-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

rename unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

Newsgroup line:
uk.boats.motor All aspects of motor boating in the UK


*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***
*** CROSSPOSTED TO UK.REC.BOATS.POWER ***

This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.

RATIONALE: uk.boats.motor

Prior to 1998 there were no newsgroups covering powered boats in the UK.
Sailing was covered by uk.rec.sailing, whilst uk.rec.waterways dealt
with waterways in general. Motor cruisers, sports boats, speed boats and
in fact any powered craft were not covered by any UK newsgroup. As a
result, uk.rec.boats.power was created in August 1998.

However, since it's creation the number of posts has been rather small
compared with uk.rec.sailing, especially considering the approximate
50-50 split between power and sail in the UK. Comments by regular and
new participants indicate that the name was a poor choice - power seems
to imply racing or high performance craft. "Motor" is more of a generic
term which would attract the users that were the intended audience of
uk.rec.boats.power in the first instance. Hence the request to rename
uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

PROPOSAL (to be activated in two stages)

1. Create a new unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.motor with the
following charter

CHARTER: uk.boats.motor

uk.rec.boats.motor will discuss motor boating in UK waters and the
activities of UK motor boaters elsewhere. Motor boat sports (eg racing
and water skiing) are valid topics except where covered by a more
specific group.

Advertising

Advertising is forbidden, with these exceptions:

Suppliers of goods and services relevant to Motor Boats in the UK may
post an invitation to visit their web site or request details. It should
be of four lines or fewer and not posted more than once every 3 months.
The subject line should begin "ADVERT: ". Private adverts are welcome
but must not exceed one post per subject or user per week.

Binaries & Formatting

Encoded binaries (e.g. pictures, compressed files, etc.) are forbidden.
Such material belongs on a web or FTP site to which a pointer may be
posted. Cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP) may be used where
authentication is important and should be as short as possible.

Posts must be readable as plain text. HTML, RTF and similarly formatted
messages are prohibited. To see how to make some common newsreaders
comply with this, read http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html.

END CHARTER

2. Remove existing unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power, this to be
delayed at the discretion of Control until the bulk of discussion has
moved to the new group.

PROCEDU

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until December 22nd) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method. Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce.
Please refer to this document if you have any questions about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
uk.net.news.announce
uk.net.news.config
uk.rec.boats.power

Proponent:
Nick Smeltzer

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On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:53:16 +0000, Nick Smeltzer
wrote:

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

rename unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

[...]

RATIONALE: uk.boats.motor

[...]

However, since it's creation the number of posts has been rather small
compared with uk.rec.sailing, especially considering the approximate
50-50 split between power and sail in the UK. Comments by regular and
new participants indicate that the name was a poor choice - power seems
to imply racing or high performance craft. "Motor" is more of a generic
term which would attract the users that were the intended audience of
uk.rec.boats.power in the first instance. Hence the request to rename
uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

PROPOSAL (to be activated in two stages)

1. Create a new unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.motor with the
following charter

Would there be any benefit in keeping both groups running - the power
group for power boat racing et al and the motor group for standard
motor boating?

Andrew.

In article , Andrew Hodgson
writes

1. Create a new unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.motor with the
following charter

Would there be any benefit in keeping both groups running - the power
group for power boat racing et al and the motor group for standard
motor boating?

Possibly, but I don't think there would be enough traffic on .power
(currently around 10 posts per week give or take a few) - hence the
rename request in the first place! Racing etc could be discussed in
..motor (allowed in the charter) until such time as the amount of traffic
warrantied a new group and then following the big 8 format, it would be
uk.rec.boats.racing.power, uk.rec.boats.racing.dingy, uk.rec.waterski
etc.

Of course the charter of .power could be changed to avoid confusion. I
don't know if it would do any harm to leave it be with a new charter??

Just my thoughts...
--
Nick-s @ blueyonder . co . uk

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:53:16 +0000, Nick Smeltzer
wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

rename unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

Newsgroup line:
uk.boats.motor All aspects of motor boating in the UK


*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***
*** CROSSPOSTED TO UK.REC.BOATS.POWER ***

This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.

RATIONALE: uk.boats.motor

Prior to 1998 there were no newsgroups covering powered boats in the UK.
Sailing was covered by uk.rec.sailing, whilst uk.rec.waterways dealt
with waterways in general. Motor cruisers, sports boats, speed boats and
in fact any powered craft were not covered by any UK newsgroup. As a
result, uk.rec.boats.power was created in August 1998.

However, since it's creation the number of posts has been rather small
compared with uk.rec.sailing, especially considering the approximate
50-50 split between power and sail in the UK. Comments by regular and
new participants indicate that the name was a poor choice - power seems
to imply racing or high performance craft. "Motor" is more of a generic
term which would attract the users that were the intended audience of
uk.rec.boats.power in the first instance. Hence the request to rename
uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

You talk about attracting the intended audience.

That seems entirely backwards to me. Is there a subset of motor
boaters who feel they don't have a group to post to? What sort of
motor boats are we talking here?

As an owner of a motor boat (specifically a canal narrowboat), I
certainly don't feel a need for a group, and indeed would oppose such
a move on the basis that it might detract from uk.rec.waterways.

Why was this RFD not crossposted to uk.rec.waterways?

--
Dave Mayall

"Nick Smeltzer" wrote in message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following
changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

rename unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power to
uk.rec.boats.motor

Newsgroup line:
uk.boats.motor All aspects of motor boating in the UK


*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***
*** CROSSPOSTED TO UK.REC.BOATS.POWER ***

This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.

RATIONALE: uk.boats.motor

Prior to 1998 there were no newsgroups covering powered boats in the
UK.
Sailing was covered by uk.rec.sailing, whilst uk.rec.waterways dealt
with waterways in general. Motor cruisers, sports boats, speed boats
and
in fact any powered craft were not covered by any UK newsgroup. As a
result, uk.rec.boats.power was created in August 1998.

However, since it's creation the number of posts has been rather small
compared with uk.rec.sailing, especially considering the approximate
50-50 split between power and sail in the UK. Comments by regular and
new participants indicate that the name was a poor choice - power
seems
to imply racing or high performance craft. "Motor" is more of a
generic
term which would attract the users that were the intended audience of
uk.rec.boats.power in the first instance. Hence the request to rename
uk.rec.boats.power to uk.rec.boats.motor

PROPOSAL (to be activated in two stages)

1. Create a new unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.motor with the
following charter

CHARTER: uk.boats.motor

uk.rec.boats.motor will discuss motor boating in UK waters and the
activities of UK motor boaters elsewhere. Motor boat sports (eg racing
and water skiing) are valid topics except where covered by a more
specific group.

Advertising

Advertising is forbidden, with these exceptions:

Suppliers of goods and services relevant to Motor Boats in the UK may
post an invitation to visit their web site or request details. It
should
be of four lines or fewer and not posted more than once every 3
months.
The subject line should begin "ADVERT: ". Private adverts are welcome
but must not exceed one post per subject or user per week.

Binaries & Formatting

Encoded binaries (e.g. pictures, compressed files, etc.) are
forbidden.
Such material belongs on a web or FTP site to which a pointer may be
posted. Cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP) may be used where
authentication is important and should be as short as possible.

Posts must be readable as plain text. HTML, RTF and similarly
formatted
messages are prohibited. To see how to make some common newsreaders
comply with this, read http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html.

END CHARTER

2. Remove existing unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power, this to
be
delayed at the discretion of Control until the bulk of discussion
has
moved to the new group.

PROCEDU

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until December 22nd) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method.
Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group
Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in
uk.net.news.announce.
Please refer to this document if you have any questions about the
process.

DISTRIBUTION:

This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
uk.net.news.announce
uk.net.news.config
uk.rec.boats.power

Proponent:
Nick Smeltzer


I'm not a boater, but occassionally I visit some boating group to ask a
question.

I thought uk.rec.boats.power was only for people who raced boats, as in
power-boat racing. So, from my point of view, I think a change would be
beneficial.

In article , Richard
wrote:

"Nick Smeltzer" wrote in message
...

rename unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power to
uk.rec.boats.motor

Newsgroup line:
uk.boats.motor All aspects of motor boating in the UK

I thought uk.rec.boats.power was only for people who raced boats, as in
power-boat racing. So, from my point of view, I think a change would be
beneficial.

Imo 'Power' implies a motive force other than muscles or nature. In other
words some sort of motor. The speed generated is immaterial.

So while I see no need for a change I won't object - but it feels like
pointless meddling.

Cheerio,

--

Nick wrote:
In article , Andrew Hodgson
writes

1. Create a new unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.motor with the
following charter

Would there be any benefit in keeping both groups running - the power
group for power boat racing et al and the motor group for standard
motor boating?

Possibly, but I don't think there would be enough traffic on .power
(currently around 10 posts per week give or take a few) - hence the
rename request in the first place! Racing etc could be discussed in
.motor (allowed in the charter) until such time as the amount of traffic
warrantied a new group and then following the big 8 format, it would be
uk.rec.boats.racing.power, uk.rec.boats.racing.dingy, uk.rec.waterski
etc.

Of course the charter of .power could be changed to avoid confusion. I
don't know if it would do any harm to leave it be with a new charter??

Just my thoughts...

I think this is the wrong approach. If the the problem is not enough posts,
then changing the name is not the solution. A new group should be created
because there is a need or demand for it, not because there is not a demand
(or need) for an existing group.
--
John Briggs

John 12/12/2003 13:41:39
Nick wrote:
In article , Andrew Hodgson
writes


I think this is the wrong approach. If the the problem is not enough posts,
then changing the name is not the solution. A new group should be created
because there is a need or demand for it, not because there is not a demand
(or need) for an existing group.
--
John Briggs

There is a demand. Look at the amount of posts uk.rec.sailing gets and compare it to the few posts uk.rec.boats.power gets and remember that the split between sail and power is roughly equal. Of course, there may be other reasons why u.r.b.power only attracts a tenth of the posts of u.r.sailing. Perhaps more sailors have internet access - or motor boats are so unreliable that we can't afford a PC or don't have any time left in the week to get on the net. But I doubt it. I still think it is the name and I still think there is the demand:

I have carried out my own non-scientific research - asking users that participate why they joined the group, how long it took them before noticing the group and joining it, asking in UK web-based boating forums why people don't post to u.r.b.power, asking those who post to the US biased rec.boats why they don't post to uk.rec.boats.power. And without exception, every single person that expressed an opinion said that the name .power had put them off - they thought it was a racing group. Those that did subscribe did so because they couldn't find one that dealt with motor boats and it was that or nothing. Of course I now risk someone turning round and saying "that's rubbish, I like it the way it is" but that is what I have found since I first started looking into it around 8 months ago.

Of course, I accept responsibility since it was I that proposed the original group and came up with the .power name in 1998. But as they say, you can't be right 100% of the time (or any of the time according to my other half

Nick wrote:
John 12/12/2003 13:41:39
Nick wrote:
In article , Andrew Hodgson
writes


I think this is the wrong approach. If the the problem is not enough
posts,
then changing the name is not the solution. A new group should be
created
because there is a need or demand for it, not because there is not a
demand (or need) for an existing group.
--
John Briggs

There is a demand. Look at the amount of posts uk.rec.sailing gets and
compare it to the few posts uk.rec.boats.power gets and remember that the
split between sail and power is roughly equal. Of course, there may be
other reasons why u.r.b.power only attracts a tenth of the posts of
u.r.sailing. Perhaps more sailors have internet access - or motor boats
are so unreliable that we can't afford a PC or don't have any time left
in the week to get on the net. But I doubt it. I still think it is the
name and I still think there is the demand:

I have carried out my own non-scientific research - asking users that
participate why they joined the group, how long it took them before
noticing the group and joining it, asking in UK web-based boating forums
why people don't post to u.r.b.power, asking those who post to the US
biased rec.boats why they don't post to uk.rec.boats.power. And without
exception, every single person that expressed an opinion said that the
name .power had put them off - they thought it was a racing group. Those
that did subscribe did so because they couldn't find one that dealt with
motor boats and it was that or nothing. Of course I now risk someone
turning round and saying "that's rubbish, I like it the way it is" but
that is what I have found since I first started looking into it around 8
months ago.

Of course, I accept responsibility since it was I that proposed the
original group and came up with the .power name in 1998. But as they say,
you can't be right 100% of the time (or any of the time according to my
other half

You seem to have a curious idea of demand! What we do not see is hordes of
people saying "Yes, this is a good idea, I will subscribe". If you really
thought that your potential audience was waiting (impatiently!) in
rec.boats, you should have included that group in the RFD.
--
John Briggs

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:48:43 +0100,
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:55:16 +0000, "Derek.Moody"
wrote:

In article , Richard
wrote:

"Nick Smeltzer" wrote in message
...

rename unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.boats.power to
uk.rec.boats.motor

Newsgroup line:
uk.boats.motor All aspects of motor boating in the UK

I thought uk.rec.boats.power was only for people who raced boats, as in
power-boat racing. So, from my point of view, I think a change would be
beneficial.

Imo 'Power' implies a motive force other than muscles or nature. In other
words some sort of motor. The speed generated is immaterial.

So while I see no need for a change I won't object - but it feels like
pointless meddling.

Most motor boat owners post to uk.rec.waterways.
uk.rec.boats.power has never had much traffic.
uk.rec.waterways isn't the most obvious name for a boat group, yet
many boat owners use it.
Changing the name won't add to the traffic. I don't see a need for
further fragmentation of the uk.rec. boat groups.

As a subscriber to uk.rec.waterways, may I comment on the above?

"uk.rec.waterways" is the obvious name for a waterways group, which is
what the group in question is. In other words, it is concerned with
inland navigation and navigations.

It is not a boat group, although indeed a number of its subscribers
are boat owners.

Few owners of non-inland-waterway boats post to uk.rec.waterways.
Many power (or motor) boats are non-inland-waterway boats.

Adrian