Steve wrote:
[...]
I think it's useful to use the words "lean" and "edge/heel"
(kayaks edge, open boats heel) separately.

Heeling is used for all kind of boats,
edging is mostly used for kayaks and closed canoes,
and leaning is mostly for open canoes, also because
the action of leaning is more a kneeling thing, I suppose,
but it also depends on the language one uses:

american english(?): boat lean - body lean
american english: J-lean - bell-buoy lean
english: edging - leaning

See this picture too:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~dbarends/lln.gif

Personally I prefer to use the word 'leaning', because it is easier
to understand what is meant by leaning (to the) right or left,
where edging (to the) left or right gives more room for misinterpretations...
as I have noticed.
Also, in the Netherlands at least, edging right is leaning left, and vice versa,
and that makes it even less desirable to use those words together indeed
to avoid confusion!
Luckily the boats and the water don't care about it at all,
and only know a right or wrong way to do it ;-)

Other interesting article to read about leaning:
http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/1999_2/Skheel.htm

Dirk Barends

Dirk Barends wrote:
Steve wrote:
[...]
I think it's useful to use the words "lean" and "edge/heel"
(kayaks edge, open boats heel) separately.

Personally I prefer to use the word 'leaning', because it is easier
to understand what is meant by leaning (to the) right or left,
where edging (to the) left or right gives more room for misinterpretations...
as I have noticed.

I make the distinction precisely because i want to be able to use the
terms differently. So that I can say to a beginner, for example, "Don't
lean, edge the boat" Unless I'm teaching a low brace turn, which is
leaned, by my definition.

Also, in the Netherlands at least, edging right is leaning left, and vice versa,
and that makes it even less desirable to use those words together indeed
to avoid confusion!

So, you always say "lean" (or "leun"), but then add "boat" or "body" to
the front of it to make your meaning clear. That should work I like my
way better, but I wouldn't want to talk you out of yours. The important
thing is consistency. If "lean" can mean two things, saying "Lean!" is
ambiguous. "Lean the boat!" isn't.

Other interesting article to read about leaning:
http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/1999_2/Skheel.htm

Note that Mark uses the terms "boat lean" or "J-lean" a couple of times
initially, then abandons the word and uses "heel" for the rest of the
article. That's consistent with the way he teaches in person, IIRC.

Steve

Steve wrote:
[...]
So, you always say "lean" (or "leun"), but then add "boat" or "body" to
the front of it to make your meaning clear.

Yes, but since I prefer a 'boat lean" (edging) over a "body lean"
in most situations,
when I am certain that it is clear that I mean a "boat lean",
I just say 'lean' (right or left).
Although I am well aware that for some kind of boats (very/too stable ones)
and situations, to get enough "boat lean", more or less "body lean" is
unavoidable though. In that case, the ability to brace (recovery in the UK?)
is certainly required, in my view and experience...

Dirk Barends

Pople are getting a bit too bitchy with each other for my liking, and a
bit too technical for my liking.

If you're in a long boat edge away fom the direction you want to turn;
if you're in a short boat edge toward the direction you want to turn.

Or, to avoid confusing the dutch: if you're in a marathon boat and want
to turn left, put all your weight on your right bum cheek.

Dom Murphy wrote:
Pople are getting a bit too bitchy with each other for my liking, and a
bit too technical for my liking.

Bitchy? Moi? I thought this was a very respectful exchange of views.
Technical? Well, only if you don't care why it works.

If you're in a long boat edge away fom the direction you want to turn;
if you're in a short boat edge toward the direction you want to turn.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Or, to avoid confusing the dutch: if you're in a marathon boat and want
to turn left, put all your weight on your right bum cheek.

Yet another way to put it. Thanks.

Steve

Dom Murphy wrote:
Pople are getting a bit too bitchy with each other for my liking, and a
bit too technical for my liking.

If you're in a long boat edge away fom the direction you want to turn;

That's a bit too, errr, /wrong/ for my liking. While it's true for
a carved turn, if I try and break into a strong tidal flow in a 5m
sea kayak using that advice then I'll get very, very wet and very,
very fast.

Long boats can be edged either way, according to the sort of turn
you make and the conditions you do it in.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/