Nick wrote:

||||| large snip

|| I have carried out my own non-scientific research - asking users
|| that participate why they joined the group, how long it took them
|| before noticing the group and joining it, asking in UK web-based
|| boating forums why people don't post to u.r.b.power, asking those
|| who post to the US biased rec.boats why they don't post to
|| uk.rec.boats.power. And without exception, every single person that
|| expressed an opinion said that the name .power had put them off -
|| they thought it was a racing group. Those that did subscribe did so
|| because they couldn't find one that dealt with motor boats and it
|| was that or nothing. Of course I now risk someone turning round and
|| saying "that's rubbish, I like it the way it is" but that is what I
|| have found since I first started looking into it around 8 months
|| ago.

Although you didn't ask me, I am one of those as you describe. I've been
involved with motor boating (in one way or another) for many years, but the
"power" in the NG name put me off - images of mega-horsepower single-purpose
craft and b*lls-out racing. To a UK English speaker, "powerboating" and
"motorboating" are very different things. It was a while before I started
reading the group and realised there were a lot of people like me -
cruising, fishing, amateur mechanics etc. The traffic is disappointingly
light, but I'm not surprised if my approach was typical. Only one way to
find out...

I support the proposal.


--


===============================
Rich
Tiggrr - V8 trialler
RR 4.6HSE

wrote:

||| I thought uk.rec.boats.power was only for people who raced boats,
||| as in power-boat racing. So, from my point of view, I think a
||| change would be beneficial.
|||
|| Charter...
|| uk.rec.boats.power will discuss power boating in UK waters and the
|| activities of UK powerboaters elsewhere. Power boat sports (eg
|| racing, water skiing and jetskiing) are valid topics except where
|| covered by a more specific group.

"Power boating" - surely that is Richard's whole point? The term suggests
some form of racing to most people IMO. It kept me away for a long time.

--


===============================
Rich
Tiggrr - V8 trialler
RR 4.6HSE

What about inflicting a speed limit on this ng????

If so, what speed?

4mph limits it to canals and very slow fishing boats...

8mph limits it to the above and river navigations, and slightly faster
fishing boats...


Anything more is imaginary, surely????? I mean what moron would want
to GO that fast in a boat????


Tony
sedately on the Basy

[I'm not serious, Mike...by the Wey!]

In article ,
wrote:

Most motor boat owners post to uk.rec.waterways.

Most don't post at all :-)

Only a tiny percentage of boat owners use inland waterways but aIui that
group is not really a boating group.

uk.rec.boats.power has never had much traffic.

Not too bad, a relatively quiet, steady group is more use than a 1000 a day
rantfest.

It ain't broke.

Cheerio,

--

Fine idea, it makes the group sound more broad based 'power' suggests racing
etc. where as 'motor' could cover every aspect of powered boating, if anyone
wanted a specific boat racing site then they could set one up. Anything that
attracts more posts is a good idea.

My two penneth !

Cheers Martin
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

rename unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

Newsgroup line:
uk.boats.motor All aspects of motor boating in the UK


*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***
*** CROSSPOSTED TO UK.REC.BOATS.POWER ***

This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.

RATIONALE: uk.boats.motor

Prior to 1998 there were no newsgroups covering powered boats in the UK.
Sailing was covered by uk.rec.sailing, whilst uk.rec.waterways dealt
with waterways in general. Motor cruisers, sports boats, speed boats and
in fact any powered craft were not covered by any UK newsgroup. As a
result, uk.rec.boats.power was created in August 1998.

However, since it's creation the number of posts has been rather small
compared with uk.rec.sailing, especially considering the approximate
50-50 split between power and sail in the UK. Comments by regular and
new participants indicate that the name was a poor choice - power seems
to imply racing or high performance craft. "Motor" is more of a generic
term which would attract the users that were the intended audience of
uk.rec.boats.power in the first instance. Hence the request to rename
uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

PROPOSAL (to be activated in two stages)

1. Create a new unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.motor with the
following charter

CHARTER: uk.boats.motor

uk.rec.boats.motor will discuss motor boating in UK waters and the
activities of UK motor boaters elsewhere. Motor boat sports (eg racing
and water skiing) are valid topics except where covered by a more
specific group.

Advertising

Advertising is forbidden, with these exceptions:

Suppliers of goods and services relevant to Motor Boats in the UK may
post an invitation to visit their web site or request details. It should
be of four lines or fewer and not posted more than once every 3 months.
The subject line should begin "ADVERT: ". Private adverts are welcome
but must not exceed one post per subject or user per week.

Binaries & Formatting

Encoded binaries (e.g. pictures, compressed files, etc.) are forbidden.
Such material belongs on a web or FTP site to which a pointer may be
posted. Cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP) may be used where
authentication is important and should be as short as possible.

Posts must be readable as plain text. HTML, RTF and similarly formatted
messages are prohibited. To see how to make some common newsreaders
comply with this, read http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html.

END CHARTER

2. Remove existing unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power, this to be
delayed at the discretion of Control until the bulk of discussion has
moved to the new group.

PROCEDU

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until December 22nd) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method. Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce.
Please refer to this document if you have any questions about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
uk.net.news.announce
uk.net.news.config
uk.rec.boats.power

Proponent:
Nick Smeltzer

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:07:55 -0800, Adrian Stott wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:48:43 +0100,
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:55:16 +0000, "Derek.Moody"
wrote:

In article , Richard
wrote:

"Nick Smeltzer" wrote in message
...

rename unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power to
uk.rec.boats.motor

Newsgroup line:
uk.boats.motor All aspects of motor boating in the UK

I thought uk.rec.boats.power was only for people who raced boats, as in
power-boat racing. So, from my point of view, I think a change would be
beneficial.

Imo 'Power' implies a motive force other than muscles or nature. In other
words some sort of motor. The speed generated is immaterial.

So while I see no need for a change I won't object - but it feels like
pointless meddling.

Most motor boat owners post to uk.rec.waterways.
uk.rec.boats.power has never had much traffic.
uk.rec.waterways isn't the most obvious name for a boat group, yet
many boat owners use it.
Changing the name won't add to the traffic. I don't see a need for
further fragmentation of the uk.rec. boat groups.

As a subscriber to uk.rec.waterways, may I comment on the above?

"uk.rec.waterways" is the obvious name for a waterways group, which is
what the group in question is. In other words, it is concerned with
inland navigation and navigations.

It is not a boat group, although indeed a number of its subscribers
are boat owners.

Agreed. uk.rec.waterways is about 20% about boats, 15% about waterways
history and features and 65% about how to configure microsoft
newsreaders and avoid spam. At least, that's what it feels like.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

"Dave Mayall" wrote in message
ine.co.uk...
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:53:16 +0000, Nick Smeltzer
wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

rename unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

Newsgroup line:
uk.boats.motor All aspects of motor boating in the UK


*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***
*** CROSSPOSTED TO UK.REC.BOATS.POWER ***

This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.

RATIONALE: uk.boats.motor

Prior to 1998 there were no newsgroups covering powered boats in the UK.
Sailing was covered by uk.rec.sailing, whilst uk.rec.waterways dealt
with waterways in general. Motor cruisers, sports boats, speed boats and
in fact any powered craft were not covered by any UK newsgroup. As a
result, uk.rec.boats.power was created in August 1998.

However, since it's creation the number of posts has been rather small
compared with uk.rec.sailing, especially considering the approximate
50-50 split between power and sail in the UK. Comments by regular and
new participants indicate that the name was a poor choice - power seems
to imply racing or high performance craft. "Motor" is more of a generic
term which would attract the users that were the intended audience of
uk.rec.boats.power in the first instance. Hence the request to rename
uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

You talk about attracting the intended audience.

That seems entirely backwards to me. Is there a subset of motor
boaters who feel they don't have a group to post to? What sort of
motor boats are we talking here?

As an owner of a motor boat (specifically a canal narrowboat), I
certainly don't feel a need for a group, and indeed would oppose such
a move on the basis that it might detract from uk.rec.waterways.

Why was this RFD not crossposted to uk.rec.waterways?

--
Dave Mayall

I am also a canal boat owners, and we are very, very lucky in the way
uk.rec.waterways supports us and all the other boaters who pop in to ask
questions etc.

However when I started getting into newsgroups (I have been professionally
involved in river boating since the 1970s) I ignotre uk.rec.boats.power
because the name certainly gave me the impression that the group was into
Power Boats - which is not my scene or interest.

It was many months ago that I raised this on the group & I thought it had
died the death.

I think it is a simple "tidying up" exersize, we have a group for sailing,
we have a group who's name makes it clear is intended for everything to do
with inland boating and waterways, we have a group who's name indicates it
is interested in kidies boats (but actually is about canoing), and we have a
group that has a name that has evidently put a number of people off looking
at it.

I am sure this was never intentional, but it appears to have happened.

I do not see any "downside" to the proposal and it might even produce more
interest over time if acted upon. If traffic indicates a need fopr a Power
Boat group in time, so be it.

Tony Brooks, who will continue to monitor Sailing, Power, and Waterways -
whatever they are called.

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 09:50:13 +0000, Nick Atty wrote:


snip
"uk.rec.waterways" is the obvious name for a waterways group, which is
what the group in question is. In other words, it is concerned with
inland navigation and navigations.

It is not a boat group, although indeed a number of its subscribers
are boat owners.

Agreed. uk.rec.waterways is about 20% about boats, 15% about waterways
history and features and 65% about how to configure microsoft
newsreaders and avoid spam. At least, that's what it feels like.

I reckon 5% about boats, 30% about waterways, 65% chatter.......

I have to say that I'd never looked at uk.rec.boats.power until this RFD
- assuming that it related solely to powerboats - but personally I would
welcome a group with a focus on the technical/mechanical aspects of
motorboats in general. The proposed charter for uk.rec.boats.motor does
not seem to provide this specifically, however having looked at a recent
snapshot of postings to u.r.b.p, I can see the rationale behind the
proposed name change and would support it as being a more appropriate
name for the group. IMO the name change is likely to have the effect
hoped for by the proponent.

--
Andy Clarke

Boat Safety Scheme Examinations and narrowboat repairs
Oxford Canal based. Mobile: 07860 577480

Most motor boat owners post to uk.rec.waterways.

Most don't post at all :-)

So what? You could say that about any interest group.

Only a tiny percentage of boat owners use inland waterways

Only a tiny proportion of those with internet access use news groups.
Again, so what? Try making a point that makes sense.

group is not really a boating group.

It's a waterways group used by a large number boat owners and boaters
of all persuasions. I don't have a narrow boat or even a motor boat,
but I still find it one of the best boat groups in the world.

I have a motor boat, and the use of "inland waterways" put me off that
group, much as "power" put others off this one. If "inland" is one of the
best boat groups in the world then stay there.

only slightly greater than zero most days.
Doh - I thought that was the point of the proposed change?

It ain't broke.

and if it aint used, what's the point of renaming it?

It is broke. Change the name.

Mike

In article
"Nick Atty" writes:

[45 lines, only two of which were relevant to the reply, snipped]

Agreed. uk.rec.waterways is about 20% about boats, 15% about waterways
history and features and 65% about how to configure microsoft
newsreaders and avoid spam. At least, that's what it feels like.

Pity that you haven't learnt How To Trim from that 65% of content.

(OTOH, at least you didn't top-post, unlike some other respondents in
this thread.)

--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
"We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are
untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919