finds oneself caught on a lee shore with not a chance of sailing
off then one relies on one's anchors until the conditions change.

ALSO, if you're so damn happy sailing why in the HELL do you have that
MONSTROSITY clamped to your stern?

Like I explained the little 9.9 horse Honda engine is a convenience
for when there is no wind or too little wind for sailing. Those conditions
NEVER cause an outboard engine to come out of the water like you
or that idiot Jeff or Otnmbrd tried to claim. The argument that an
outboard motor is of no value in a sailboat is just totally wrong and
proves that any sailor who makes such a claim does not know how
to sail or keep himself out of dangerous situations. On the contrary,
people like you and that fool Jeff willingly motor into situations where,
if and when their engines fail, their well-being and that of their vessel
is in jeopardy.

I hope this helps.

S.Simon

But, Jeff you idiot you, motorsailing is still sailing. If one can shorten one's
time to a destination so as to arrive before dark this is a legitimate use
of an engine. Unlike you, I am not so stupid as to take all sail down
and motor straight into it. I simply used the motor as means of fetching
the island instead of beating back and forth until after dark which is not
a good idea on the shallow Bahamas banks.

By the way, didn't you notice how the motor did NOT come out of
the water? Isn't that what you maintain - that an outboard is useless
in a steep chop?

Another argument lost by the power squadron.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Real sailors? Like the one that wrote:

"However, the wind ended up coming directly out of sixty degrees and it piped up to about
twenty knots. There was a pretty steep chop developing and I ended up being able to make
only thirty degrees. Gave up beating into it when I came to the conclusion I would not
make it to Mangrove Cay. Decided to motor sail with main alone so I could pinch close and
pounded my way to the cay ..."



Oh No! There's a chop! Better fire up that outboard!

You certainly talk the talk Neal, but you sure as **** don't walk the walk!


Simple Simon wrote:
If there is a 'nasty chop' there is wind. If there is wind
we real sailors don't bother with a motor. Sails work
just great. You should try it sometime.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
A transome hung outboard becomes totally useless in a nasty chop.

With the Banana Boat loaded for cuising, she'll start hobby-horsing
if a fly lands on the bow. The propeller on that outboard will lift
out on every bounce, turning a lee shore into a death trap. Neal is
wise not to leave his sheltered waters.

I motor wherever I go. Ha ha hahh ahahahahahahha!

Did I mention to you about the time I sailed to the Bahamas
prior to this last trip while the winds were much more favorable?

I sailed over to the Abacos, then down to George Town in
the Exumas, then out to Rum Cay and around San Salvador,
then to Long Island, then back up the Exumas to the Berries
then over to Bimini and back to Cape Florida. I took ten
gallons of gasoline with men and had five gallons left when
I got back to Biscayne Bay. Did not buy, steal or borrow
a drop while in the Bahamas. Yes sir, that's motoring all
the time.

Another loss for the power squadron.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Simple Simon wrote:
"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
Neal claims that a "proper sailboat" has a transom hung outboard.
This may be true, but a "proper auxiliary sailboat" has an engine
that can be relied on to handle the worst situations.

Your motorboat mentality is showing again. Pathetic, man, pathetic!



Yes Neal, but you're the one who motors wherever you go. And on top of that, you tow a
motorboat for a dinghy!

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...

A true sailboat, like mine, has the prop mounted abaft the
rudder----------We are talking about a sailboat, with the Prop centered
on the keel in front of the rudder
-----A boat with an engine inside the hull is not a sailboat

OK, so give me a break. I should have said we are talking about
a "motor sailer" with prop centered . . ." Big deal. Try addressing
the point of the post and not some lame attempt at semantics. You
know damned well what I mean. Any so called sailboat with a big
diesel inside with transmission, shaft big propeller in an aperture
in front of the keel is really just a motor boat with sails. Calling it
even a motor sailer is being lenient.


Shall we continue to reply or would you rather continue this discussion
on your own, single handed, pig headed, opinionated in error as you live
G or should we let you work both sides of the discussion as we,truly,
cover Lady Sailor's problem of handling her (and Mike's) newly acquired
boat in reverse? It is no need for any of us to reply to you until you
figure out just what the hell you really want to say.

Then why are you bothering to reply is there is not point?
Is it because you are as dumb as Jeff and Shen44 and ontmbrd
when it comes to sailing a real sailboat?

S.Simon